Drinking baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) may treat autoimmune disease

[Hip]

Did you open the poll about the burping test? I did it this morning (30 mn ago) with a teaspoon of Bicarbonate, but got no burp at all...

It's not a scientifically validated test for stomach acid levels, so we cannot be sure it has meaning. But if the burp test suggests low stomach acid, it might be worth experimenting with some stomach acid supplements like betaine HCl with your meals.

Or more simply, just take one or two tablespoons of vinegar after a meal.

I have not set up a poll on the burp test.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Odd question from me but I've never been able to google a straight answer. Is the chemical symbol HC03¯ correct for sodium bicabornate?

If so it might explain why buying and drinking a litre of Badoit natural sparkling mineral water used to make a massive difference for me. I drank it for about 18 months, I phase things out eventually if I can due to cost. Here's a list of the ingredients:

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong though, I may have been misreading the label all this time!

Thanks,

 

[sb4]

@godlovesatrier HCO3 is bicarbonate however looking at that label it says PH 6 which is slightly acid. Don't know if I am reading it right. I should imagine the Sulphate and Chlorine are responsible for this acidity.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

This bothered me enough that I needed to resolve- the BI in BICARBONATE (I was looking for the two carbons, and there is only one)

"The prefix bi in bicarbonate comes from an outdated naming system and is based on the observation that there is twice as much carbonate (CO3) per sodium in sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) as there is in sodium carbonate(Na2CO3). (wikipedia says, and needs donations)

 

[pamojja]

Is the chemical symbol HC03¯ correct for sodium bicabornate?

If so it might explain why buying and drinking a litre of Badoit natural sparkling mineral water used to make a massive difference for me.

Not sodium, but hydrogen carbonate. The mineral water I drink already for 7 years due to its high Mg content against a Mg-deficiency contains even 7700 mg/l hydrogen carbonate.

This bothered me enough that I needed to resolve- the BI in BICARBONATE

That had me confused too. When I bought potassium-bicarbonate in pharmacies, they always give me potassium hydrogen carbonicum - and assure me its just a different name for the same stuff.

 

[godlovesatrier]

Must be the magnesium that helps then I already drink plenty of water as it is haha

 

[pattismith]

Odd question from me but I've never been able to google a straight answer. Is the chemical symbol HC03¯ correct for sodium bicabornate?

If so it might explain why buying and drinking a litre of Badoit natural sparkling mineral water used to make a massive difference for me. I drank it for about 18 months, I phase things out eventually if I can due to cost. Here's a list of the ingredients:

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong though, I may have been misreading the label all this time!

Thanks,

Badoit is a highly mineralized natural water. It contains lots of potassium, magnesium, etc. (not only bicarbonate)
I found it helpful too for my muscle pain and weakness.

 

[Mary]

@Hip - this may have been answered elsewhere, but I can't find it. Do you know if potassium bicarbonate would have same beneficial effect as sodium bicarbonate, for autoimmune illnesses? My sister has rheumatoid arthritis and I told her about the sodium bicarb, which she tried, but it raises her BP, it also raises mine. So I suggested she try potassium bicarbonate instead, but wanted to get your opinion on this - thanks!

 

[Hip]

Do you know if potassium bicarbonate would have same beneficial effect as sodium bicarbonate, for autoimmune illnesses?

I glanced at the paper, but could not find any suggested mechanism of action. But if we assume the sodium bicarbonate works by increasing pH in the stomach, then you might expect potassium bicarbonate to work equally well.

But I think this paper has to be taken with a pinch salt, because it has not been yet replicated anywhere. Worth trying the bicarbonate though.

 

[Mary]

I glanced at the paper, but could not find any suggested mechanism of action. But if we assume the sodium bicarbonate works by increasing pH in the stomach, then you might expect potassium bicarbonate to work equally well.

But I think this paper has to be taken with a pinch salt, because it has not been yet replicated anywhere. Worth trying the bicarbonate though.

I wondered if the sodium bicarbonate works by indirectly increasing alkalinity in the body - in any event, I'm going to urge her to try the potassium bicarbonate.

 

[Hip]

I wondered if the sodium bicarbonate works by indirectly increasing alkalinity in the body

There's not clear explanation of mechanism, but this article says:

In the spleen, as well as the blood and kidneys, they found after drinking water with baking soda for two weeks, the population of immune cells called macrophages, shifted from primarily those that promote inflammation, called M1, to those that reduce it, called M2

So the bicarbonate somehow stimulates the production of anti-inflammatory M2 macrophages.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@Hip - this may have been answered elsewhere, but I can't find it. Do you know if potassium bicarbonate would have same beneficial effect as sodium bicarbonate, for autoimmune illnesses? My sister has rheumatoid arthritis and I told her about the sodium bicarb, which she tried, but it raises her BP, it also raises mine. So I suggested she try potassium bicarbonate instead, but wanted to get your opinion on this - thanks!

