High-Dose Selenium Significantly Improves My Fatigue and Brain Fog

[Aerowallah]

Todd deveoped a "Nutri-plex" multi for his patients, the ingredients of which I can't find, but in 2006 eight years after his death it was "improved" by a colleague and became "Eye-Max" which lists 200 mcg "selenium amino acid chelate" and elsewhere "selenium amino acid complex". I read, technically speaking, selenmethionine is a chelate of selenium, but other formulations listing selenium chelate never seem to specify selenomethionine. They usually don't specify at all, `tho I have seen one instance of selenium glycinate.

An info sheet dated 2003 from Eburon-organics who manufacture selenium compounds, says with maybe a touch of marketing:

Anything called a “chelate ” or “chelated selenium” is to be avoided!!!
True chelates of selenium do not exist in nature and any supplement so labeled is pure
fraud. Do not buy them as you do not know what the selenium form is really contained
within. In the organic selenium amino acids, L-selenomethionine and SEMC
TM Selenium, the selenium is fully integrated into the amino acid itself and is not
“chelated”.

I'll let the chemists work out the semantics. Mfrs of "Eye-Max" might give you more info and we may infer that is the form Dr. Todd used. If it was inorganic, it makes me wonder how many of the upper dosages he cites were from inorganic forms, too, and whether they should be halved for an absorption equivalent to an organic form?

But the more I read there seems to be a consensus around selenomethionine as a superior form that may not have existed in the 1980s and 90s when Dr. Todd developed his multi.

Here is a link to Eburon's release which is interesting reading:

http://www.selenomethionine.com/whichseleniumsupplement.pdf

 

[alicec]

"selenium amino acid chelate" and elsewhere "selenium amino acid complex". I read, technically speaking, selenmethionine is a chelate of selenium, but other formulations listing selenium chelate never seem to specify selenomethionine. They usually don't specify at all, `tho I have seen one instance of selenium glycinate.

Amino acid chelates are usually bis-glycinates. Two molecules of glycine form co-ordinate bonds with a metal ion via their N and C termini. The metal is held in position by two claw-like structure, hence the name (chelate=claw).

Selenomethionine and selenocysteine are definitely not chelates. In these amino acids, the sulfur residue in the side chain is replaced by selenium - ie selenium becomes part of the covalently bonded structure of the amino acid, it is not an add-on. Covalent bonds are much stronger than the coordinate bonds of chelates.

As for the differences in the two as supplements, much of what you quote is probably hype, but it is certainly true that selenomethionine and selenocysteine, not selenium chelates, are the naturally occurring forms.

Dietary selenenium is mainly in the form of selenomethionine as a free amino acid from plants and as selenomethionine and selenocysteine incorporated into proteins from animals.

The biologically active form is selenocysteine incorporated into selenoproteins which act as antioxidants.

Selenomethionine can be randomly incorporated into proteins instead of methionine, but it plays no special role there - it is just a substitute for methionine. More usually it will be processed and the selenium liberated for incorporation into selenocysteine which is the biologically active form.

Supplemented or food-based selenocysteine is also processed to liberate selenium for the de novo synthesis of selenocysteine which occurs as it is being incorporated into proteins ( there is a special codon for selenocysteine and its inclusion in proteins is genetically coded - not random as with selenomethionine). There is no special advantage to selenocysteine supplements.

There seem to be conflicting information about selenium chelates - ie they are or are not stable. I don't know anything about this but I do know that selenium isn't a true metal, so maybe there is some problem with forming chelates.

I would like to see some proper scientific studies on selenium chelates, not commercial hype, before I was convinced that they are superior to selenomethione and selenocysteine supplements which are known to be very well absorbed and are the forms we usually encounter.

 

[Hip]

I would doubt if the specific form of selenium taken makes much difference. But the form of selenium does effect absorption. Selenomethionine and Se-methyl-L-selenocysteine are close to 100% absorbed (when taken on an empty stomach).

