Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Eddy M]

"Clinical algorithm for diagnostics and treatment of cfs/me (CBIS)" and the other dont sound like papers to me. The $60 includes a questionaire for diagnosis. So it sounds more like a guide to diagnosis and treatment. As he is running a private health clinic then I would expect a fee for this. It would'nt be free in the UK.

I just want to point of the different red flags. It's the combination of the factors.
The diagnostic algorithm could be included in the paper. Selling a paper with a questionnaire (not validated btw) seems odd to me.

The 85 page document is free, that contains Reports 1 to 6, and can be downloaded here.


The purchasing power of a dollar is more in the Ukraine, but not that much more, as far as I can see.

The Big Mac Economic Index, which gives the dollar price of a Big Mac hamburger in different countries, is a common way to gauge the purchasing power of one dollar each country.

Using that index, we can work out that having $100 in the Ukraine would have the equivalent buying power of having around $257 in the US.


Dr Markov's total treatment costs are about $1500, which covers appointments, consultations and the preparation autovaccines to cover 2-3 years therapy. That sounds reasonable, but to someone in the Ukraine it would be the equivalent of paying nearly $4000 in the US.

I live in a country where the minimum wage is 250 USD, top doctor consultation 25 USD, Cataract surgery 300-500 USD, BIG MAC price : 3.3 USD but where electronic devices and cars are more expensive than the US. Real life is different.
The big mac index is not really representative.
You can ask about eastern europe. 100 USD is not 257 USD.

 

[Hip]

The big mac index is not really representative.
You can ask about eastern europe. 100 USD is not 257 USD.

The Big Mac Index, which was devised by the Economist magazine, is very simple, that's it beauty. But a more precise gauge would look at a cross-section of goods and services that are needed for daily life.

 

[Eddy M]

The Big Mac Index, which was devised by the Economist magazine, is very simple, that's it beauty. But a more precise gauge would look at a cross-section of goods and services that are needed for daily life.

I am just having some reservation about Dr Markov research. As an ME patient I really hope i am wrong, but we are a vulnerable population. We need more serious research.

 

[perrier]

One more point: There strong financial incentive from the authors

Just look at this page: https://cbis.vitacell.com.ua/en

Normally scientists don't sell their papers, they publish them in scientific papers and give them for free if you ask them directly. I don't know about ukranian culture.

Ukraine is a post genocidal and post colonised country slowly trying to come out of the Soviet system. Economically it is not a stable European country quite yet, though various sectors are moving in that direction-- and so making a buck is on everyone's mind. You see this in the universities and in medicine and everywhere really. But the Ukrainian people are a highly educated folk, with many of the intelligentsia with a very strong scientific training, excellent inventiveness, and resourcefulness. But money is always an issue. I wish that Dr Markov had the opportunity to chat with someone at OMF (@HTester @Janet Dafoe ) to see if the theory is viable.

 

[Hipsman]

When did you begin the treatment? Did you feel any result? Are more people trying the treatment.

I started the treatment on June 30 and wrote about it here. I didn't have any significant improvements or side-effects as of now, but I haven't finished first cycle of vaccines, as of now I got 6 out of 7 vaccine shots...

I remember reading that 2 more people from ME/CFS discord server are interested in trying this treatment very soon...

 

[Hip]

There is a nice Wikipedia article on sepsis, which gives an overview on this condition. Sepsis may be very pertinent to Dr Markov's CBIS theory of ME/CFS.

Dr David Bell hypothesized that ME/CFS might be a sort of chronic low-level sepsis, and the Markov CBIS theory would certainly fit into that description.

Sepsis is an exaggerated, dysregulated inflammatory immune response caused an infection. But interestingly, it's not the pathogens themselves which cause sepsis, but the toxins these pathogens secrete.

For example, sepsis caused by gram negative bacteria is thought to be largely caused by the bacterial toxin LPS secreted by the bacteria. And sepsis caused by gram positive bacteria may result from lipoteichoic acid, which is the gram positive bacteria's equivalent to LPS.


Sepsis can be caused by a bacterial infection in the blood (septicemia) which is releasing these bacterial toxins. But the Wikipedia article says sepsis can also be caused by an infection localized to a specific organ or area of the body, with common infected areas being the lungs, brain, urinary tract, skin and abdominal organs.

So in the case of full-on sepsis (which is a very serious life-threatening condition), the entire body is affected, yet the infection itself can be localized to one organ. The infection is localized to an organ, but the toxins released by the infection enter the bloodstream and impact the entire body.


In the case of this hypothesized chronic low-level sepsis proposed by Dr Bell, you might expect the localized infection in the organ to be much milder, as Dr Bell is envisaging a chronic low-grade form of sepsis to be behind ME/CFS, not a full-on form of sepsis.

