Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[hapl808]

Did you take this MicroGenDX test while you had an active UTI, or just when your urinary tract was normal? Because in the latter case, it might be expected that they found nothing. I believe a regular urine culture might also find nothing if there is no UTI.

Mine was a blood test while I was experiencing a flare in my symptoms - fever, etc. Maybe there was nothing to find, but the fact that their sampling was supposedly sensitive and required the blood draw be overnighted, then took them a week to give me results with phone calls and emails daily where they kept promising it would be delivered that day. The final 'result' was unclear if the specimen were degraded or nothing was found - when I asked for clarification, they said it was run and the sample was fine but the report itself doesn't make that clear.

Anyways, I think sequencing could be very useful for us to test for reservoirs, I just found MicroGenDX to be unprofessional and difficult. The only thing they seemed to follow-up was their own billing (even though they initially told me it was approved by insurance, but reappeared a year later to collect).

I wonder if there are other suggestions. I had looked at Aperiomics - I think they were recently sold so not sure if they still operate. There were a few others doing similar sequencing work.

 

[Hip]

Mine was a blood test while I was experiencing a flare in my symptoms - fever, etc.

OK, so it was a blood test you had, not a urine test?

It's not surprising they did not find any pathogens in your blood, that's to be expected: when Dr Chia experimented using the most sensitive PCR test available for enteroviruses, he found that most of the time, his enterovirus ME/CFS patient's blood would be negative for enterovirus. Even in the severe bedbound enterovirus ME/CFS patients, they only were positive 70% of the time in Dr Chia's repeat tests.

These PCR blood test experiments he conducted made Dr Chia realise that in ME/CFS, the virus is not really found in the blood, it is in the tissues. If you had sent enterovirus-infected tissues to MicroGenDX, I am guessing they might have detected it.

 

[hapl808]

It not surprising they did not find any pathogens in your blood. When Dr Chia experimented using the most sensitive PCR test available for enteroviruses, he found that most of the time, his enterovirus ME/CFS patients blood would be negative for enterovirus. Even in the severe bedbound enterovirus ME/CFS patients, they only were positive 70% of the time in Dr Chia's repeat tests.

Yes, blood work.

Again, when I'm told something has to be overnighted and tested immediately otherwise it will degrade, then every single day for a week I'm told I'll have the results in a few hours, I don't trust them. Especially because the week late report says "either there was nothing detected OR the sample was degraded" but they told me orally that the sample was fine and that they ran it the day they got it (which is also not what it says on the report, but they said that was just an error in the portal).

So I am guessing they never ran the sample at all, hence the week of delays and promises. They might have detected nothing if they properly tested the sample, I just don't think they did it based on my experience.

In short, i would not recommend MicroGenDX.

 

[hapl808]

I was also annoyed because I was pretty severe so the single vial of blood collected knocked me down for weeks. All my energy was taken emailing them and calling them daily trying to get my results.

 

[Hipsman]

have logistics improved at all? Sorry to bug you. I am looking at growing my cultures again, but i just can’t imagine how exact the readings could be over image. I reallt want to get the cultures to markovs lab(he said its up again?) but i know the logistics are messed up indefinitely.

Idk, planes don't go to Ukraine yet, so it will be shipped through Poland I think, also not sure FedEx even works. Best to ask Markov with email, if they don't reply, then probably they can't figure out the logistics themselves.

 

[Garz]

@Garz thanks looks interesting. Are you going to try and do that micro clot therapy in europe then?

i have been self treating for a while now Ben - my treatment is a combination of abx, antimicrobial herbs shown to have effectiveness for bartonella, and fibrinolytic agents - mainly bromelain - but planning on adding lumbrokinase in pulses later ( its too hard for me to tolerate continuously at present)
the infections are complex and hard to treat for all the well documented reasons
- biofilm forming bacteria
- fibrin deposits
- intracellular bacteria
- persister cell behaviour
- immune suppression
so my treatment involves layering multiple modalities together to address these multiple facets
however i cannot tolerate just starting them all at once as i get such strong reactions
so i am layering them in over time

so far i am around 60% recovered and moving forward gradually
i was pretty much house bound - even 20minutes talking would give me PEM
at present i can:
-do 3 to 4 30minute weights workouts a week,
-walk 3-4 miles every day at a fast pace
-and maybe 1 longer hill walk a week

so its clear i am on the right track - but it took me 5-6 years to find it (a proper diagnosis) - and there is no quick fix

 

[hapl808]

so my treatment involves layering multiple modalities together to address these multiple facets
however i cannot tolerate just starting them all at once as i get such strong reactions
so i am layering them in over time

What modalities are you using? I've done a bit the same, but just haven't gotten the same longer term results I used to get from such attempts.

