Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Guwop2]

If you want to check for bacteria in your urine, you can use the agar dipslide method I posted about earlier here. This is how Dr Markov checks for bacteria in the urine.

You can buy a box of 10 agar dipslides in Germany here or here. These have the CLED and MacConkey agars Dr Markov uses. These dipslides are hard to get hold of though, very few places sell them.


It's pretty simple to test for bacteria in the urine: you just pass the dipslide under your stream of urine first thing in the morning. Mid-stream urine is best, or better still, towards the end of the stream. Then once both sides of the dipslide have been exposed to urine, you incubate the dipslide within its plastic tube for 24 hours at body temp (37°C). I found an area in my house hot water cupboard which was very close to 37°C, so this made it easy.

If you do not have such a hot area in your home, you can buy professional dipslide incubators for around $200, but much, much cheaper is an $30 egg incubator like this model, which will work just as well, as these can be digitally set at 37°C.

You have to expose the dipslide to your fresh warm morning urine for 3 days in a row, or even for a few days longer if you like. I used the same dipslide each day, but you can also use a fresh dipslide daily (I am not sure which approach is best). Once you see bacteria growing on the dipslide agar, then you have completed the test, and demonstrated the presence of bacteria.

In principle, Dr Markov would be able to make an autovaccine out of that bacteria, once its species is identified by a microbial identification lab.

The german websites wouldnt let me purchase from the U.K, but these look like the same thing - https://dip-slides.com/home/22-cyst...ent-cled-macconkey-3-dipslides-box-of-10.html .. are they?

 

[Hip]

The german websites wouldnt let me purchase from the U.K, but these look like the same thing - https://dip-slides.com/home/22-cyst...ent-cled-macconkey-3-dipslides-box-of-10.html .. are they?

They are the same thing, but unfortunately the minimum order is 80 boxes. Several other websites I saw in the UK had high minimum orders, so it was not possible to get just of box of 10.

These guys in the UK have a minimum order of 10 boxes. This website in the US has no minimum order, but is very expensive.

There are many websites online that will provide you with an address in other countries so that you can shop abroad, and then they will forward the goods to you for a small fee. They are called reshipping or forwarding companies.

 

[Hipsman]

It's pretty simple to test for bacteria in the urine: you just pass the dipslide under your stream of urine first thing in the morning. Mid-stream urine is best, or better still, towards the end of the stream.

Where did you find info that Mid-stream is best? In Markov's clinic they told me to use the end of the stream...

 

[Hip]

Where did you find info that Mid-stream is best? In Markov's clinic they told me to use the end of the stream...

Yes, I remember you mentioning that, and that's why said that towards the end of the stream is better.

But normally for urine bacterial tests, they tell you to use mid-stream. The main reason is that the first part of your urine may be contaminated with bacteria from your skin.

I actually used mid-stream, and the a few moments later when my bladder was nearly empty, I placed the dipslide once again under my stream of urine, to get the end stream portion also.



For anyone who is testing their urine: Dr Markov also recommends that you wash your genitals with soap around the urethra area before passing urine for this test. This is to try to prevent any bacteria that may be on your genital skin from getting on the dipslide agar.

And of course, you should not touch the dipslide agar, because you may again contaminate with bacteria on your skin. Just hold the dipslide at its end, holding its plastic lid.

 

[Cipher]

I ordered this dipslide recently (ships from Germany) which contains 3 different agar plates; CLED, MacConkey and Malt (fungi). I'll report back when I've received and tested it.

 

[Hip]

I ordered this dipslide recently (ships from Germany) which contains 3 different agar plates; CLED, MacConkey and Malt (fungi). I'll report back when I've received and tested it.

That's a good find, and a good price too.

From the same website, possibly their CLED, MacConkey and Enterococcus triple agar dipslide might be advantageous, since it contains an agar specially for Enterococcus, which is the bacterium that Dr Markov most commonly finds in his CBIS ME/CFS patients.

Looks like the same CLED, MacConkey and Enterococcus dipslide can be bought here too (this company can ship from Europe, the US and Hong Kong).

 

[Cipher]

Interesting info from the dipslide instructions:

In the case of a negative result, the cultures can be incubated for a further 24 hours to detect slow-growing bacteria

 

[hb8847]

@Hip , are you looking to do anything about your urine bacteria results then? What are your next steps in this area, if anything?

 

[lint7]

Would a urine test with Aperiomics not find any bacteria that might be there?

 

[Learner1]

It was only urine tests why I'm baffled. I also have high levels of mold metabolites in the urine, it's all in my thread “what's next”.
I will further investigate that! If it turns out that on agar plates there is also an overgrowth I might want to contact Dr. Markov too.

Looks like you have an unhealthy mix of bacteria in your microbiome. Exactly how does Markov's autovaccines selectively get rid of those causing harm plus repopulating with healthier ones? Like the saccharomyces boulardii and lactobacillus rhamnosis and other high potency probiotics suggested by your test? How does the autovaccine NOT inadvertently kill off other bacteria you need?

