Dr Markov CBIS Theory of ME/CFS - General Discussion

[Alvin2]

I agree I have trouble believing his success rates. But the science does seem to make sense at least.

It does not, its a theory with no data.

And while scepticism and low expectations is probably healthy for ME sufferers, at some point negativity just for the sake of it is counterproductive. We may as well keep open minds until we've got some more data to go on.

I made a post earlier in this thread about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so its worth some investigation but the likelihood of this being correct is very low. Not to mention this is a when your a hammer everything in a nail situation, he prescribes this treatment for a multitude of unrelated diseases with again no data

 

[sometexan84]

This clinically locally asymptomatic latent focus of chronic bacterial infection in the kidneys (Nephrodysbacteriosis© ) is due to a post-antibiotic disorder of local immunity of the kidneys mucous membranes in more than 90% of children&adults w/ ME/CFS-CBIS after over-use of antibiotics (often - beginning from childhood, especially by repeated and long courses).

I don't recall ever being given a large amount of antibiotics. In fact, I can't remember taking antibiotics, ever.

and confirmed by mi madre

 

[Hip]

It does not, its a theory with no data.

A great deal of data was provided in this thread by Dr Oleg Markov, such as:

➤ Data on the percentage of ME/CFS patients testing positive for nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS (95%), versus the percentage of adult healthy controls testing positive (7%).

➤ Data on the efficacy of autovaccine treatment, which is reported to cure ME/CFS in 93% of cases. And when the recovery appears, the nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS become negative. This 93% recovery figure was derived from 4288 patients who were treated at the clinic from 2009 to 2021.

➤ Data on the prevalence of ME/CFS among the nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS-positive patients: 52% who were positive for CBIS were found to satisfy the CDC 1994 Fukuda criteria for ME/CFS.

➤ Data on the bacteria found in CBIS patients: Enterococcus in 37% of patients, Escherichia coli in 25%, Staphylococcus in 10%, Klebsiella in 9%, Streptococcus in 5%, Enterobacter in 4%, Morganella in 2%, and a few other bacterial species.

➤ Data on the cure rate versus length of ME/CFS illness: the cure rate being 95% to 100% in patients who have had ME/CFS for less than 5 years, but for those who have had ME/CFS for more than 5 years, the cure rate is 90% or less.

➤ Data on the duration of treatment, which is 6 months to 2-3 years, with Dr Markov observing that patients who have been ill longer requiring a more protracted autovaccine treatment to bring them to recovery.

➤ Data on how quickly patients respond to treatment: with improvements seen during the first three weeks, though with an up and down course in health observed during the treatment, but with the overall health direction being upwards.

➤ Data on the severity of ME/CFS patients who are treated, with Dr Markov reporting full success even in severe patients.

➤ Data on relapse rate, with Dr Markov finding most ME/CFS patients with CBIS returning to a normal life without relapses, and never returning to the clinic. But he reports a few patients who completely recovered via autovaccine treatment may get a relapse after around 5 to 7 years (but further autovaccine therapy can fix this).

➤ Data of the safety of the therapy: Dr Markov reports none of the ME/CFS patients had complications or negative side reactions to vaccine treatment.


That's quite a bit of data. In fact, I cannot remember any ME/CFS clinical trial which produced data as comprehensive and long term as this.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

A great deal of data was provided in this thread by Dr Oleg Markov, such as:

➤ Data on the percentage of ME/CFS patients testing positive for nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS (95%), versus the percentage of adult healthy controls testing positive (7%).

➤ Data on the efficacy of autovaccine treatment, which is reported to cure ME/CFS in 93% of cases. And when the recovery appears, the nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS become negative. This 93% recovery figure was derived from 4288 patients who were treated at the clinic from 2009 to 2021.

➤ Data on the prevalence of ME/CFS among the nephrodysbacteriosis and CBIS-positive patients: 52% who were positive for CBIS were found to satisfy the CDC 1994 Fukuda criteria for ME/CFS.

➤ Data on the cure rate versus length of ME/CFS illness: the cure rate being 95% to 100% in patients who have had ME/CFS for less than 5 years, but for those who have had ME/CFS for more than 5 years, the cure rate is 90% or less.

➤ Data on the duration of treatment, which is 6 months to 2-3 years, with Dr Markov observing that patients who have been ill longer requiring a more protracted autovaccine treatment to bring them to recovery.

➤ Data on how quickly patients respond to treatment: with improvements seen during the first three weeks, though with an up and down course in health observed during the treatment, but with the overall health direction being upwards.

➤ Data on the severity of ME/CFS patients who are treated, with Dr Markov reporting full success even in severe patients.

