Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[andyguitar]

BUT I won't let go a chance only because I'm skeptical because of missing reports online.

Maybe Ukrainians dont put much online about their health? Do people in your country keep their health problems confidential @Hipsman ?

 

[bensmith]

Or maybe they just drop off the “sick world” we all inhabit. Or maybe they never did, if they were mild to mod.

 

[Hipsman]

Maybe Ukrainians dont put much online about their health? Do people in your country keep their health problems confidential @Hipsman ?

Hard to say, from what I observed in Russian and Ukrainian ME/CFS community, people aren't confidential when it comes to going online to ask for help to their health problem.

But when it comes to writing report, they are usually bad at it - loose motivation to write quality report about their experience (whether good or bad) and try to flex without giving away much details and not answering followup questions...

Also, I looked at my consultation diagnose from Markov, it doesn't say "ME/CFS" (he wrote that ME/CFS was considered as diagnosis earlier), it says I have "CBIS" (among other things). So maybe other patients also have "CBIS" in their diagnosis and just don't write "ME/CFS" it their reviews, but "CBIS" instead?

But then CBIS diagnosis doesn't require PEM or other ME/CFS symptomes (correct me if I'm wrong), so you wouldn't know witch of the rewiews that say CBIS actually had ME/CFS...

 

[Perfson]

After searching in google and on their site, i would say that there isn't a single review about ME/CFS treatment in doctor Markov's clinic. Only other diseases. CBIS only mentioned in positive review about treatment of short-sightedness (myopia).

Negative reviews on google:
1. I do not recommend this clinic with homemade vaccines, which finally finished off my immunity. The tests did not confirm any staphylococcus aureus, but Markov said that it was not important that the vaccine was needed, it was simply necessary. After the first injection, I felt bad, but they thought that this was a normal explanatory reaction of the body. I went through the whole course - it didn't get better. After the treatment, it became difficult, edema appeared, the feeling that you were ill. Several years have passed. I feel disgusting. Don't settle for such treatment!

2. I was not too lazy to write a review in order to save people from mistakes, which can be very expensive. Were with the child at this "doctor" Markov. They came with a preliminary diagnosis - mononucleosis. Markov heard that the child had a history of cystitis, and immediately announced that she had staphylococcus aureus and, without confirmation of tests, suggested the first injection of vaccination. Then he offered to take tests for 220$ (converted from 5900 uah) right now in his clinic. He was not concerned that the child had a hearty lunch an hour ago. Uses manipulative techniques in speech. Speaks very confidently and convincingly. I almost agreed, but common sense and maternal intuition won out. A child with a fever should be given an unknown autovaccine against what has not been proven by analyzes .... At the reception, a plump blonde with a short haircut, in response to my questions, was almost indignant. Nervously, hastily poked her fingers on the sheet. It seems that the people in the Sovdepovskoy polyclinic are friendlier. As a result, we passed some of his tests, but not at his clinic. Staphylococcus aureus was not detected either in the pharynx or in the urine !!!! Our diagnosis is Epstein-Barr reactivation. The liver and spleen are doubled. It's hard to imagine what would happen from his homemade vaccines in our case. Take care of yourself and your children from such charlatan businessmen.


But reviews are mostly positive, yet they talk more about how helpful was gynecologist there. Here is link, should probably work. Here is vitacell (Markov's clinic) reviews on their site.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

After searching in google and on their site, i would say that there isn't a single review about ME/CFS treatment in doctor Markov's clinic. Only other diseases. CBIS only mentioned in positive review about treatment of short-sightedness (myopia).

Negative reviews on google:
1. I do not recommend this clinic with homemade vaccines, which finally finished off my immunity. The tests did not confirm any staphylococcus aureus, but Markov said that it was not important that the vaccine was needed, it was simply necessary. After the first injection, I felt bad, but they thought that this was a normal explanatory reaction of the body. I went through the whole course - it didn't get better. After the treatment, it became difficult, edema appeared, the feeling that you were ill. Several years have passed. I feel disgusting. Don't settle for such treatment!

2. I was not too lazy to write a review in order to save people from mistakes, which can be very expensive. Were with the child at this "doctor" Markov. They came with a preliminary diagnosis - mononucleosis. Markov heard that the child had a history of cystitis, and immediately announced that she had staphylococcus aureus and, without confirmation of tests, suggested the first injection of vaccination. Then he offered to take tests for 220$ (converted from 5900 uah) right now in his clinic. He was not concerned that the child had a hearty lunch an hour ago. Uses manipulative techniques in speech. Speaks very confidently and convincingly. I almost agreed, but common sense and maternal intuition won out. A child with a fever should be given an unknown autovaccine against what has not been proven by analyzes .... At the reception, a plump blonde with a short haircut, in response to my questions, was almost indignant. Nervously, hastily poked her fingers on the sheet. It seems that the people in the Sovdepovskoy polyclinic are friendlier. As a result, we passed some of his tests, but not at his clinic. Staphylococcus aureus was not detected either in the pharynx or in the urine !!!! Our diagnosis is Epstein-Barr reactivation. The liver and spleen are doubled. It's hard to imagine what would happen from his homemade vaccines in our case. Take care of yourself and your children from such charlatan businessmen.