Seems like your microbiome and mycotoxin exposure are very good clues for you.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Exactly how does Markov's autovaccines selectively get rid of those causing harm plus repopulating with healthier ones?

That's a question I also have asked myself and I think it is not possible to selectively kill these bacteria only in the kidneys. A vaccine is always a systemic treatment. So you will kill the exact strain also in the gut, skin, everywhere.
I think - IIRC - Dr Markov said that it is not harmful. But I don't know. If we just consider him to be right and his report to be adequate then I think you can forget about it because the patients got better even if the bacteria was killed everywhere. The question is what the 5% non-responders experienced. Otherwise it could mean that you perhaps get a worse digestion for a better overall health - that would be a price I would happily pay!

 

[Learner1]

That's a question I also have asked myself and I think it is not possible to selectively kill these bacteria only in the kidneys. A vaccine is always a systemic treatment. So you will kill the exact strain also in the gut, skin, everywhere.
I think - IIRC - Dr Markov said that it is not harmful. But I don't know. If we just consider him to be right and his report to be adequate then I think you can forget about it because the patients got better even if the bacteria was killed everywhere. The question is what the 5% non-responders experienced. Otherwise it could mean that you perhaps get a worse digestion for a better overall health - that would be a price I would happily pay!

From what's been reported here, there doesn't seem to be a bunch of cured patients running around, unfortunately. At the very least, they are suspiciously quiet about their good fortune...

The suggestions for your situation are to increase S. Boulardii and L. rhamnosis, as well as a high potency probiotic. That doesn't sound like killing one or more specific bacteria. It also doesn't do anything for mycotoxins, does it? The typical advice for mycotoxins is to bind them and use a lot of glutathione, etc. to flush them out, which doesn't sound like what the autovaccine does, unfortunately.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

From what's been reported here, there doesn't seem to be a bunch of cured patients running around, unfortunately. At the very least, they are suspiciously quiet about their good fortune...

The suggestions for your situation are to increase S. Boulardii and L. rhamnosis, as well as a high potency probiotic. That doesn't sound like killing one or more specific bacteria. It also doesn't do anything for mycotoxins, does it? The typical advice for mycotoxins is to bind them and use a lot of glutathione, etc. to flush them out, which doesn't sound like what the autovaccine does, unfortunately.

You know, I'm skeptical too... But I'm also very severe since years... What else out there!? I will definitely treat my mold (and it's unfortunately more than just binders and NAC - very expensive + lifestyle changes) and treat my gut.

BUT I won't let go a chance only because I'm skeptical because of missing reports online.

I know now three patients who have bacterial overgrowth on their dip slices and a healthy control (mother) who doesn't.
I really think it's worth to investigate this

 

[Hip]

Would a urine test with Aperiomics not find any bacteria that might be there?

Judging by this article, Aperiomics next generation sequencing is a more sensitive method of detecting pathogens in the urine, able to detect pathogens that traditional urine culture testing methods miss (such as viruses).

However, because it is necessary to isolate and culture the kidney dysbiosis bacteria in order to make an autovaccine that targets that bacteria, Aperiomics cannot replace the traditional urine culture test in this circumstance.

But Aperiomics might be useful for identifications purposes. Unfortunately I believe Aperiomics testing pretty expensive (I think the cost was over $500 last time I checked). And for some reason, the test order page on the Aperiomics site is not working at present.




An interesting urine bacteria detection system is chromogenic agar. This is an agar on which you can grow bacteria, and the agar changes color depending on the species of bacteria growing. So the color allows you to immediately identify the bacteria, without needing to send any samples to a lab.

Dr Markov uses chromogenic agar to assist with bacterial identification.

Below is a picture of a chromogenic agar specifically designed to identify urinary tract infections; you can see that different UTI bacteria placed on the agar result in different colors:

Chromogenic Agar For Identify Urinary Tract Infections

Color Key
1 = Proteus mirabilis
2 = Enterococcus faecalis
3 = Klebsiella pneumoniae
4 = Pseudomonas aeruginosa
5 = Escherichia coli
6 = Staphylococcus aureus

Source: here

I found this chromogenic agar product for detecting UTI bacteria, but unfortunately it is expensive.

 

[Hip]

@Hip , are you looking to do anything about your urine bacteria results then? What are your next steps in this area, if anything?

Yes, last week I contacted the Markov Vitacell clinic, and enquired about the possibly of becoming a remote patient of Dr Igor Markov, ie, the possibility of having a remote consultation with Dr Markov, and being tested, diagnosed and treated without having to travel to Kyiv.

I am communicating with Dr Oleg Markov (the brother of Dr Igor Markov), and we have both started exploring this remote patient possibly. He tells me that that clinic has not done this before, as they usually have distant ME/CFS patients or their relatives visit them, carrying the bacterial samples with them on the airplane, and carrying the autovaccines back home by airplane.

