Found a source of B12 comparable to injection that only contains the 2 active forms + pure water.

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,372
B12 is stored in the liver to a certain extent, so if you stop B12 today and provided that you have an adequate amount of B12 stored in the liver, you would indeed not run out very quickly (not sure if as long as 5-7 years).

But of course that assumes your body is absorbing B12 well enough to keep a decent amount stored in the liver in the first place, which only a blood test can confirm.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
I read an odd sentence online which stated if you stopped your B[12, it would take 5-7 year for your body to run out,
From what I can remember it is approminately 24 months in a healthy individual from a fully repleted state to deficiency if no B12 is consumed.

This is because B12 is recycled via enterohepatic circulation. Used B12 gets excreted into the bile and then it is reabsorbed when the bile is reabsorbed in the intestines.

This is why I became deficient because I was suffering from cholestasis (lack of bile flow/production).

I am now treating myself for this with TUDCA, ox bile and digestive enzymes.

The digestive enzymes are required because I think I have pancreatic insufficiency due to the cholestasis causing pancreatitis repeatedly for at least 10 years.

I have had a CT scan recently that did not show anything obvious to worry about and I am waiting on a faecal elastase test looking for lack of digestive enzymes/pancreatic insufficiency.

Given how I respond to my treatment with digestive enzymes and what happens when I stop, I am quite certain it will come back that I am lacking enzymes.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Just had my 7th oxford biosciences vitamin B12 shot.

Since starting them I have not stopped working on my garden and have become quite exhausted yet no PEM to speak of.

Still taking CBD and copaiba via my vape pen. Yesterday I did not take the copaiba because what I had mixed up had run out and I was very busy so did not bother with it.

Feel better today since taking. My memory had been starting to play up but it is now fine again.

Currently eating at least 4 eggs a day for the amino acids to build muscle.

My physical structure is changing and I am bigger than last year since taking the TUDCA, ox bile and digestive enzymes.

I could not seem to put on much weight last year and this was likely because of the cholestasis and pancreatic insufficiency.

I just weighed myself and I am 12 stone which is much higher than last year.

Muscle is starting to increase and I have been able to lift 100L bags of compost.

I am still doing fasting but not all the time and I have lots of energy.

Got loads of plants and seedlings coming along and have grand plans for the vegetable plot with larger space now and large 60L pots for on the concrete base to make better use of it.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Been in the garden working since my vitamin B12 shot earlier and had a bath when I came in, about 30mins ago I got out and I am about to start cooking dinner.

I feel great and do not feel any PEM.

For me at least I have figured out how to completely silence the me/cfs and fibromyalgia.

Copaiba, CBD and figuring out why I was having issues with vitamin B12, along with addressing things like lack of magnesium, vitamin D and omega 3 has given me my health back.

All that is left to do is improve my physical strength and get in shape.

Time will be needed to see if this can translate to an actual cure and not be something that I have to manage for the rest of my life, I am happy either way though.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Just had 10th B12 shot.

I have not stopped being active doing lots of physical work 8+ hours everyday in the garden, while cooking dinner most days, having baths most days and not having PEM.

My stamina and strength are improving while my mind is clear and active.

Muscles are aching but mostly fine the next day as I am very out of shape, although last years period of wellness and activity has given me a bit of a help in that regard.

If I forget to vape my CBD and copaiba I start to lose energy but am fine once I start vaping again soon after.

I have done so much in the last few weeks I am struggling to believe it.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
the bottle of B-12 I ordered from Colorado arrived (via shipping from Idaho). This brand seems very good, pricy but very PURE.

I attempted to imbibe less than 1 drop.

I injured my neck, need acupuncture, but haven't called because I feel so lousy at the moment, plus head aches more, and actually taking ibuprofen which I try to avoid (for the pain in my neck)...so now Head Ache seems to be coming on.

I think I just have so many symptoms of crap happening, tracking responses to anything is complex. I need my own AI.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
@Rufous McKinney
I understand how you feel, I just wish I could do more for you than just offer positivity and well wishing.

One step at a time is all you need to do, no matter how long one thing leads to the next and then the next.

Thats what I hold onto in my mind, all the time every day, it keeps me going.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
Copaiba, CBD and figuring out why I was having issues with vitamin B12, along with addressing things like lack of magnesium, vitamin D and omega 3 has given me my health back.

the B-12 experiment-.........I felt truly AWFUL yesterday after taking probably ONE entire drop (I had taken part of a drop, on three other occasions). (an air bubble and a bit of it, as I could taste it)

My eyes were unable to focus, very blurred vision and the bubble brain symptom came on, I also could taste metal in my mouth.

