High-Dose Selenium Significantly Improves My Fatigue and Brain Fog

[seamyb]

It could relate to methylation, but high-dose methylcobalamin is shown to promote nerve regeneration, shown to protect against glutamate-induced neurotoxicity, and is known to boost natural killer cell and CD8 cell immunity (which would help fight viral infections). So there are other possible explanations for its mild benefits in ME/CFS.

I'm putting my fingers in my ears in the hope that I'm cured soon. Your poll did show 2 people who believed they were. Although I've thought I was cured several times as well. Yet here I am.

 

[Hip]

It's certainly worth trying. I tried Rich's methylation protocol (unfortunately did not work for me). There are other treatment options that you can try if it does not help. See: list of ME/CFS recovery and improvement stories.

 

[cogent_thought]

The effect of selenium on the central dopaminergic system: a microdialysis study

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9307047/

It was concluded from the present study that Se's central action might be related to its ability to potentiate DA function.

Seems like this might be part of the mechanism people experience. I suspect it's the majority for me.

 

[Hip]

Seems like this might be part of the mechanism people experience. I suspect it's the majority for me.

That's very interesting, I've added this synaptic dopamine level boosting effect of selenium to the first post in this thread.

Maybe people who are benefiting from Abilify could try selenium, as low-dose Abilify also increases dopamine levels in the synapse.

 

[Actium]

I started taking 200-300 mcg of sodium selenite few days ago and can see massive improvements in mental acuity and fatigue, hope they will last.

 

[Hip]

I started taking 200-300 mcg of sodium selenite few days ago and can see massive improvements in mental acuity and fatigue, hope they will last.

Interesting. In my case it took 10 days of high-dose selenium supplementation before the improvements in energy and brain fog reached full manifestation.

Is it selenite you are taking, or the more common selenate? Both have bioavailability of around 50%, so you are losing half your dose. Whereas selenomethionine on an empty stomach has nearly 100% bioavailability.

 

[Actium]

Interesting. In my case it took 10 days of high-dose selenium supplementation before the improvements in energy and brain fog reached full manifestation.

Is it selenite you are taking, or the more common selenate? Both have bioavailability of around 50%, so you are losing half your dose. Whereas selenomethionine on an empty stomach has nearly 100% bioavailability.

I'm wondering if it's from improved conversion of T4 -> T3. I never had my T3 levels tested, TSH was slightly elevated (around 3.0 mU/L?) but T4 normal. I took Selenite, started taking it in the form as it was described here. Looks like he argues that efficacy of selenomethionine is minimal, I have no idea myself.

 

[uglevod]

Tx @Hip, additionally selenium could restore immunocompetence of macrophages, so no wonder immune system starts to panic in case of its deficiency and as a result overload body with pro infl cytokines like it always prefers to do in many other cases like low levels of vitamins, other minerals...

..

Selenium, Selenoproteins and Viral Infection
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6769590/

Selenium, Selenoproteins and Viral Replication

It is now recognized that the nutritional status of the host plays a leading role in the defense against infectious diseases [93,94,95,96,97]. Many studies show that nutritionally deficient humans or animals are more susceptible to a wide variety of infections. For a long time, researchers have believed that this was only the result of an impaired host immune response due to the deficiency of a particular nutritional element. However, as described below, the mechanism is more complex in that nutritional deficiency impacts not only the immune response of the host but also the viral pathogen itself. Thus, dietary selenium deficiency that causes oxidative stress in the host can alter a viral genome, so that a normally benign or mildly pathogenic virus becomes highly virulent in the deficient host under oxidative stress. This phenomenon has been reported in animal models for influenza and coxsackie viruses [95,98,99], but the molecular mechanism remains unclear. Once the viral mutations occur, even hosts with normal diet would be sensitive to the newly pathogenic strain. The link between selenium levels and viral infection has been reported for many viral groups, see Table 1.

...

Dietary Selenium in Adjuvant Therapy of Viral and Bacterial Infections
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4288282/

...

Iodine and Selenium as Antiviral Agents: Potential Relevance to SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19
https://scholars.direct/Articles/or...-3-012.php?jid=oral-and-maxillofacial-surgery

Observational studies have associated higher selenium status with better recovery from COVID-19 and poorer selenium status is associated with COVID-19 death. In-vitro evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 reduces the expression of selenoproteins that protect against viral disease.