Whereas sodium selenate absorption is only around 50%. So you would need to take a high dose if you were using sodium selenate.

 

[chiefrocka]

High Dose Selenium Significantly Improves My Fatigue and Brain Fog

High dose selenium significantly improves my fatigue levels, and noticeably reduces my brain fog. I have consistently found selenium to be the best single supplement or drug I have tried for ME/CFS.

I found that it requires a high(ish) dose of 400 mcg of selenium each day before these benefits manifest. The best form of selenium to take is yeast-free selenomethionine, as selenomethionine the best absorbed form of selenium. Selenium must be taken on an empty stomach, to ensure it is properly assimilated.

I found that the improvements in fatigue and brain fog that selenium provides take a while to appear: it takes around 10 days of daily selenium supplementation before these improvements manifest. But these improvements begin to be noticeable by the 10 day stage. This amelioration in fatigue and brain fog is also maintained permanently, provided I continue to supplement with 400 mcg of selenium each day.

Two other people who followed the same selenium protocol as me also said that they found noticeable improvements by 10 days.

Hip, good posts and I am following your advice, have purchased yeast free selenium and NAG. I am willing to try anything at this point, I am desperate for some improvement in my CFS and horrible anxiety.

My question is, do you take NAG with the selenium? I was planning on taking 700mg NAG/400mcg Selenium together in the morning on an empty stomach.

I am also taking Quercetin and saME which I plan to take together later in the day in order not to interfere with the aforementoned dose.

 

[Hip]

My question is, do you take NAG with the selenium? I was planning on taking 700mg NAG/400mcg Selenium together in the morning on an empty stomach.

Yes, that is exactly what I do: I take both first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach (I don't eat breakfast, just a coffee in the morning).

You might want to take higher doses of NAG initially (eg 1400 mg in the morning, with another 700 mg later in the day) if your anxiety is really bad. You can always then lower the dose at a later stage. I take it you have seen the threads I started: Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements! and Non-Standard Anti-Anxiety Treatment.

 

[chiefrocka]

Yes, that is exactly what I do: I take both first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach (I don't eat breakfast, just a coffee in the morning).

You might want to take higher doses of NAG initially (eg 1400 mg in the morning, with another 700 mg later in the day) if your anxiety is really bad. You can always then lower the dose at a later stage. I take it you have seen the threads I started: Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements! and Non-Standard Anti-Anxiety Treatment.

Thanks, I have seen those threads. I never heard of NAG until you mentioned it and I am beginning to focus on advice on fatigue/anxiety from CFS sufferers only as we appear to be a special breed.

I have been tested by a CFS specialist and show activity in HerpesVirus 6 and CMV which he suspected may be a large contributor to my fatigue. But I also have an autoimmune disorder (connective tissue) which in some way must also contribute to my fatigue and anxiety. He put me on Valtrex, I took it for 6 weeks but didn't notice much improvement, if any. While on Valtrex I noticed a developed a weak urine stream and insatiable thirst, so I discontinued using it since I read about kidney issues it may cause. I already have very high creatinine in my kidneys so decided to be careful.

I have CFS + Viral activity + Anxiety. You seem to be in the same boat, could I get a list of all the supplements/meds that you take on a daily basis? Would appreciate it. I've tried just about every recommended supplement but have been unable to find the right combination.

Other than Magnesium, Fish Oil, Quercetin and Hyaluronic Acid everything else I've tried seems to either worsen my fatigue or do nothing. Vitamin B complex and CoQ10 help with energy but cause me bad insomnia, and strangely enough, also insatiable thirst. I can't figure out the thirst issue and what it is correlated to, but drinking a gallon of water and still being thirsty is clearly not healthy.

 

[Hip]

could I get a list of all the supplements/meds that you take on a daily basis? Would appreciate it.