So the mild dysbiosis infection of the kidneys that Dr Markov finds in ME/CFS patients could be the infectious source of such a low-grade form of sepsis.

 

[andyguitar]

But interestingly, it's not the pathogens themselves which cause sepsis, but the toxins these pathogens secrete.

It's an idea that has been around scince bacteria were first identified. Autointoxication was one of the terms used and was the reason given for a range of chronic diseases.

 

[Hip]

It's an idea that has been around scince bacteria were first identified. Autointoxication was one of the terms used and was the reason given for a range of chronic diseases.

Yes, indeed. The focal infection theory of chronic disease goes back about 120 years in its modern form, according to this Wikipedia article.

Focal infection theory went into decline after the 1950s, but was revived again in the 1990s onwards, as a result of new research finding links between dental infections like periodontal disease and heart disease.

I have seen 3 stories of ME/CFS patients going into remission after they had surgery to remove chronic infections they had in a jawbone cavitation (a hollow pocket within the jawbone which can become infected).

 

[andyguitar]

I have seen 3 stories of ME/CFS patients going into remission after they had surgery to remove chronic infections they had in a jawbone cavitation (a hollow pocket within the jawbone which can become infected).

Having looked at many old medical books over the years dental infection is often mentioned as a site from which the "Autointoxication" originated from.

 

[andyguitar]

If the bacterial toxins found in ME/CFS patients' blood originate from a kidney dysbiosis infection, why don't strong antibiotics generally improve ME/CFS symptoms, at least temporarily?

It might be that the toxins persist in the blood for days/weeks. The effect of Enterotoxin and Lipopolysacchardes (LPS) on cytokine levels might be to elevate them for days. This research, done using human cells, shows the levels of some cytokines are elevated for up to 96 hours when exposed to LPS associated with Staphyloccus Aureus.

 

[Hipsman]

Update: I have gone through first vaccines cycle (7 shots), for the last 4 days I experience mild improvement in energy levels, it's clearly noticeable, but I'm not 100% sure it's from Dr. Markov's treatment or just a lucky coincidence, need more time to make sure it's not just a short term improvement...

Also, I have not changed any of my other medications since one month before the start of Dr. Markov's treatment, so there is very little chance it's something else that's giving the improvement...

Here is my log:

17 July
Feel significant improvement in energy levels, it's relatively mild, doesn't give me the ability to do new things, but makes every day routine a little bit easier.

18 July - 20 July (present)
Still feel the same improvement in energy levels.

Dr. Igor Markov did tell me that there will be incremental improvements, if things continue in the same direction, then there should be more improvements after second vaccine cycle...

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Update: I have gone through first vaccines cycle (7 shots), for the last 4 days I experience mild improvement in energy levels, it's clearly noticeable, but I'm not 100% sure it's from Dr. Markov's treatment or just a lucky coincidence, need more time to make sure it's not just a short term improvement...

Also, I have not changed any of my other medications since one month before the start of Dr. Markov's treatment, so there is very little chance it's something else that's giving the improvement...

Here is my log:


Dr. Igor Markov did tell me that there will be incremental improvements, if things continue in the same direction, then there should be more improvements after second vaccine cycle...

I hope hope and hope that it will go on and upwards for you! I hope all my and others' criticism was wrong and we will see good results... Then I say goodbye to Germany and hello to Kyiv... Good luck to you and thank you for doing this!

 

[Hipsman]

I hope hope and hope that it will go on and upwards for you! I hope all my and others' criticism was wrong and we will see good results... Then I say goodbye to Germany and hello to Kyiv... Good luck to you and thank you for doing this!

Thanks for the support! I hope it's the vaccines that gave the improvement, but I stay unbiased and will only say that this treatment works when it gives very significant improvements for 4-5 months straight, that way I would be 100% sure it's a real deal and worth it.

 

[Hip]

Very interesting comments from the Phage Therapy Center in Georgia, regarding phage therapy for ME/CFS. Phages are viruses which infect and kill the specific bacteria they target (but are harmless to humans).

The comments from Georgia seem to reflect and support Dr Markov's theory of ME/CFS.

Phage Therapy for ME/CFS

Our Opinion

Sometimes patients who believe they have chronic fatigue syndrome are actually suffering from a toxin overload that is produced by a particular strain of pathogenic bacteria. By clearing the treatable bacterial infections and utilizing various techniques to help reduce the toxin loads, there can be much improvement in the patient's overall condition.

Our Experience with Chronic Infections

Patients who have or who have had long term bacterial infections and who have taken antibiotics for extended periods may have serious damage to their immune systems, making them more susceptible to infection.

Chronic infections are biofilms, they are colonies of a number of bacteria that together form colonies in various parts of the body - the sinuses, urinary tract, prostate and elsewhere that are inherently more resistant to antibiotics.