The Essential Role of Selenoproteins in the Resolution of Citrobacter rodentium-Induced Intestinal Inflammation
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2020.00096/full

Selenoproteins in Macrophages Are Crucial for Survival From Infection

Given that macrophages are one of the major producers of PGE2 and 15d-PGJ2 (15) and also serve as innate immune cells that play a central role in combatting enteric microbial infections (37), we examined whether selenoproteins in macrophages were a critical component in combating the infection.

 

[Sancar]

@ugelov

I'm wondering if it's from improved conversion of T4 -> T3. I never had my T3 levels tested, TSH was slightly elevated (around 3.0 mU/L?) but T4 normal. I took Selenite, started taking it in the form as it was described here. Looks like he argues that efficacy of selenomethionine is minimal, I have no idea myself.

Hello Uglov ! First of all Thank you for your continued supply of helpful information to the forum!

I suffer w Coxsackie BV. I have tried selenium in the past 200 mg or mcg? 2x a day for 2-3 months w/o nitice of any change. HOWEVER I TRULY would APPRECIATE knowing what brand and what dose of selenium you are talking. I see you referred to “Selenomethionine”. Are there ‘brands’ here in the states that we could order that form? Is that what youve found to work best? Any reply from OTHERS WITH SUCCESS? I realize (at least for myself) that one should build up ro a “high or higher dose” of any supplement then give it time to see if it has benefits.

[GROUP=][/GROUP]
I know with myself I have had to search out different (quality) brands/formulas to find effective supplements. We are all ‘different’ in regards to what works or we find hepls us. YET I would greatly appreciate you AND / OR ANYONE WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS WITH SELENIUM adding THERE POSITIVE EXPERIENCE with the dose and product that “works for them”. Not to be taken as “One size fits” all!

THANKS VERY MUCH!!! [GROUP=][GROUP=][/GROUP][/GROUP]

 

[Pyrrhus]

HOWEVER I TRULY would APPRECIATE knowing what brand and what dose of selenium you are talking. I see you referred to “Selenomethionine”.

You may be interested in post #244:
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...igue-and-brain-fog.27401/page-13#post-2256412

 

[Hip]

Very interesting, @uglevod. I have added a note to the first post in this thread that selenium promotes the antiviral Th1 immune response, and the more anti-inflammatory M2 phenotype of macrophages, as the study you quoted indicates.

 

[DrUniverse]

Interesting. In my case it took 10 days of high-dose selenium supplementation before the improvements in energy and brain fog reached full manifestation.

Is it selenite you are taking, or the more common selenate? Both have bioavailability of around 50%, so you are losing half your dose. Whereas selenomethionine on an empty stomach has nearly 100% bioavailability.

I made some controversial experience, sodium selenite is superior to Selen methionin.
Its stated that sodium selenite is more bioactive, i feel it few Minutes after ingestion whereas i feel Selen methionin after hours. My Information says Selen methionin is more for "depot"

 

[Jyoti]

In my case, 400 mcg of selenium daily brought me from moderate to severe ME/CFS, to moderate to mild. So I would rate that as a ½-level improvement on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate, severe.

My experience as well. I took 400 mcg of selenium (as yeast free seleno-methionine) for three months last spring. I experienced markedly enhanced levels of energy and decreased incidents of PEM despite doing significantly more than has been my norm. In fact, I would say I may have had a full level of improvement on the scale, from the severe end of moderate to the moderate end of mild. It was lovely.

But then my hair started falling out in clumps and I lost a toenail without any other apparent cause. I stopped taking selenium and within a few days entered a very dark six months. Like @Hip, the effect was so clear for me. No mistaking it.

A month ago I reintroduced selenium (my hair and nails now almost back to normal) at 200 mcg per day. Nothing noticeable. I amped it up to 400 last week and I simply have something in the range of 25% more energy, endurance and ability. Within a couple of days it was apparent.

Now the challenge is figuring out how to keep the selenium and dump the side effects! I think I may try the methyl-selene-cysteine next and possibly try @Pyrrhus plan for twice weekly doses. In any case, I am really grateful for this thread and all who have experimented and contributed.

 

[Hip]

A month ago I reintroduced selenium (my hair and nails now almost back to normal) at 200 mcg per day. Nothing noticeable. I amped it up to 400 last week and I simply have something in the range of 25% more energy, endurance and ability. Within a couple of days it was apparent.

This is my experience too: the dose of 200 mcg a day does not do much, but once you hit the 400 mcg daily dose level, some powerful improvements in ME/CFS symptoms appear.