It makes me feel so awful I do not want to continue trying. (I take methylated good multi's most every day).

The b-caryophylene has not affected me that way (its doesn't "seem to" generate these awful detox symptoms)...(but I have still not taken it under the tongue).
 

datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
408
Location
USA
The Methylmalonic Acid Test, also called an MMA Test is a more accurate test of B12 deficiency. Methylmalonic Acid, also called Methylmalonate, is a waste product that builds up in the blood and is excreted in the urine when Vitamin B12 is not available to transform into the energy metabolite Succinic Acid. Because it begins to build up within ten days after a Vitamin B12 deficiency begins, it is not only the most accurate marker, but it is the earliest detectable marker of Vitamin B12 deficiency. And because Methylmalonic Acid is found in both blood and urine in amounts relative to the degree of deficiency, both urine and blood tests are good tests for Vitamin B12 deficiency.

B12 is released from proteins by stomach acid and digestion. Older people and those with low stomach acid or faulty digestion may develop B12 deficiencies (along with other nutrient deficiencies) because of this. Enzymes, particularly the proteases, digest the proteins and may make more B12 available (along with other nutrients). If you take anything that inhibits digestion or stomach acid, then you are inhibiting B12 release and absorption: like calcium carbonate with meals, Tums, Rolaids, and certain medications which affect stomach acid. Further in regards to ME/CFS, inflammation turns out it lowers our zinc levels which is needed for stomach acid production along with B1 and B6. Prolonged inflammation can deplete your B12 over time. If you have an injured gut by any means, you sharply reduce your ability to absorb B12. If you go grain and dairy free in addition to this, you are very likely to be B12 deficient. There is quite high B12 in milk, most better tolerate A2 milk vs normal A1 milk. vitamin B12 can not be manufactured by any plants, and therefore is only found in animal products.

B12 is absorbed in the ileum, the very last part of the small intestine. Most everything else is absorbed before that in earlier parts of the intestine. B12 combines with something called Intrinsic Factor in order to work. The stomach acid issues can affect the Intrinsic Factor availability too. Intrinsic Factor is necessary to bind with the B12 in the stomach to "protect" it in the upper small intestine and from the stomach acid. Then the Intrinsic Factor attaches to some receptors at the end of the small intestine in the ileum aiding the B12 uptake. So at times it is the Intrinsic Factor and the fact it cannot attach to the receptors to facilitate transport and absorption into the body that is the problem and the cause of B12 deficiency. The sublingual B12 is highly preferred for this reason because it gets the B12 into the system and bypasses the entire Intrinsic Factor mechanism. (as you are taking now).

You can test methylation status through the use of a whole blood histamine test which is different from a plasma histamine test as I mentioned here https://forums.phoenixrising.me/thr...ation-excess-of-methionine.90348/post-2438042 You can combine this with a homocysteine test to get additional info as this can be higher with lower folate or B12. Someone who has an SNP that might predispose them to impaired methylation does not mean they actually have impaired methylation. In fact, they could have completely normal methylation! On the other hand, a person who has no SNPs in their methylation genes could have severe methylation imbalance and may therefore benefit from some treatment but usually only when something is far too much in one direction causing health issues.
 

L'engle

moogle
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3,284
Location
Canada
Still looking for one I can buy easily in Canada that doesn't have any fillers.

The AOR ones were starting to affect one of my teeth after a year, they have tapioca syrup.
The liquid one I bought has 'natural berry flavors', so that acids or sugars and also not great.

The winner so far is the Trophic that has only stearic acid and some bases, but the tablet needs to be chewed and breaks into chalky chunks which I think still isn't great for my mouth if I have to keep doing it all the time.

The b12 I was taking ten years ago, Enyzmatic Therapy, really did a number on my tooth enamel and I can't let that happen again.

I'd probably have to pay huge import fees to get the Nature's Provider brand shipped. The search continues.

I'm having improvements from mast cell stabilizers (luteolin, quercitin, resveratrol, PEA) that parallel the benefits of high dose b12, but I don't yet know if they would stack or if they are redundant. I couldn't keep taking the AOR and the Trophic is only 1mg so no way to get high dose there without crunching through half the bottle everyday.
 