➤ Data on relapse rate, with Dr Markov finding most ME/CFS patients with CBIS returning to a normal life without relapses, and never returning to the clinic. But he reports a few patients who completely recovered via autovaccine treatment may get a relapse after around 5 to 7 years (but further autovaccine therapy can fix this).

➤ Data of the safety if the therapy: Dr Markov reports none of the ME/CFS patients had complications or negative side reactions to vaccine treatment.


That's quite a bit of data. In fact, I cannot remember any ME/CFS clinical trial which produced data as comprehensive and long term as this.

I'm sorry hip, you know how much respect I have for you and that I support hipsman and hope the very best. But please don't say “data” when we only have “claims”.
I hope it will cure us. But it's not knowledge, it's hope. Data is knowledge.

 

[hb8847]

its worth some investigation but the likelihood of this being correct is very low

As is every treatment for an illness with no cure. But one day a cure will be found, that's the whole point of investigating new ones, even if the chance of each individual one being a success is limited.

 

[Hip]

please don't say “data” when we only have “claims”.

The data contained in even published scientific papers are just "claims". We hope or trust that the claims made by the study authors are honest and correct, but we have no absolute assurance of that. Often the claims turn out to be false because of error or poor methodology; and very occasionally because the authors are dishonest.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

The data contained in even published scientific papers are just "claims". We hope or trust that the claims made by the study authors are honest and correct, but we have no absolute assurance of that. Often the claims turn out to be false because of error or poor methodology; and very occasionally because the authors are dishonest.

That's why I first scroll down to look for potential bias and why I repeatedly said here that we need replication. Because then we have more than just claims from Dr. Markov. Anyway, don't want to argue with you! Let us just all support @Hipsman and hope for the very best!

 

[Hip]

It's aways good to hear skeptical opinions, and good for the skeptics and "believers" to battle it out.

But when @Hipsman spoke to Dr Igor Markov today, he told @Hipsman that Dr Oleg Markov is having trouble following this thread, I guess in part due to language issues, and perhaps in part because we are taking the thread a bit off topic by discussing many side issues. I am more guilty than most of bringing up side issues.


Dr Oleg Markov is not due back on this thread until 29 June, but possibly it may be an idea for us to organize another thread where there are just direct questions and answers to Oleg Markov, and different thread where we can debate all the side topics, as well as express for and against opinions on this CBIS theory of ME/CFS.

That may make it easier for Dr Oleg Markov to follow the thread and respond to questions. Most of what we have learnt here comes from him taking the time to answer our questions.

we need replication

Naturally, and if we start to see patients on this forum getting this autovaccine treatment, we should have our own home-grown replication study.

The claim is that this autovaccine treatment can cure 93%. If true, that is a powerful effect, and one that would be impossible to miss. Although the issue is that it can take 2-3 years treatment in patients who have had ME/CFS for over 3 years, according to what Oleg Markov posted earlier, so that is quite a while to wait to get replication.

If people we know with ME/CFS for less than 3 years get treatment, however, that should bring results in 6 months. So that would be faster.

Although if they have had ME/CFS for less than 2 years and were cured after treatment, you would always be wondering whether they just had post-viral fatigue, which can clear up on its own within 2 years. So patients with ME/CFS for between 2 and 3 years would be ideal test subjects for autovaccine treatment.

 

[hb8847]

Dr Oleg Markov is not due back on this thread until 29 June, but possibly it may be an idea for us to organize another thread where there are just direct questions and answers to Oleg Markov, and different thread where we can debate all the side topics, as well as express for and against opinions on this CBIS theory of ME/CFS.

Excellent idea. I reckon keep this thread for the general discussion as it's already gone off course. Would be great to have a thread purely dedicated to Markov Q&A, we can always copy his answers back here for discussion.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

It's aways good to hear skeptical opinions, and good for the skeptics and "believers" to battle it out.

But when @Hipsman spoke to Dr Igor Markov today, he told @Hipsman that Dr Oleg Markov is having trouble following this thread, I guess in part due to language issues, and perhaps in part because we are taking the thread a bit off topic by discussing many side issues. I am more guilty than most of bringing up side issues.


Dr Oleg Markov is not due back on this thread until 29 June, but possibly it may be an idea for us to organize another thread where there are just direct questions and answers to Oleg Markov, and different thread where we can debate all the side topics, as well as express for and against opinions on this CBIS theory of ME/CFS.

That may make it easier for Dr Oleg Markov to follow the thread and respond to questions. Most of what we have learnt here comes from him taking the time to answer our questions.





