High dose vitamin B1 (thiamine)

[Ravn]

Thanks @JasonUT. Did you get any benefit? How long did it take you to get normal test results?

My doctor tried to order a thiamine test for me before I embarked on my experiment but this was refused so I'm flying blind and have only my symptoms to go by. Maybe I should try telling them I've been overdosing and therefore urgently need a test now This strategy did work for a magnesium test once

Has anybody here been able to judge just from symptoms when/if they can reduce their dose? How?

 

[JasonUT]

Thanks @JasonUT. Did you get any benefit? How long did it take you to get normal test results?

Yes, improved energy and cognition. Improvements seems to be continuing, but at a much much slower pace. I complete a SpectraCell Micronutrient panel every 3 months. With that said, it took one 3 month test cycle to show improved B1 levels with Lipothiamine 400 mg. Additionally, I had several deficiencies which needed to be worked concurrently. There is still work to be done based on my latest results highlighted in post #89.

Has anybody here been able to judge just from symptoms when/if they can reduce their dose? How?

I wish I new an answer to this. I struggle with this everyday.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Ok...not what I was asking.? but coincidentally or not, my labs this week show I am anemic....I'm not clear what the B1 ...anemia connection is>?

Did you find out something about it? Have you improved from anemia?

 

[sb4]

Any updates from people posting in this thread? Are you still taking thiamine?

I stopped taking it for about a month to get the transketolase testing. I also went sort of ketosis around this time. When the test came back it should normal levels of thiamine but deficiency of riboflavin. So I decided to stop taking thiamine and instead do nutritional yeast.

Anyway fast forward to now and I have gone higher carb again but noticed it was accompanied by very hard heart pounding that (sort of) ketosis had mostly resolved. I took some allithiamine and the hard heart pounding went away again, indicating that my body wasn't using glucose well due to POTS and thiamine at least somewhat resolves this. Using allithiamine however has made my sleep significantly worse.

This got me thinking about the transketolase b1 and equivalent b2 test I took. Perhaps transketolase was only taking up "normal" amounts of thiamine because I was on a ketosis diet at the time, reducing the need for thiamine. Perhaps I came up as deficient in riboflavin for the same reason, ribovflavin enzyme needed more riboflaving to deal with higher fat load, making it appear to be deficient. IDK. Depends on how the test works I might email them.

Either way I'm reasonably sure allithiamine helps with the hard heart pounding induced by sugar. Now I'm going to try reducing the negative sleep effects by supplementing B2 + B3 again and going down that rabbit hole.

 

[Asklipia]

Still on high thiamine and very happy with it.

 

[JasonUT]

Any updates from people posting in this thread? Are you still taking thiamine?

Yes, still taking. Definite improvement, but continuous improvement is increasingly slow with time. I probably wouldn't notice if it wasn't for others around me noticing.
150 mg Lipothiamine
Experimenting with an additional 150 mg Allithiamine or 300 mg Benfotiamine

I stopped taking it for about a month to get the transketolase testing.

Where did you get the testing done?

 

[nanonug]

@raghavfursultiamine

Do you mind sharing where you got the fursultiamine (aka, thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide)? It gives all the benefits of allithiamine but without the smell.

 

[Asklipia]

Do you mind sharing where you got the fursultiamine (aka, thiamine tetrahydrofurfuryl disulfide)? It gives all the benefits of allithiamine but without the smell.

Allithiamine is a brand name. Allithiamine is fursultiamine, TTFD.
allithiamine (no capital A) is a natural product that is not for sale, found in garlic.
You can get fursultiamine without the smell when it is locked into a sugar pill, like Lipothiamine (TTFD with coating + ALA) or Alinamin Ex Plus (same TTFD + different vitamins added but no ALA, this is the 33 mg I was talking about).
Alinamin Ex Plus, on amazon.com or ebay, much cheaper on ebay and they have bigger bottles too. Sent from Japan in all cases.

 

[sb4]

Where did you get the testing done?

http://www.biolab.co.uk/print.php/cmsid__biolab_test/Vitamin_B1_(Thiamine)_-_transketolase_activity

You need to send the blood for next day proccessing. Could be tricky if outside UK. Also it's recomended you stop supps for 3 weeks prior.

 

[nanonug]

Allithiamine is a brand name. Allithiamine is fursultiamine, TTFD.

Thank you, @Asklipia. That's what I found out, that Ecological Formulas Allithiamine is indeed fursultiamine/TTFD which is really what I wanted.

 

[frozenborderline]

I took 2 g thiamin hcl, because of reading this:
http://www.resonantfm.com/thiamine-b1-and-chronic-fatigue/

apparently the people in the study needed to take between 1500-1800 before fibromyalgia was totally eliminated, but the results were dramatic.

anyway i felt warmth, tingling, etc.., lots of energy and tension but more a 'wired' feeling than a real cure

and then some muscle pains in various parts of body, finally a sort of crash and more brain fog.