Potassium bicarb is a very dangerous supplement, it might arrest one's heart because it really lowers BP.

If one of the mechanisms of sodium bicarb against autoimmune disease is adrenal support via the sodium in it, then the potassium would have a detrimental effect.

 

[Mary]

Potassium bicarb is a very dangerous supplement, it might arrest one's heart because it really lowers BP.

I don't agree that it's very dangerous. Yes it can help lower BP. Much high BP is due to potassium deficiency and not an excess of sodium. Of course you have to know what you're doing, how much potassium you're taking. Too much would be harmful. But studies have shown that a large percentage of the population is deficient in potassium due to our unhealthy diets. I wonder how many people are on BP meds not due to too much sodium, but rather potassium deficiency?

If one of the mechanisms of sodium bicarb against autoimmune disease is adrenal support via the sodium in it, then the potassium would have a detrimental effect.

Yes, if adrenal support via sodium was the mechanism of the efficacy of sodium bicarbonate, then potassium bicarbonate might be detrimental. However, did you see this from @Hip 's post above:

There's not clear explanation of mechanism, but this article says:

In the spleen, as well as the blood and kidneys, they found after drinking water with baking soda for two weeks, the population of immune cells called macrophages, shifted from primarily those that promote inflammation, called M1, to those that reduce it, called M2

So the bicarbonate somehow stimulates the production of anti-inflammatory M2 macrophages.

It doesn't say anything about the adrenals.

 

[Hip]

Potassium bicarb is a very dangerous supplement, it might arrest one's heart because it really lowers BP.

According to this paper, potassium bicarbonate does not lower blood pressure; although potassium chloride does.

 

[Mary]

According to this paper, potassium bicarbonate does not lower blood pressure; although potassium chloride does.

This is what the paper says:

Non-chloride potassium salts may not be effective in lowering blood pressure in essential hypertension.

I wonder how much potassium they gave the study participants - I don't know what this measurement means:

120 mmol potassium per day

This study comes to a different conclusion:

After 8 weeks of potassium citrate intake the systolic and diastolic pressures were reduced significantly, by a mean of 6.2/3.8 mm Hg (P < 0.05). But after potassium chloride there was only a small, not significant, reduction.

 

[Mary]

Here's an interesting video based on this study, which argues that potassium bicarbonate does lower blood pressure, helps with several body processes and also is safer than potassium chloride:

 

[Hip]

This study comes to a different conclusion:

I wonder why these two studies got different and contradictory results.

120 mmol potassium per day

One mole of potassium weighs 39 grams, so 120 millimoles will be 4.7 grams of potassium. Presumably this amount was given in divided doses. 4.7 grams is about equal to the recommended daily intake of potassium, so I guess with this potassium supplement, their daily potassium intake was doubled compared to normal.


In the autoimmunity study detailed in this thread, they gave 2 grams of sodium bicarbonate a day. If we are switching to 2 grams of potassium bicarbonate daily instead, that will contain about 0.8 grams of potassium.

 

[Mary]

One mole of potassium weighs 39 grams, so 120 millimoles will be 4.7 grams of potassium. Presumably this amount was given in divided doses. 4.7 grams is about equal to the recommended daily intake of potassium, so I guess with this potassium supplement, their daily potassium intake was doubled compared to normal.


In the autoimmunity study detailed in this thread, they gave 2 grams of sodium bicarbonate a day. If we are switching to 2 grams of potassium bicarbonate daily instead, that will contain about 0.8 grams of potassium.

thanks @Hip for working this out!

 

[Gondwanaland]

I want just warn someone who could be reading this against experimenting with potassium bicarb too enthusiatically. When I experimented with it I took a dose of merely 30-40mg and I just couldn't stand on my feet. Personally I find Potasssium chloride much safer because chloride actually raises BP (and it did when I tried it - see the strokes in rats as you posted, Mary ).

It doesn't say anything about the adrenals.

It can't be avoided to influence any organ or gland in the body, and a study doesn't look at each and every impact a substance will have in all of the organs.

 

[Mary]

@Gondwanaland - how did you manage to take only 30 -40 mg a day? A teaspoon equals about 4 grams, or 4000 mg. So were you taking 1/10 of a teaspoon when the potassium bicarbonate caused your BP to tank?

eta: whoops! My math was wrong above, off by a factor of 10. To get 40 mg from 4000 mg, you'd have to divide by 100 - 1/100 of a teaspoon of potassium bicarbonate would yield 40 mg.