Regarding selenium and hair loss, this article says:

excess amounts of selenium can also contribute to hair loss in some individuals. According to researchers at the University of Surrey, consuming too much selenium creates too many antioxidant enzymes. This surplus of antioxidant enzymes causes the body to attack its own cells, including those in hair follicles. This can result in patchy hair loss.

And this article says:

"People can overdose on selenium supplements," Neabore said. In 2008, a liquid dietary supplement that was 200 times more concentrated than advertised led to selenium poisoning in more than 200 people in 10 states. The most common effects were diarrhea, fatigue, hair loss, joint pail, brittle nails and nausea. A third of the people affected continued to experience symptoms 90 days after taking the mislabeled supplements.

Taking too much selenium over time can lead to selenosis, which can cause hair loss, nail loss, nausea, irritability, fatigue and some nerve damage. Other symptoms of chronic selenium overdose are a metallic taste in the mouth, and a garlic scent on the breath. A selenium overdose can cause skin lesions and nervous system abnormalities. In severe cases, selenium toxicity can cause tremors, kidney failure, cardiac failure, respiratory distress or even death. Luckily, selenosis is rare in the United States.

The Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board caps the safe daily intake of selenium at 45 micrograms for infants, 60 to 90 micrograms in toddlers, 150 to 280 micrograms in prepubescent children and 400 micrograms in adults.

Perhaps the methylselenocysteine might have less side effects than L-selenomethionine.

 

[GlassCannonLife]

I'm wondering if it's from improved conversion of T4 -> T3. I never had my T3 levels tested, TSH was slightly elevated (around 3.0 mU/L?) but T4 normal. I took Selenite, started taking it in the form as it was described here. Looks like he argues that efficacy of selenomethionine is minimal, I have no idea myself.

I'm just jumping into this thread here so I'm not sure if it's been covered. I believe T4 -> T3 conversion occurs predominantly peripherally in tissues, is that not the case?

From what I understand, selenium is very useful for aiding healthy thyroid function as it is intimately involved in glutathione recycling, and thyroid hormone synthesis in the gland is a highly oxidative process that requires a lot of glutathione

 

[Jyoti]

Just adding---I find, like @Hip, that I get the best results from all 400 mcg first thing in the morning, just before coffee . When I re-started the higher dose recently I thought I would split it, but found I had somewhat increased difficulty sleeping and less increased energy.

 

[Violeta]

Do you have any thoughts on peroxynitrite? I just ran across information about selenium being a successful antioxidant for peroxynitrite. Just a thought.

And then there's this:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987798908258
M. L. Pall

The etiology of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) has been both obscure and highly contentious, leading to substantial barriers to both clear diagnosis and effective treatment. I propose here a novel hypothesis of CFS in which either viral or bacterial infection induces one or more cytokines, IL-1β, IL-6, TNF-α and IFN-γ. These induce nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), leading to increased nitric oxide levels. Nitric oxide, in turn, reacts with superoxide radical to generate the potent oxidant peroxynitrite. Multiple amplification and positive feedback mechanisms are proposed by which once peroxynitrite levels are elevated, they tend to be sustained at a high level. This proposed mechanism may lower the HPA axis activity and be maintained by consequent lowered glucocorticoid levels. Similarities are discussed among CFS and autoimmune and other diseases previously shown to be associated with elevated peroxynitrite. Multiple pharmacological approaches to the treatment of CFS are suggested by this hypothesis.

 

[Hip]

Do you have any thoughts on peroxynitrite? I just ran across information about selenium being a successful antioxidant for peroxynitrite. Just a thought.

Interesting you should say that, because some months back I discovered that I get an energizing and anti-brain fog effect from methylfolate, and methylfolate is a strong peroxynitrite scavenger according to this paper.

And just like with selenium, I find these benefits of methylfolate are not observed immediately, but take around a week to kick in.

The downside is that I find methylfolate can be over-stimulating, so that you are energized, productive and mentally focused, but do not feel relaxed, which I do not like. However, that's with high doses of methylfolate. If I keep to lower doses of 50 to 100 mcg daily, the overstimulation is minimized.

Some people on this thread also reported high dose selenium caused overstimulation, and for that reason had to stop it. I don't get this problem with selenium, only with methylfolate. That overstimulation might also be from overmethylation, since methylfolate boosts methylation.

 

[jmd82]

Hip, you may have changed my life and i want to seriously thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I want to start off by saying i have been dealing with CFS for about 20 years now. I have seen countless doctors have tried tons of medications, spent enough money on every supplement under the sun all with no effect on my fatigue levels. I literally had to live on caffeine and nuvigil everyday if i wanted to be able to force myself to stay awake for the day and even then i could hardly stay awake most times.