While in-vitro lab tests may show sensitivity to various antibacterials, such infections typically do not respond to antibiotics. Dr. Tim Lu (MIT), a professor at MIT, explains why biofilms are antibiotic resistant, and why bacteriophage therapy can be effective:

Dr. Tim Lu - Biofilms and Phage Therapy​

If you have dysbiosis and/or an infection that is caused by one of the treatable genuses (Staphylococcus spp., Streptococcus spp., Enterococcus spp., E. coli, Proteus spp., Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Salmonella spp., Shigella spp., Clostridium difficile (C.Diff), Klebsiella spp., Morganella spp. and several others) there is a good chance we can help - but NO GUARANTEE.

You will need to test for the presence of these treatable pathogens and even if they are cleared, sometimes symptoms will persist.

Our Approach

Test to see if you have one of the treatable genuses of pathogenic bacteria. If you do, we can usually treat it and perhaps your symptoms will be reduced or eliminated. Based on our experience, it is common even for people who come to our clinic with ME/CFS to experience dramatic improvement after treating infections like E. coli.

Indications that you may be a good candidate for phage therapy is intestinal disorders caused by bacterial infection or dysbiosis.

The Phage Therapy Center say that ME/CFS can be due to "a toxin overload that is produced by a particular strain of pathogenic bacteria". This is what Dr Markov is also saying.

 

[Hipsman]

From above Phage Therapy Center in Georgia quote:

Indications that you may be a good candidate for phage therapy is intestinal disorders caused by bacterial infection or dysbiosis.

After a year or so of having ME/CFS I developed a disorder where I have to pee very frequently whenever I feel even a little stressed or exited like going for a walk or playing video games, it’s annoying. I wonder if this is the type of disorder they are talking about?

 

[Hip]

After a year or so of having ME/CFS I developed a disorder where I have to pee very frequently whenever I feel even a little stressed or exited like going for a walk or playing video games, it’s annoying.

That condition may be overactive bladder (also called irritable bladder), which is due to the bladder muscle becoming too "nervous", so that it contracts in involuntary spasms, making you need to find a toilet urgently.

I developed overactive bladder myself, but over a decade before being hit with ME/CFS. I started going out with a new girlfriend, and then was suddenly hit with overactive bladder.

At the time, I thought it was strange how this condition could just suddenly appear; but in retrospect, given what I have now learnt about medical science, I suspect I must have caught some pathogen (virus or bacterium) from that girlfriend, which chronically infected the bladder, triggering overactive bladder.

Overactive bladder is one of the known common comorbidities of ME/CFS. There is also a similar condition called interstitial cystitis (IC), but this is much worse than overactive bladder, because IC also involves a lot of pain.

I don't think overactive bladder is classed as an intestinal disorder.

But I suspect overactive bladder (OB) may be linked to the Markov CBIS theory of ME/CFS, because in OB, there is damage to the protective glycosaminoglycan layer (GAG layer) in the bladder, which possibly may allow bacterial toxins from a urinary tract dysbiosis to enter the bloodstream.

You can actually repair the GAG layer by instilling a solution of chondroitin sulphate into the bladder. See this post. It's not easy to do though, as it involves passing a catheter tube down your urethra in order to inject this solution into the bladder. The repair is not permanent though, and so I believe you will need to keep instilling chondroitin sulphate solution regularly to keep the GAG layer healthy.

I looked into using chondroitin sulphate solution to fix my OB, but never really got around to trying it. But now in the context of the Markov CBIS theory of ME/CFS, I might try to fix my OB, which then may mean that it lowers the amount of bacterial toxins entering my blood.

 

[Flnn]

From above Phage Therapy Center in Georgia quote:

After a year or so of having ME/CFS I developed a disorder where I have to pee very frequently whenever I feel even a little stressed or exited like going for a walk or playing video games, it’s annoying. I wonder if this is the type of disorder they are talking about?

I also have this same issue...

 

[Nuno]

From above Phage Therapy Center in Georgia quote:

After a year or so of having ME/CFS I developed a disorder where I have to pee very frequently whenever I feel even a little stressed or exited like going for a walk or playing video games, it’s annoying. I wonder if this is the type of disorder they are talking about?

+1, what surprises me the most is near morning time, while Im still in bed, I get this urge to pee like 2 or 3 times, even barely drinking water.
Which makes me think something is wrong.

Also some stuff at play that I heard some people mention is oxalate dumping and such, but still doesnt make much sense since healthy people dont have this urge.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

+1, what surprises me the most is near morning time, while Im still in bed, I get this urge to pee like 2 or 3 times, even barely drinking water.
Which makes me think something is wrong.

Also some stuff at play that I heard some people mention is oxalate dumping and such, but still doesnt make much sense since healthy people dont have this urge.

I had this already before ME... Not sure if this is genetics+epigenetics and ME or is completely unrelated

 

[bensmith]

I have had this too in my me journey but has cleared up lately.