Naturally, and if we start to see patients on this forum getting this autovaccine treatment, we should have our own home-grown replication study.

The claim is that this autovaccine treatment can cure 93%. If true, that is a powerful effect, and one that would be impossible to miss. Although the issue is that it can take 2-3 years treatment in patients who have had ME/CFS for over 3 years, according to what Oleg Markov posted earlier, so that is quite a while to wait to get replication.

If people we know with ME/CFS for less than 3 years get treatment, however, that should bring results in 6 months. So that would be faster.

Although if they have had ME/CFS for less than 2 years and were cured after treatment, you would always be wondering whether they just had post-viral fatigue, which can clear up on its own within 2 years. So patients with ME/CFS for between 2 and 3 years would be ideal test subjects for autovaccine treatment.

The extra thread is a good idea!
Ok he said cured. But improvements should be seen earlier. I remember he wrote that in the beginning it’s getting better and then comes a time when health is declining again and so on… so these patterns should be noticeable much earlier I think.

 

[Hip]

Here is another of my side track thoughts:

Dr Oleg Markov said that these bacterial dysbiosis infections which occur in the kidneys are due to dysfunction in mucosal immunity.

That is to say, on the mucous membrane areas of the body, the immune system is struggling to keep pathogens in check.

The mucous membranes include mouth, gums, throat, nose, sinuses, stomach and intestines, as well as the kidneys too, as I learnt that there are some mucous membranes in the kidneys as well.

This certainly ties up with some of the phenomena we see in ME/CFS, like the chronic or recurrent sore throat that never quite goes away, the chronic nasal or sinus inflammation or congestion; dysbiosis in the colon, and SIBO in the small intestine.

That all looks like ME/CFS patients are having trouble controlling mucosal pathogens.


So if weak mucosal immunity is the cause of the kidney bacterial dysbiosis that Dr Markov says causes ME/CFS, is there anything we can do that might ramp up mucosal immunity?

I know for example that the fungal probiotic Saccharomyces boulardii boosts secretory IgA, which is an important part of mucosal immunity. IgA is the most important antibody at the mucous membranes. I have taken Saccharomyces boulardii quite bit, as I found it reduced intestinal inflammation, which in turn very slightly improved symptoms.

I am not sure if Saccharomyces boulardii works for the kidneys though. From what I read, there is no IgA secreted in the kidneys (although you can observe some IgA infiltration into the kidneys).

So it may be interesting to read a bit about mucosal immunity, and seeing if there are any drugs or supplements available which might boost it, especially in the kidneys.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

From what I read, there is no IgA secreted in the kidneys (although you can observe some IgA infiltration into the kidneys).

Er, and how does the immune system then cope with bacterial infections down there?

 

[Hip]

Er, and how does the immune system then cope with bacterial infections down there?

That's a whole area of biology I want to start reading about, but there are not enough hours in the day! But that's on my list of things to do.

 

[Hip]

Another interesting connection that someone on the discord server just brought up is the possible link between MARCoNS and the CBIS theory of ME/CFS.

MARCoNS = multiple antibiotic-resistant coagulation-negative Staphylococcus aureus.


In his research into mold-induced illness (which overlaps with ME/CFS), Dr Ritchie Shoemaker found that MARCoNS infecting the nose and sinuses can prevent recovery. So he prescribes a BEG nasal spray, to kill the MARCoNS.

Although there are many Shoemaker-trained doctors, Shoemaker's work on mold-induced illness (an illness he calls chronic inflammatory response syndrome, or CIRS), has not been replicated by independent researchers. So unfortunately again we are entering into un-replicated territory with Ritchie Shoemaker's research.

Nevertheless, it's interesting that Shoemaker also observes or believes that a chronic bacteria infection on the mucous membranes may be a maintaining factor for illness. So there are parallels to the Markov theory.

And we also see parallels with Prof Gottfries Staphylococcus vaccine treatment of ME/CFS.


It's these connections to other not so dissimilar treatments of ME/CFS and mold illness that for me adds some dimension to the Markov theory.

 

[Abha]

MARCoNS = multiple antibiotic-resistant coagulation-negative Staphylococcus aureus.


In his research into mold-induced illness (which overlaps with ME/CFS), Dr Ritchie Shoemaker found that MARCoNS infecting the nose and sinuses can prevent recovery. So he prescribes a BEG nasal spray, to kill the MARCoNS.

@Hip
Have you(or anyone) personally used this BEG nasal spray?If so did it give any relief....and where did you get it from?
I'm enjoying this thread and for some(many?) of us this Dr Markov's protocol may ease our suffering/pain if not cure us..