My own current attempt: andrographis, knotweed, cat's claw, skullcap, olive leaf, allicin, Vit C, fish oil.

I've also used: nattokinase, serrapeptase, NAC, neem, GSE, oregano oil, monolaurin, cistus incanus, artemisinin, thyme, lysine, black seed oil, d-limonene, copper, kudzu, selenium, reishi, etc.

 

[Garz]

its a lot

• Wholefood Keto Diet ( perhaps the single biggest step forward / and start of my recovery - helped me with fatigue, all over pain, and gut issues)
• Exercise – initially just walking – now weights too - believe this is vital to recovery
• Buhner Lyme herbs – 7 or 8 herbs in high doses - per his 2nd Edition Healing Lyme book
• Co-infection herbs – again per Buhner’s books - mainly targeting bartonella - sida, cryptolepis, alchornea, etc
• Immune Modulation via Ivermectin and LDN ( had to start LDN very low and build up in 0.01mg increments)
• Methylene Blue for Bartonella - ref Zhang's work at Johns Hopkins
• T3 and T4 combination thyroid therapy - bartonella has triggered hashimotos - so i am correcting that as proper immune function is dependent on thyroid function - and proper correction is not possible with T4 only
• fibrinolytic enzymes ( bart drives excessive fibrinogen) - first bromelain - then later lumbrokinase - which is much stronger
• oil of oregano - one of the most potent natural agents against lyme and bartonella stationary phase bacteria - again ref Zhang et al
• many supplements - minerals, antioxidants, mitochondria support, digestive support

progress is slow and steady - and most treatments make me feel worse before i feel better - so i have had to develop a way of tracking the gradual progress graphically over the long term - and using as objective measures as possible - so i can direct my own treatment effectively.

before this, with only sporadic treatments of a few weeks of this or a month or so of that - i was lost.
it takes a sustained multi factor regime to shake this chronic infection stuff - the secret for me has been to get extremely systematic in my approach to everything to do with my treatment.

feel free to message me - or visit the forum here if you would like more info / to avoid taking this tread too far off topic https://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=30

 

[Hip]

It occurred to me that there may be a way to boost the potency of the mucosal vaccines which Dr Markov prescribes, namely the IRS-19 nasal spray and the Imudon bacterial lysate lozenge.

We have identified 3 potent mucosal adjuvants (vitamin B2, chitosan and interferon alpha), which boost the immune response against the inactivated pathogens contained in a mucosal vaccine. If these three adjuvants were applied along with the mucosal vaccines, it should potentiate their effects.

I am thinking of applying the IRS-19 nasal spray not to my nose, but to the oral mucous membranes, such as the inside cheeks of my mouth, and the upper gum area. I will also crush an Imudon tablet into fine powder, and apply to the same oral mucous membranes.

At the same time, I can then apply a mixture of chitosan and vitamin B2 powder to the oral mucous membranes, and I also have some Russian interferon suppositories in my fridge, which I can use as a source of interferon to apply to the oral mucous membranes.

By my calculation, around 6 mg of vitamin B2 is the equivalent human dose needed per each mucosal application of the mucosal vaccine. For interferon, a low dose is required as a mucosal adjuvant, but I was not able to figure out the interferon IU dose from the paper.

Chitosan is hard to work with, as it is not soluble in water, but if very finely ground up, a light dusting of the oral mucous membranes with chitosan may work.


These two mucosal vaccines stimulate the immune response against a range of bacteria, including Enterococcus, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Streptococcus, and Staphylococcus. So they target the pathogens Dr Markov typically finds in the urine culture of ME/CFS patients.

 

[MartinK]

Guys, we know how many people here have already used the diagnostics of dr. Markov and is he following his treatment and with what results? I know of two here...

Im personally not sure if I have a kidney infection, but I think 99% that there is something wrong with my nasal and oral cavity, because I have frequent colds, sore throats and flu-like symptoms that immediately cause a major crash . Even a small canker sore on my tonsils cause a lot of inflammation and PEM for me!

I sent Markov an email, but I'm still so unsure if it's worth working with him.

thx for opinions ;-)

 

[BrightCandle]

Guys, we know how many people here have already used the diagnostics of dr. Markov and is he following his treatment and with what results? I know of two here...