But reviews are mostly positive, yet they talk more about how helpful was gynecologist there. Here is link, should probably work. Here is vitacell (Markov's clinic) reviews on their site.

Those two sound very unprofessional… but if the majority is positive… hmmmmm

 

[Hipsman]

Those two sound very unprofessional… but if the majority is positive… hmmmmm

I reread some of the reviews, some of them seemed fake, not all, but some...

 

[Perfson]

I reread some of the reviews, some of them seemed fake, not all, but some...

Yea, few reviews on their site looks fishy to me, but who knows, maybe they are still real.
I can't find negative reviews there, maybe they're not posting them?

I used different search engine and found more! And this time reviews are kinda mixed, but still mostly negative!
Check it out. And here is english version (google translate). Im surprised how well google can translate.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Just picked out a few - that resonates with what I reproached Markov myself. It's a pitty if true.

 

[andyguitar]

Accusing Dr Markov of "medical genocide" gives me the feeling that the reviewer is a bit unbalanced @Martin aka paused||M.E.

 

[Hipsman]

I don't think Dr. Igor Markov would go through all the effort to make that 85-page CBIS paper unless there was really something to his CBIS theory, but only way to know for sure is for members to trial his treatment I guess...

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Accusing Dr Markov of "medical genocide" gives me the feeling that the reviewer is a bit unbalanced @Martin aka paused||M.E.

Yes right you are!

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I don't think Dr. Igor Markov would go through all the effort to make that 85-page CBIS paper unless there was really something to his CBIS theory, but only way to know for sure is for members to trial his treatment I guess...

If my agar plates turn to be out positive I'm ready for it

 

[SWAlexander]

Reading at the moment "Geniale Störung" by Steve Silberman, I found the same and similar BS - Cure for Autism. It would be wise to search for scientific evidence before investing hope and money.

 

[Hip]

I noticed last night that yandex.com, the Russian search engine, seem to be better than Google at finding products like urine dipslides.

I found lots of online stores selling CLED and MacConkey urine dipslides through Yandex, and I tabulated these into the pdf document attached below.

If you live in Continental Europe, you are in luck, as there are many places in Germany selling urine dipslides which can ship to you. Some of these German sellers will ship to the UK, others not.

There do not seem to be many urine dipslide sellers in the US, and they tend to be expensive. However,
Blue Care is a cheap option in the US, it has local shipping warehouses in the US and Europe, and a box of 10 urine dipslides costs $25 including shipping. MFI Medical is a reasonable option, costing $54 with free US shipping.

If you are in the UK, good options are: Dimanco at £21 inc shipping, Aurosan (also on Amazon DE) at €27 incl shipping. Also possible are DocCheck Shop at € incl (slow) shipping and Blue Care (slow shipping).




Some of these online stores sell regular 2-agar CLED + MacConkey urine dipslides, as well as 3-agar urine dipslide with CLED + MacConkey + Enterococcus. The extra Enterococcus agar is designed to cultivate Enterococcus species bacteria (although Enterococcus bacteria will also grow on CLED). Enterococcus is the bacterium Dr Markov most commonly finds in CBIS.

I am going ask the Markov clinic whether there is any advantage of using these 3-agar urine dipslides.



Attachment: Online Stores Selling CLED + MacConkey Urine Dipslides:

 

[Hip]

I found an interesting article: The urine microbiome – Contamination or a novel paradigm?

This talks about the growing number of studies which by molecular methods (such as PCR) are detecting a wide range of micro-organisms in the urine that are not normally detected by standard aerobic urine culture.

This article mentions that even archaea (in the form of Methanobrevibacter smithii) have been found in the urine of 9% of people with suspected UTI.


However, the article also raises the issue of bacteria contamination, where bacteria present on the skin can get washed into the urine stream, and are then detected by molecular methods.

Even urine samples taken midstream can have this contamination, with Enterococcus species and group B Streptococcus being the most common contaminants found in midstream urine tests.

So for the purpose of studies on the urinary microbiome, the authors say that a sterile urethral catheter is best used to obtain the urine sample, at least in women.