 

[Hip]

Have you(or anyone) personally used this BEG nasal spray?If so did it give any relief....and where did you get it from?

The BEG nasal spray is a prescription item in the US, but because I have no prescription, I made my own spray quite cheaply and easily, and used that. See this thread.

I started getting quite a strong Herx effect from my nasal spray, so I stopped using it. But that Herx may well be an indication that I do have a nasal dysbiosis/infection issue.

So now in the light of Dr Markov's findings of issues with mucosal immunity in ME/CFS, and bacterial dysbiosis at the mucous membranes, I am restarting my nasal spray protocol.


Both Dr Ritchie Shoemaker and Dr Joseph brewer developed very similar nasal sprays. Both their sprays contain disodium EDTA as the biofilm disruptor (as does my own home made spray).

The only difference between these two sprays is that Shoemaker is targeting a Staphylococcus infection in the nose, so uses some antibiotics in his nasal spray, whereas Brewer believes there may be a mold infection in the nose in ME/CFS patients, so uses antifungals in his spray.

But even without these antibiotics/antifungals, the EDTA biofilm disruptor will provide an antimicrobial effect.


Woodland Hills Pharmacy sells both the Shoemaker BEG nasal spray and the Brewer antifungal nasal spray.

 

[seamyb]

The BEG nasal spray is a prescription item in the US, but because I have no prescription, I made my own spray quite cheaply and easily, and used that. See this thread.

I started getting quite a strong Herx effect from my nasal spray, so I stopped using it. But that Herx may well be an indication that I do have a nasal dysbiosis/infection issue.

So now in the light of Dr Markov's findings of issues with mucosal immunity in ME/CFS, and bacterial dysbiosis at the mucous membranes, I am restarting my nasal spray protocol.


Both Dr Ritchie Shoemaker and Dr Joseph brewer developed very similar nasal sprays. Both their sprays contain disodium EDTA as the biofilm disruptor (as does my own home made spray).

The only difference between these two sprays is that Shoemaker is targeting a Staphylococcus infection in the nose, so uses some antibiotics in his nasal spray, whereas Brewer believes there may be a mold infection in the nose in ME/CFS patients, so uses antifungals in his spray.

But even without these antibiotics/antifungals, the EDTA biofilm disruptor will provide an antimicrobial effect.


Woodland Hills Pharmacy sells both the Shoemaker BEG nasal spray and the Brewer antifungal nasal spray.

Do let us know when you resume this and how it goes.

I've gone down a different path but may well be following your footsteps if nothing happens. I got some cumin essential oil and am taking big huffs of the vapour up my nose (cumin essential oil has been shown to be antibiotic and antifungal, so maybe the vapour in contact with the sinuses will have some effect). I only got it this morning so I'll definitely report when something or nothing happens. Even if I get the positive effects on fatigue cumin has given me (presumably through either being antioxidant or cytokine inhibiting) from the vapour it will be a successful experiment.

Just on your EDTA spray - what do you do about any additives? For example, the EDTA I can source on Amazon has magnesium stearate, which from other experiments I've done tends not to dissolve. Have you sourced a pure-ish EDTA powder or have you had any issues with undissolved gloop?

 

[Hip]

@seamyb I will answer your question on the nasal spray thread.

 

[sometexan84]

So if weak mucosal immunity is the cause of the kidney bacterial dysbiosis that Dr Markov says causes ME/CFS, is there anything we can do that might ramp up mucosal immunity?

I was under the impression an infection is perpetuated by dysbiosis.

And then the established infection in mucosa (aka epithelium, aka mucosal barriers) contributes to further dysbiosis.

And the dysbiosis, in turn, can enhance and stabilize the infection (e.g. altering IFN signaling).

Kind of a chicken or the egg thing. This is a good article from 2016. It's mostly talking about the gut microbiome and enteric viruses in GI tract, but it's very possible it parallels to kidney dysbiosis and kidney epithelial barrier infections too. It also shows antibiotics given to mice, depleting their commensal bacteria, resulted in attenuation of virus.

The influence of commensal bacteria on infection with enteric viruses

"Although the influence of commensal bacteria on infection with enteric viruses was largely unexplored until recent years, it is rapidly becoming clear that the intestinal microbiota has a profound effect on the overall outcome of virus infections at this mucosal site"​

​

​

Speaking to the treatment part of your comment... this 2020 article sort of reiterates the mice treatment from above article..

Enhancing mucosal immunity by transient microbiota depletion

 

[Marylib]

Look at their webpage... you can pay via Western Union and so on

Western Union is an established international payment option so why is this different from OMF requesting doantions or this forum?