Is there any solid resource for knowing what vitamins thiamin supplementation could deplete?

The sources I have looked at said it's pretty safe, but I just want to be sure. I might wait to really try this until I have doctor's supervision, maybe we can even do IV thiamin

 

[Kathevans]

@debored13 Interesting article. You might begin by having a NutrEval Test to check your metabolites. It tells you, for instance, your level of Pyruvic Acid, as well as your Lactic Acid. A recent test showed mine to be low/normal, lactic acid is 3.8 in a range of 1.9-19.8; and pyruvic 12 in a range of 7-32. I know I have had issues with low thiamin and have benefited from supplementation. But I never felt comfortable in my body (whatever that means!) with very high levels over 200mg of so. I did find that both Allithiamine and Benfotiamin are more effective than regular Thiamine HCL. I take 1 Benfotiamin 150mg/day in 4 divided doses.

There are other things that can cause acidosis: high Glutaric Acid, for example, which I do have - .93 when it ought to be <=.51. Of benefit in this situation is Riboflavin, or B2.

So! These tests do help in figuring out the direction that might assist your body.

@Athene*

 

[frozenborderline]

@debored13 Interesting article. You might begin by having a NutrEval Test to check your metabolites. It tells you, for instance, your level of Pyruvic Acid, as well as your Lactic Acid. A recent test showed mine to be low/normal, lactic acid is 3.8 in a range of 1.9-19.8; and pyruvic 12 in a range of 7-32. I know I have had issues with low thiamin and have benefited from supplementation. But I never felt comfortable in my body (whatever that means!) with very high levels over 200mg of so. I did find that both Allithiamine and Benfotiamin are more effective than regular Thiamine HCL. I take 1 Benfotiamin 150mg/day in 4 divided doses.

There are other things that can cause acidosis: high Glutaric Acid, for example, which I do have - .93 when it ought to be <=.51. Of benefit in this situation is Riboflavin, or B2.

So! These tests do help in figuring out the direction that might assist your body.

@Athene*

Unless covered by insurance, i probably can't afford a test like that. But i'll talk to my doctor

 

[picante]

Is there any solid resource for knowing what vitamins thiamin supplementation could deplete?

From Charles Weber:

http://charles_w.tripod.com/kandthiamin.html
The reverse is also the case. Vitamin B-1 supplements should be dangerous for people with low potassium. Since cell potassium is always low in rheumatoid arthritis [30], such people should not take vitamin B-1 without potassium. This may be part of the reason why people with rheumatoid arthritis (but not osteoarthritis) have a much higher heart disease rate than others [31]. It is not possible to rely on plasma or serum potassium determinations because when the blood of arthritics is drawn the platelets release potassium into the plasma [32]. Even so, 80% of people with rheumatic heart disease have low blood plasma potassium content [33].

Another resource:

http://howirecovered.com/understanding-potassium/
So, if you are ramping up your methylation cycle, keep a bottle of potassium around and know the symptoms of hypokalemia (weakness, lack of energy, muscle cramps, stomach disturbances, an irregular heartbeat, and an abnormal EKG) and hyperkalemia (muscle weakness, slowed heart rate, and abnormal heart rhythm).

Immediately after the above, he quotes Charles Weber.
This potassium/thiamine balance has been vital for me, so I've read up pretty thoroughly on it. I need potassium, but have to be careful, since it lowers my blood pressure. Thiamine helps raise it.

 

[Kathevans]

http://howirecovered.com/understanding-potassium/ is a wonderful resource for all of us. This, in particular, is a very good piece. I hadn't read it before and it makes me think I must look into Potassium Chloride... Thanks, @picante!

 

[frozenborderline]

From Charles Weber:

Another resource:


Immediately after the above, he quotes Charles Weber.
This potassium/thiamine balance has been vital for me, so I've read up pretty thoroughly on it. I need potassium, but have to be careful, since it lowers my blood pressure. Thiamine helps raise it.

with the first link I had trouble finding the specific primary source that states that thiamine depletes potassium. There are a lot of articles cited that are about the effects of thiamine or potassium, or the effect of potassium or magnesium deficiency on thiamine absorption, but I can't find one that suggests that thiamine depletes potassium.


The closest thing I can find is this, but when I put this in google or pubmed I find this
4. Mineno T. Effect of some vitamins and other substances on K metabolism in the myocardia of vitamin deficient rats - Experiemtal investigation. J. Nagoya Med. Assoc. 92: 80-95, 1969. "

 

[Eastman]

I think the concern is that thiamine supplementation induces refeeding syndrome, in which potassium and electrolyte depletion is a possibility. On the other hand, correcting a thiamine deficiency may also normalise electrolyte imbalances. I reported the following earlier in another thread.