I guess this underscores Dr Markov's recommendation to wash the skin around the urethra before providing a urine sample.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

I've just made quick test yesterday. But I did not store it at 37 degrees!!

The green side turned yellow with a very few cultures only.

The red side stayed unaffected.

I will repeat it when I have the possibility to store it correctly but does it have any meaning?

 

[Hip]

The green side turned yellow with a very few cultures only.

Possibly the lack of higher numbers of bacterial cultures on your dipslide might be due to not incubating at body temp of 37°C. But I don't really know, being myself a complete beginner to culturing bacteria.

I had the same issue with the dipslide green CLED agar turning yellow, but I had quite a bit of bacterial growth on this agar, see the image below (the growth is on the right hand side).

Bacterial growth on dipslide CLED agar

When you try to cultivate the bacteria, the tops of the dipslide tubes should be slightly opened, to let in air, as bacteria need oxygen to survive, says Dr Oleg Markov. I place my dipslides in a hot water tank cupboard at a location which is around 37°C. The dipslides I placed inside a plastic food box, with the food box lid slightly opened, again to let in oxygen.

Because bacteria on agar can dry out and die if moisture is lost, I had the idea of placing two tiny plastic cups containing tissue paper wetted with distilled water in the food box, in order to try to maintain humidity in the box. I am not sure whether this is a good idea, but the air in the hot water tank cupboard I use is hot and dry, so I wanted to make sure the bacteria did not dry out.

Dipslides placed in a plastic food box

When I transferred (with a sterile tool — I used a hypodermic needle) some of the bacteria growing on the dipslide CLED agar to a petri dish containing chromogenic agar (brand: Brilliance UTI Clarity), within 5 hours some blue-green streaks appeared on the chromogenic agar where the bacteria had been added, as shown below.

Blue-green streaks on chromogenic agar indicating Enterococcus

Referring to the instructions pdf for this Brilliance UTI Clarity chromogenic agar, the blue-green color indicates the bacteria taken from my dipslide are Enterococcus, which is the bacterium Dr Igor Markov says he most commonly finds in CBIS patients.

Chromogenic agar is an amazingly effective way of identifying the bacteria in your urine. This chromogenic agar I bought is specially designed for detecting UTI bacteria, and the agar turns a different color depending on the species of bacteria growing on it. So you just need to transfer some bacteria from your dipslide to the chromogenic agar in order to identify it.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

@Hip brilliant information again, thank you!

 

[BrightCandle]

Amazing work! I am going to have to do this too.

 

[Hip]

@Martin aka paused||M.E. @Hipsman

The head of the bacteriology department of the Markov Clinic said that when you are doing the 3-day urine test, you should use a fresh new dipslide each morning. I have been doing this, but I have also been re-exposing the older dipslides from previous days to more urine. The idea is this may increase your chances of capturing some bacteria from your urine on the agar.

So on the morning of the first day of the 3-day test, I use a fresh dipslide, and expose it to my morning urine. Then I incubate the dipslide at 37°C for 24 hours.

The next morning (the second morning), I will check that dipslide for bacterial growth. If there is some growth, I might decide to incubate it for another 24 hours to get a bit more growth, after which I will store the dipslide in the fridge at 4°C (these cold temps preserve the bacteria for weeks), with the dipslide tube not fully sealed, in order to let in some air and oxygen.

But on the second morning, if there is no growth on yesterday's dipslide, I will re-expose that old dipslide to more urine, and at the same time, I will expose a fresh new dipslide to urine. So on the second day, you are exposing two dipslides to your urine. By re-using yesterday's dipslide in this way, my idea is that you may increase your chances of capturing some bacteria on the agar.

On the third morning, I will then have two dipslides to check for bacteria growth. If bacterial growth is present, I will put the dipslide in the fridge at 4°C. If there is no growth, I re-expose both dipslides to urine, as well as exposing a fresh third dipslide to urine. So now you may be tripling your chances of catching some bacteria on the agar.

Sometimes with these older dipslides, I will re-expose them to urine twice in the same day, once in the morning, and once again in the evening.




When exposing the dipslides to urine, the end of stream urine is considered best (says Dr Markov). But I typically have been first exposing the dipslide to my midstream urine, and then a few moments later, placing the dipslide back in the urine to catch the end of stream. I am assuming a double exposure like this might hopefully increase the chances of catching some bacteria on the dipslide agar.

As per Dr Markov's instructions, just prior to urinating on the dipslides I always wash with some mild soap the genital skin area just around the urethra, because you do not want to pick up some skin bacteria in your urine, as this may then grow on the agar. You don't want to be growing bacteria from your skin on the agar, but bacteria from the urinary tract.