My regular daily drug and supplement protocol is:

N-acetyl-glucosamine 700 mg
Flaxseed oil 15 ml
Turmeric 1000 mg

Amisulpride 12.5 mg
Selenium (Se-methyl-L-selenocysteine, or yeast-free selenomethionine) 400 mcg

Vinpocetine 30 mg
Vitamin B complex

Phosphatidylserine 400 mg
Acetyl-L-carnitine 1000 mg

The top three are my anti-anxiety supplements. Though if I get a bad day and I feel anxiety returning, I will add further anti-anxiety supplements from my list to augment these.

 

[Aerowallah]

[QUOTE="drinking a gallon of water and still being thirsty is clearly not healthy.[/QUOTE]

Chief, drinking a gallon of water and still being thirsty sounds like you've worked up an electrolyte imbalance. Take a look at the RDAs for Ca, Mg, Na and K for starters. Are you getting that amount from foods? Are you salting enough? Do you need to supplement, add salt or trace minerals to water? I'm up to about 400 of selenium (probably only 50% absorbable in this form) and feeling no effect on fatigue. Cut my mag malate from 450 to 250 and increased my sodium to 2000+mg and felt a definite energy boost that is lasting. In addition to being low selenium I have, to my detriment, avoided salt my whole life.

As with many AFers, if low energy is due to low blood pressure tweaking those electrolytes will help. Also for pathogenic viral / bacterial activity and a compromised microbiome I would definitely hit olive leaf and LIVE CULTURE kefir hard, `tho you'll have to look for farms outside the city. Lifeway and powdered culture kefirs (and yogurt) are weak, transient bacteria. Kimchi is a great substitute for Kefir. After your experience with Valtrex you might try a low and slow food route. BTW Selenium is good for attacking biofilm if you have baddies hiding and evading your immune...

 

[chiefrocka]

My regular daily drug and supplement protocol is:

N-acetyl-glucosamine 700 mg
Flaxseed oil 15 ml
Turmeric 1000 mg

Amisulpride 12.5 mg
Selenium (Se-methyl-L-selenocysteine, or yeast-free selenomethionine) 400 mcg

Vinpocetine 30 mg
Vitamin B complex

Phosphatidylserine 400 mg
Acetyl-L-carnitine 1000 mg

The top three are my anti-anxiety supplements. Though if I get a bad day and I feel anxiety returning, I will add further anti-anxiety supplements from my list to augment these.

Great. Please tell me what brand of flaxseed you take? I tried turmeric but I get a strange reaction every time which didn't subside so I discontinued use. Also took L Carnitine and it made me very manic and irritable so I discontinued that also.

 

[chiefrocka]

[QUOTE="drinking a gallon of water and still being thirsty is clearly not healthy.

Chief, drinking a gallon of water and still being thirsty sounds like you've worked up an electrolyte imbalance. Take a look at the RDAs for Ca, Mg, Na and K for starters. Are you getting that amount from foods? Are you salting enough? Do you need to supplement, add salt or trace minerals to water? I'm up to about 400 of selenium (probably only 50% absorbable in this form) and feeling no effect on fatigue. Cut my mag malate from 450 to 250 and increased my sodium to 2000+mg and felt a definite energy boost that is lasting. In addition to being low selenium I have, to my detriment, avoided salt my whole life.

As with many AFers, if low energy is due to low blood pressure tweaking those electrolytes will help. Also for pathogenic viral / bacterial activity and a compromised microbiome I would definitely hit olive leaf and LIVE CULTURE kefir hard, `tho you'll have to look for farms outside the city. Lifeway and powdered culture kefirs (and yogurt) are weak, transient bacteria. Kimchi is a great substitute for Kefir. After your experience with Valtrex you might try a low and slow food route. BTW Selenium is good for attacking biofilm if you have baddies hiding and evading your immune...[/QUOTE]Thank you, I am going to try adding electrolytes!

Also, may want to consider cutting my magnesium also...

 

[Hip]

Please tell me what brand of flaxseed you take?