Acute thiamine deficiency and refeeding syndrome: Similar findings but different pathogenesis

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
Refeeding syndrome can occur in several contexts of relative malnutrition in which an overaggressive nutritional support is started. The consequences are life threatening with multiorgan impairment, and severe electrolyte imbalances. During refeeding, glucose-involved insulin secretion causes abrupt reverse of lipolysis and a switch from catabolism to anabolism. This creates a sudden cellular demand for electrolytes (phosphate, potassium, and magnesium) necessary for synthesis of adenosine triphosphate, glucose transport, and other synthesis reactions, resulting in decreased serum levels. Laboratory findings and multiorgan impairment similar to refeeding syndrome also are observed in acute thiamine deficiency. The aim of this study was to determine whether thiamine deficiency was responsible for the electrolyte imbalance caused by tubular electrolyte losses.

METHODS:
We describe two patients with leukemia who developed acute thiamine deficiency with an electrolyte pattern suggestive of refeeding syndrome, severe lactic acidosis, and evidence of proximal renal tubular dysfunction.

RESULTS:
A single thiamine administration led to rapid resolution of the tubular dysfunction and normalization of acidosis and electrolyte imbalance. This demonstrated that thiamine deficiency was responsible for the electrolyte imbalance, caused by tubular electrolyte losses.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our study indicates that, despite sharing many laboratory similarities, refeeding syndrome and acute thiamine deficiency should be viewed as separate entities in which the electrolyte abnormalities reported in cases of refeeding syndrome with thiamine deficiency and refractory lactic acidosis may be due to renal tubular losses instead of a shifting from extracellular to intracellular compartments. In oncologic and malnourished patients, individuals at particular risk for developing refeeding syndrome, in the presence of these biochemical abnormalities, acute thiamine deficiency should be suspected and treated because it promptly responds to thiamine administration.

A similar finding from this case report:

Thiamin and folic acid deficiency accompanied by resistant electrolyte imbalance in the re-feeding syndrome in an elderly patient

 

[picante]

with the first link I had trouble finding the specific primary source that states that thiamine depletes potassium. There are a lot of articles cited that are about the effects of thiamine or potassium, or the effect of potassium or magnesium deficiency on thiamine absorption, but I can't find one that suggests that thiamine depletes potassium.

Would it perhaps be more direct to determine whether you have symptoms of potassium deficiency? And if you do, take/eat potassium to see if you've correctly identified the symptoms? And see whether they occur after taking thiamine, or does something else play in? And does lowering your thiamine dose help?

The refeeding phenomenon @Eastman is talking about necessitates a new balancing act whenever it happens. Perhaps it's some other nutrient getting depleted, so in my approach, I wind up going on a symptom search first. I've got a supplement log 4 years long.

Personally, I love finding the scientific evidence to back up the hypothesis I've made, but unfortunately we can't always rely on science to ask the questions we want answered, or to do studies that actually apply to the human body, or to tell us what happens in our own body. Am I part of the 70% who respond to a substance, or part of the 30% who do not? There's one way to find out quickly.

 

[frozenborderline]

Would it perhaps be more direct to determine whether you have symptoms of potassium deficiency? And if you do, take/eat potassium to see if you've correctly identified the symptoms? And see whether they occur after taking thiamine, or does something else play in? And does lowering your thiamine dose help?

The refeeding phenomenon @Eastman is talking about necessitates a new balancing act whenever it happens. Perhaps it's some other nutrient getting depleted, so in my approach, I wind up going on a symptom search first. I've got a supplement log 4 years long.

Personally, I love finding the scientific evidence to back up the hypothesis I've made, but unfortunately we can't always rely on science to ask the questions we want answered, or to do studies that actually apply to the human body, or to tell us what happens in our own body. Am I part of the 70% who respond to a substance, or part of the 30% who do not? There's one way to find out quickly.

I consume more than the RDA for potassium. My concern is that the symptoms I'm having from thiamine could be induced by almost anything. This is why I'm interested in the scientific approach and knowing what deficiences thiamine is actually knonw to cause.

 

[frozenborderline]

Would it perhaps be more direct to determine whether you have symptoms of potassium deficiency? And if you do, take/eat potassium to see if you've correctly identified the symptoms? And see whether they occur after taking thiamine, or does something else play in? And does lowering your thiamine dose help?

The refeeding phenomenon @Eastman is talking about necessitates a new balancing act whenever it happens. Perhaps it's some other nutrient getting depleted, so in my approach, I wind up going on a symptom search first. I've got a supplement log 4 years long.

Personally, I love finding the scientific evidence to back up the hypothesis I've made, but unfortunately we can't always rely on science to ask the questions we want answered, or to do studies that actually apply to the human body, or to tell us what happens in our own body. Am I part of the 70% who respond to a substance, or part of the 30% who do not? There's one way to find out quickly.

I consume more than the RDA for potassium. My concern is that the symptoms I'm having from thiamine could be induced by almost anything. This is why I'm interested in the scientific approach and knowing what deficiences thiamine is actually knonw to cause.