Its been one of those years with Russia invading those two also haven't had the usual timely treatment.

I would start with Hips initial post and get some urine dipsticks, that is the test to confirm.

 

[MartinK]

Its been one of those years with Russia invading those two also haven't had the usual timely treatment.

I would start with Hips initial post and get some urine dipsticks, that is the test to confirm.

Yea, I have done this for some time, but not sure with interpretation and I don't know how to start a treatment that will be as targeted as possible.

 

[Hip]

I have done this for some time, but not sure with interpretation and I don't know how to start a treatment that will be as targeted as possible.

According to the Uricult Plus dipslide instructions, those red spots on the white Enterococcus agar are Enterococcus bacteria. Enterococcus is the most common bacterium Dr Markov finds in his ME/CFS patients.

Then on the green CLED agar, you have two bacteria growing, one is a lactose positive bacterium (since it turned the green CLED agar yellow); this could just be the Enterococcus once again.

And another is a lactose negative bacterium (since the CLED agar remained green). Lactose negative UTI bacteria are:

Morganella morganii
Acinetobacter baumannii
Pseudomonas aeruginosa
Proteus mirabilis
Proteus vulgaris
Hafnia alvei
Serratia marcescens

 

[MartinK]

@Hip Thanks! Does that mean it's a fairly straightforward result that is very common if I understand correctly?

In this case it would be good to clarify directly from dr. Markov, or its easy to start own treatment - for example, the IRS-19 you are talking about above, or I also have Ismigen here at home.

Or is the making of tailor-made vaccines necessary for greater efficacy?

Somehow I can't rate it properly...feeling stupid the last few weeks because hard withdrawal Pregabalin. :-/

 

[BrightCandle]

IRS-19 I think has improved my situation but its not sufficient. I did two full rounds and half a third round of it which takes 3 months and now I am waiting about a month and I'll start ismigen, that will be another 3 months or so. My urine bacteria volume and range of species has dropped over time so I am getting there but its a very slow process. I have no idea if at the end of this I get anything other than rid of my urinary issues but even that will be worth it.

 

[Hip]

Or is the making of tailor-made vaccines necessary for greater efficacy?

I believe Dr Markov's injected vaccines are the most important core of the protocol. He also prescribes mucosal vaccines like IRS-19.

 

[bensmith]

@MartinK - it basically saved my life. First round if treatment. My quality of life just exploded.

i wore a mask to gadren though, havent been able to breath since august 4. So basically back down to beint very ill.

i tried to do another round but the trst i took didnt work/show anything. Becuase the war the protocol is not the same.

i keep waiting for the war to postpone or something, but i just cant see this being viable for many years. Not sure i’ll even make it another 2 years at this rate.

but again, if not for my mistake wearing a mask at a bad time, i’d possibly even be even better than i was. I seemed to just keep improving.

i also think if i could get another round of shots i’d be ok, but i cant.

you can work with him now, but i just dont think sending him images would work. Images of bacteria on pee sticks.

so yeah pretty tragic overall. As far as i can tell its the best treatment we have, but not access for years because of the war.

maybe this winter ups will start with delivery again, but trying to talk to people on reddit who work there, they didnt think it likely. Best i can say is nobody knows(which isn’t good eirher lol)

i also tried to find president of how long ups start shipping after or during a war, but couldnt find anything. People are so rude when you ask them questions sometimes.

 

[Garz]

@bensmith - sorry to hear you have gone backwards - that is never nice - just curious - why do you think wearing a mask suddenly set you back so dramatically - that's a new one on me - so just trying to understand why it might do that and how / what it might mean

 

[Garz]

if the vaccines are not a valid option right now / for the foreseeable future- is it worth resurrecting some of the other ideas that address the same root cause eg

• the anti-biofilm protocols along with anti-microbials - to break up the biofilms and treat the bacteria that form them( other biofilm infections have been successfully treated like this )
• the auto-vaccine approach - eg mucosal - via killed culture of bacteria from the urine - perhaps with mmune activators as hip was looking into

 

[bensmith]

@bensmith - sorry to hear you have gone backwards - that is never nice - just curious - why do you think wearing a mask suddenly set you back so dramatically - that's a new one on me - so just trying to understand why it might do that and how / what it might mean

i wore a mask to do gardening, then couldnt breath anymore. Now i’m fucked.

why did it happen, Oxygen issues or carbon issues maybe? Not sure.