Niharti.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I take both first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach

Do you take all of the selenium at that time or do you split the dose?

 

[Hip]

Do you take all of the selenium at that time or do you split the dose?

All at once, with my morning coffee when waking. It's then usually at least two hours before I eat anything, so it has time to absorb on an empty stomach.

 

[douglasmich]

going to try this.

thanks

 

[charles shepherd]

Q and A from ME Essential (MEA magazine) on selenium - My personal view is that the jury is still out on this supplement…

6 QUESTION: Should I take a selenium supplement?


What do you think about taking a selenium supplement? My nutritionist has told me that selenium can help with joint pain, which has formed part of my ME for some time. She also says that selenium helps to keep the immune system in top condition and increases resistance to bacterial and viral infections. I should point out that I have read the MEA guidance on joint pain and other possible explanations, including rheumatoid arthritis, have been excluded.



ANSWER


Unfortunately, I cannot give you a simple yes/no answer as to whether this is a good idea.


It has been suggested that mild selenium deficiency might be quite common in the UK and selenium deficiency has been linked to a number of illnesses – including cancer, infertility, osteoarthritis, muscle disease, cognitive (mental functioning) decline and an increased susceptibility to viral infections.


Selenium is also an essential micronutrient that is required (in very small amounts) by all the key components of the immune system in order to function properly. And if intake is deficient there could be lowered resistance to bacterial and viral infections.


The richest dietary source of selenium is Brazil nuts (which can cause toxicity if eaten in excess), but meat and fish, whole grains and dairy products also contain selenium. Selenium is also often included in antioxidant supplements.


Selenium affects a whole range a immune system functions and may in lay terms help to ‘boost the immune system’. The problem here is that evidence now points to an on-going low level immune system activation in ME/CFS - so anything that boosts the immune system in someone with ME/CFS could, in theory, make their symptoms worse.


Low doses appear to be safe but high doses of selenium taken acutely, or over a long period of time, can be harmful.


So there are some theoretical advantages and disadvantages in taking a selenium-containing supplement. But with evidence from research into selenium levels in ME/CFS and information from clinical trials, the jury will have to remain out on this one……

 

[Hip]

Note that "high dose" in this thread title really something of a misnomer, as in this thread the dose suggested is 400 mcg daily, and this dosage is considered within safe upper limits.

 

[Aerowallah]

After a few months at 500mcg no effect that I have noticed.

HOWEVER after adding doses of ionic Trace Minerals every morning (some 80-odd minerals in the assay) I notice improved energy and well-being within five minutes and this is consistently over a month now. Having lived on distilled and RO water for decades I don't think my body knows what electrolytes are! Also 4-year flu-type aches and pains in extremities are gone.

Have supplemented Mg and K all along but not with this result.

Want to start methylation soon with low low folates / B12 and am glad to be addressing deficiencies first in selenium et al.

 

[topghetto]

Hi @Aerowallah,

Are you still taking the ionic Trace Minerals? If so, are you still experiencing the benefits?

 

[Aerowallah]

Absolutely, they are a bloody miracle. I wake up every morning with weakness, flu aches and pains in hands and feet and consistently, within minutes of my cocktail -- 1 teaspoon of TM's "40,000 Volt" formulation (higher in sodium) + squeeze of lemon + dash of coconut water -- the gradual onset of energy, and disappearance of soreness is dramatic. I need another shot at lunchtime, and one more after my coffee enema around 5 pm. That gives me a total of 750 mg of magnesium, and then small fractions of the RDA of the other electrolytes, though many don't have RDAs established. People on other threads say electrolyte balance is off and "leaky" with CFS, so I have probably been low for years. Based on a hair analysis I did several years ago selenium was not as low as calcium and magnesium, lithium, boron et al which were quite low. So maybe that is why I feel the boost from the mix and not the selenium alone.

 

[Avengers26]

Hi @Aerowallah What ionic Trace Minerals you take?