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datadragon

Senior Member
Messages
408
Location
USA
Doctors Data I should mention also has a methylation profile panel evaluating the plasma levels of methionine, cysteine, SAM, SAH, homocysteine, and cystathionine. It also provides the important "methylation index", a ratio of SAM to SAH. https://www.secondopinionphysician.com/shop/walsh-protocol-lab-test-doctors-data-methylation-test/ This may help point issues with genetic, nutrient issues, cysteine etc https://fxmed.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Print-DDI-Plasma-Methylation-Guide.pdf

And I just posted elsewhere that B12 appears to react with superoxide when glutathione is depleted (which can happen after inflammation/infection and the lowering of zinc levels. So that was another 'hit' to lowering the B12 levels beyond just from stomach acid being low and left with our storage of B12 until the inflammation is resolved.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Still looking for one I can buy easily in Canada that doesn't have any fillers.
What is the status in your country on buying intramuscular B12 for injection, it is the best way to get B12 in my opinion when you have issues.
I know of, but not much about B12 patches, maybe something useful.

And I just posted elsewhere that B12 appears to react with superoxide when glutathione is depleted (which can happen after inflammation/infection and the lowering of zinc levels. So that was another 'hit' to lowering the B12 levels beyond just from stomach acid being low and left with our storage of B12 until the inflammation is resolved.
The caryophyllene I use helps raise glutathione and I take a zinc supplement everyday so looks like I am protected from these issues, thanks again for the information you are providing.

By the way, nitros oxide which is used in medical procedures and at least here in the UK used as a drug by young people oxidises B12 and makes it unable to take part in the important biological processes it is involved in.
 

Wayne

Senior Member
Messages
4,464
Location
Ashland, Oregon
I noted this brand is being produced in COLORADO.....DENVER.....
It looks like a good company to me. Few extra ingredients and also some testing for inpurities.

https://purethera.com/products/bioactive-b12

Hi @Rufous McKinney -- Did you ever purchase this, and did it work out for you? I tried to find the Natures Way Bioactive B12, but couldn't find it available in the U.S. So I'm looking for an alternative. Anybody find one that they really like?

Hey @CSMLSM -- Thanks for posting on your B12 odyssey, and the major improvements you've been able to achieve. :thumbsup: I look forward to hearing more, and perhaps get some feedback on my own experimentation.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
I also suspect that the repeated bouts of what I now believe was Pancreatitis has affected the production of digestive enzymes. This is because I benefit from taking digestive enzymes and they improve my stools making them appear fully digested and normal.

I had a CT scan of the abdomen recently, nothing to worry about apparently from that so I have not developed cancer or any visible damage of concern from the pancreatitis and I have just yesterday had a faecal elastase test to look for pancreatic exocrine insufficiency (lack of digestive enzymes from pancreas).

Given how I respond to my treatment with digestive enzymes and what happens when I stop, I am quite certain it will come back that I am lacking enzymes.
Finally got results of faecal elastase test today and its good news. It has come back as normal which means that the cholestasis(lack of bile flow) was just impeding the digestive enzymes from getting to the intestines and causing the pancreatic pain without causing any permanent damage to the pancreas :)

So I will use up the digestive enzymes and ox bile I have and then stop them. I will then continue to take TUDCA to keep the bile flowing freely so that my B12 can be effectively recycled via enterohepatic circulation.
 

Rufous McKinney

Senior Member
Messages
13,489
- Did you ever purchase this, and did it work out for you?
I bought it, I tried to take Less Than One drop (so it was the bubble at the end of the eye dropper)

DETOX was too intense when I took one whole drop. So I had to stop for now.

(I will try to resume in a few weeks)...the brand seems very good.
 

CSMLSM

Senior Member
Messages
973
Hey @CSMLSM -- Thanks for posting on your B12 odyssey, and the major improvements you've been able to achieve. :thumbsup: I look forward to hearing more, and perhaps get some feedback on my own experimentation.
Hi @Wayne the improvements have been so good because I already found a treatment for my ME/CFS/Fibro and was doing really well last year. Then I got ill really bad because of B12 defciency and did not realise even though I have had B12 issues for approx 10 years at the very least. I thought I was treating it with oral supplements following running out of intramuscular B12 which I could not get anymore because of Brexit, red tape.

It was a brutal time(eight months) but I am certain I discovered why I have been having B12 issues all this time due to this period of difficulty, I discovered I have been dealing with cholestasis. It basically is bile flow issues from the liver causing an issue with how B12 is recycled in the body via something called enterohepatic circulation. This recycling is the main source of B12 in humans and without it we would need far far more in our diets.

So please do not think I am so well just because of vitamin B12 because thats a separate issue to the ME/CFS/Fibro although many others with ME/CFS have B12 issues.

Anyway I would be interested in hearing if B12 helps you and would be happy to comment on anything you share about your experimentation.
 
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