I found this thread a little over a week ago and decided to give it a try. i began taking the life extension brand on 1/23 and within 3 days started having really bad stomach pains and stomach issues. I assumed it was a stomach virus but as the days went on and it didn't get any better i began to realize it is probably the selenium. I took a day off from it and my stomach pains started to get a little better but my tiredness also returned. The next day i tried taking it with food and it seems like it may be a little better compared to taking it on an empty stomach. My stomach is still not 100% but it feels like it may be getting better.... hopefully.

I have so many questions i do not know where to begin. This is literally 20 + years of tiredness pretty much gone within 1 week by 1 supplement. I still have the undertones of the fatigue which i feel all day long but i do not require constant caffeine pills, i have no major crash in the afternoon and i do not require a nap to make it till bedtime. It literally has made my fatigue extremely manageable and for that I'm so grateful to you Hip, you did more for me than every doctor i have seen in the past for this issue. I do have a few questions which i hope someone could help me answer.

1) If the selenium is upsetting my stomach even with food is there anything i can do about this? I know there are different types of selenium so i was thinking to maybe try switching to a different type but from my short reading it seems the methyl version is healthier? I do think the 400mcg may be a hair too much and would like to try 300mcg but i cant find this methyl version in 100mcg dosages. Is it okay to mix the different types of selenium to make the 300mcg? so 200 of the methyl and 100 of something else? I understand upset stomach is a sign of selenium toxicity but i find it very hard to believe i reached toxic levels after a week of 400mcg per day including my light diet.

2) There are a bunch of supplements you list in the first post which may also provide benefit if the selenium is acting on the body in a certain way. These are the ones you listed
glutathione peroxidase
Genistein
Gynostemma pentaphyllum
I'm very interested in these but i do not want to take more than i should of anything so im not sure how to act on these any input would be appreciated.

3) I would like to find a doctor who would be able to help me in regards to understanding and monitoring me in regards to the selenium to make sure my levels aren't jumping too high. What type of doctor would be best in this topic?

I dont know why its working, or how its working but seriously, thank you. You may have changed my life after 20 years of suffering.

 

[Hip]

This is literally 20 + years of tiredness pretty much gone within 1 week by 1 supplement. I still have the undertones of the fatigue which i feel all day long but i do not require constant caffeine pills, i have no major crash in the afternoon and i do not require a nap to make it till bedtime.

That's great, @jmd82, really pleased that you got such good results. I found selenium made a substantial improvement to my ME/CFS. I was bordering on severe ME/CFS, and selenium took me to the top part of moderate. But unfortunately it has not helped many other ME/CFS patients, so very interesting to hear that selenium worked well for you.

If the selenium is upsetting my stomach even with food is there anything i can do about this?

I guess you could try other forms of selenium. If you are taking the methylselenocysteine form, then you could try the yeast-free selenomethionine form, and see if that makes a difference. There is also the sodium selenate and sodium selenite forms of selenium to try (those these two are not as well absorbed, so you may need slightly higher doses to compensate).

You could also try taking selenium in smaller divided doses throughout the day, preferably between meals (as selenium is best absorbed on an empty stomach).

So you could take 100 mcg in the morning, 100 mcg in the afternoon, and say 200 mcg before bed.


You also experiment with lower doses, such 300 mcg. I found if I used lower doses, the fatigue would return, but you try lowering the dose to the minimum required to get the benefits.

There are a bunch of supplements you list in the first post which may also provide benefit if the selenium is acting on the body in a certain way. These are the ones you listed
glutathione peroxidase
Genistein
Gynostemma pentaphyllum
I'm very interested in these but i do not want to take more than i should of anything so im not sure how to act on these any input would be appreciated.

It's unlikely there would be any harm in adding those supplements to your regimen, so you could try them. I tried genistein 125 mg daily for many weeks, but notice no benefit.

3) I would like to find a doctor who would be able to help me in regards to understanding and monitoring me in regards to the selenium to make sure my levels aren't jumping too high. What type of doctor would be best in this topic?

Probably a functional medicine doctor would be happy to do this.




@jmd82, on the ME/CFS scale of: very severe, severe, moderate, mild, remission , where would you save you were before the selenium treatment, and where did you move up to on this scale after treatment? I always like to try to quantify any gains ME/CFS report they achieve as a result of treatment.