So Dr Oleg Markov and I are currently looking into the logistics and legal regulations of me shipping bacteria extracted from my urine to Dr Igor Markov in Kyiv, so that if appropriate, he can prepare an autovaccine from it.

The head of the Markov clinic's bacteriological department is also weighing in on our discussion, as it may be necessary to devise a means to ship these bacteria on Nutrient agar in a test tube (called Nutrient agar slopes or slants, which look like this), in order to prevent the bacteria from drying out and dying in transit. So the bacteria grown on the dipslide may have to be transferred to the Nutrient agar in the test tubes by a sterile tool. But it's not clear as yet whether this will be necessary.

So there are some complexities to consider, but so far, it looks like from the shipping regulation perspective, it is feasible to ship these bacteria, as commensal organisms in the human gut or urinary tract are classed as non-pathogenic, and thus can be shipped. Some details in the WHO regulations for international shipping of infectious substances, pages 5 to 7.

If we can sort out the transport logistics and regulations, I will attempt to become a remote patient of Dr Markov, and if I get a CBIS diagnosis from him, I hope to try out his autovaccine treatment.

If this works out, I will write up all the details of what we have learnt regarding remote patients logistics, so that if anyone else here is considering autovaccine therapy, they will have a full set of instructions to follow.


Dr Igor Markov told me that a remote email initial consultation with him will cost $200, and if any further email consultations are required, these are $100 each (but they may not be necessary). An initial video consultation he says is $300. I am going use email rather than video, because I find it easier to compose my thoughts via email communication.

Then each course of 10 autovaccines shots is $100. In the first year you would normally have 2 or 3 such courses, so the total upfront costs for the first year of consultation and treatment would be $400 to $500, excluding any shipping costs, and the costs of buying dipslides, agars for shipping, etc.

I think by the end of the first year of autovaccine treatment, you should know if your ME/CFS is getting a bit better. If it is, then you may decide to continue with the treatment, which will cost $200 to $300 for the second year (the cost of the autovaccines), and the same again for the third year, if a third year of treatment is necessary (it takes 2 to 3 years to reach remission, Dr Markov says).


I would think that if anyone is interested in this autovaccine treatment, a good first step might be to get hold of some CLED and MacConkey urine dipslides, and then check that you can observe a bacterial growth on the dipslide agar when following Dr Markov's high sensitivity urine culture protocol.

Because if you cannot get any bacteria from your urine to grow on the dipslide, then it may not be possible to create an autovaccine. Although I understand in these circumstances, Dr Markov can prepare an autovaccine from bacteria found in nasal mucous samples, but I am not sure how effective that is in terms of treating ME/CFS.

 

[Abha]

From the same website, possibly their CLED, MacConkey and Enterococcus triple agar dipslide might be advantageous, since it contains an agar specially for Enterococcus, which is the bacterium that Dr Markov most commonly finds in his CBIS ME/CFS patients.

@Hip.....I have just checked the price of these to UK...with shipping/VAT etc...It comes to about 45Eur....Have you managed to find anything just as good and possibly cheaper? If so where?...Thanks

 

[bensmith]

I never imagined getting access from home, that would be a dream if they worked. Thanks hip.

 

[Hip]

@Hip.....I have just checked the price of these to UK...with shipping/VAT etc...It comes to about 45Eur....Have you managed to find anything just as good and possibly cheaper? If so where?...Thanks

I bought my dipslides from a seller on the UK eBay, for £25, but that listing is now gone.

DCS Products in the UK sell dipslides. They do not have the required CLED and MacConkey dipslides on their website, but they do say you can contact them to see what other dipslides they can supply.



EDIT: just found these guys: TCS Biosciences, who sell a box of CLED and MacConkey urine dipslides, but they have high delivery costs, so the total cost is £40.

 

[Guwop2]

I bought my dipslides from a seller on the UK eBay, for £25, but that listing is now gone.

DCS Products in the UK sell dipslides. They do not have the required CLED and MacConkey dipslides on their website, but they do say you can contact them to see what other dipslides they can supply.



EDIT: just found these guys: TCS Biosciences, who sell a box of CLED and MacConkey urine dipslides, but they have high delivery costs, so the total cost is £40.

and you said we can culture them using that egg incubator? ( i think you linked it in another post - https://www.amazon.co.uk/M-Z-incuba...ncoding=UTF8&refRID=H5H51JF3AZ80V3DAK6YS&th=1)

 

[Hip]

and you said we can culture them using that egg incubator? ( i think you linked it in another post - https://www.amazon.co.uk/M-Z-incuba...ncoding=UTF8&refRID=H5H51JF3AZ80V3DAK6YS&th=1)

Yes, you can use an egg incubator if it has a numerical temperature setting, so that it can be set to body temperature of 37°C.



Another German dipslide, €9 from Intermed here.