Dr Igor Markov Says ME/CFS Is Caused by a Bacterial Dysbiosis in the Kidneys, and Says Autovaccine Therapy Cures 93% of ME/CFS Cases

[Alvin2]

If dysbiosis was the same as an infection nobody would have gut dysbiosis, because they'd have all been cured by antibiotics. Which is patently not true, we know antibiotics can aggravate gut dysbiosis.

For the purposes of this issue if the bacteria supposedly in the kidneys are causing ME/CFS we can identify then treat them.

My problem with it is it's all unproven - without a biopsy we don't KNOW there is kidney dysbiosis, do we? Unless I'm much mistaken it's just guesswork based on bacteria being present in the urine? That doesn't seem enough to go on to base a whole theory of CBIS as the cause of ME/CFS.

His theory is that its in the urine so he uses obsolete treatments to eliminate them.
If its in the urine we can find them by contracting a lab to do an analysis.

Of course if autovaccines work then it doesn't matter what's causing it. And that's the part of the Markov theory I'm drawn to more, because we know autovaccines are used successfully in animals

Ketamine is used successfully in animals, and even works in humans. Doesn't mean it will cure ME/CFS.
Though some even on this forum have/want to try it.

What we need are some accounts of it having done so, beyond Markov's claims.

His claims are based on his one treatment fixes everything ideology.
We get the same crap from people peddling stem cells, homeopathy, acupuncture and more.

 

[Daffodil]

@Hip thank you. looks like i forgot the first summary right after i read it, lol

 

[Reading_Steiner]

From the Q&A thread. " in 1999 Markov conclusively proved that the titers of IgG antibodies at chronic viral infections, including at chronic persistence of EBV, regardless of the degree of their increase, do not confirm the activity of EBV and its etiological role in the emergence of CFS. "

This sounds familiar for some reason, I feel as though I saw the name Markov associated with EBV somewhere, am I going mad ?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Well now you're just being dense for the sake of it. Ketamine has literally nothing to do with this discussion.

Ketamine is in the Goldstein IV protocol for ME. It's dopaminergic and helps many. But doesn't cure the disease.

@andyguitar that's interesting by itself (even if they seem to focus more on an inflammation) and bc Neil and Chris are co-authors of this study. So it would be very interesting to know what Chris thinks of Markov's theory bc what I think is that he doesn't investigate kidney issues (anymore).

 

[hb8847]

For the purposes of this issue if the bacteria supposedly in the kidneys are causing ME/CFS we can identify then treat them.

Cool, treat them how?

His theory is that its in the urine so he uses obsolete treatments to eliminate them.
If its in the urine we can find them by contracting a lab to do an analysis.

No, his theory is that it's an illness which antibiotics don't fix, so he uses another treatment which targets bacteria and which has been proven to be effective in animals.

Ketamine is used successfully in animals, and even works in humans. Doesn't mean it will cure ME/CFS.
Though some even on this forum have/want to try it.

So, because ketamine doesn't cure ME/CFS that's somehow evidence that autovaccines won't either?

His claims are based on his one treatment fixes everything ideology.
We get the same crap from people peddling stem cells, homeopathy, acupuncture and more.

I'm not sure how this compares to homeopathy and acupuncture. Yes it's new, but whatever ends up fixing ME/CFS will be a new treatment or otherwise none of us would be here looking for a cure, we'd have already found it. Unless you've already given up looking for one, in which case I'm not sure why you're here.

And I'm not against criticising Markov's theory or his treatment, I have problems with it too. I just think it's worth properly investigating first and then dismissing it if the evidence doesn't hold up.

 

[Hip]

For the purposes of this issue if the bacteria supposedly in the kidneys are causing ME/CFS we can identify then treat them.

If you are suggesting that antibiotics can treat dysbiosis-type bacterial conditions, we know that is often not the case. It is well-known that in SIBO, which is a bacterial dysbiosis in the small intestine, antibiotics may temporarily reduce symptoms, but the dysbiosis often returns after some months. Ask anyone on this forum with SIBO if antibiotics made any longterm improvements. Antibiotics are more likely to cause a dysbiosis that to cure dysbiosis.

 

[Alvin2]

Cool, treat them how?

One step at a time, determine if there is anything to be treated.
It should not be difficult as urine on growth medium is simple for any lab that does cultures.

No, his theory is that it's an illness which antibiotics don't fix, so he uses another treatment which targets bacteria and which has been proven to be effective in animals.

We don't know if he has even tried one.
But if there is nothing there then antibiotics certainly won't fix it

I'm not sure how this compares to homeopathy and acupuncture. Yes it's new, but whatever ends up fixing ME/CFS will be a new treatment or otherwise none of us would be here looking for a cure, we'd have already found it. Unless you've already given up looking for one, in which case I'm not sure why you're here.

He shows up with a miraculous treatment based on nothing but his using one treatment for just about any condition and makes grandiose claims while presenting no evidence, just his claims that he has them.

 

[Alvin2]

If you are suggesting that antibiotics can treat dysbiosis-type bacterial conditions, we know that is often not the case. It is well known that in SIBO, which is a bacterial dysbiosis in the small intestine, antibiotics may temporarily reduce symptoms, but the dysbiosis often returns after some months. Ask anyone on this forum with SIBO if antibiotics made any longterm improvements. Antibiotics are more likely to cause a dysbiosis that to cure dysbiosis.

We are talking kidneys and not gut where bacteria are intentionally cultivated to digest food.
That said if he is onto something the bacteria he is autovaccining for should be detectable by a legitimate lab test by culturing them as he does.

 

[Hip]

We are talking kidneys and not gut where bacteria are intentionally cultivated to digest food.

Bacteria are not cultivated in the small intestine for food digestion, they are only cultivated in the colon.

The small intestine in healthy people is close to sterile (normally only very low levels of bacteria are present in the small intestine). SIBO occurs when there is a dysbiotic overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, so you get much more bacteria in the small intestine than there should be.

Dr Markov believes a similar thing can occur in the kidneys: the nephrodysbacteriosis he describes is like a sort of SIBO of the kidneys.

 

[Alvin2]

Bacteria are not cultivated in the small intestine for food digestion, they are only cultivated in the colon.

The small intestine in healthy people is close to sterile (normally only very low levels of bacteria are present in the small intestine). SIBO occurs when there is a dysbiotic overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, so you get much more bacteria in the small intestine than there should be.

Dr Markov believes a similar thing can occur in the kidneys: the nephrodysbacteriosis he describes is like a sort SIBO of the kidneys.

If bacteria are in the wrong part of the digestive tract that is not good (much like the bacteria that cause ulcers in the stomach where we don't want them), but that does not lend credence to this theory.
That said i would be happy to be proven wrong by someone testing the urine of ME/CFS patients for bacteria that causes ME/CFS. Having a disease etiology would open many doors for us.

 

[kangaSue]

SIBO occurs when there is a dysbiotic overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine, so you get much more bacteria in the small intestine than there should be.

I'm not so sure that this is actually the case. One study found no difference between IBS patients and healthy controls from analysing mucosa specimens from the proximal jejunum, and a clinical trial found that SIBO could be treated with FMT (fecal microbiota transplant) using capsules in a 'top down' approach which in effect is putting a significantly greater amount of bacteria (from the colon) into the small bowel than normally would be there.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08508
https://bmcgastroenterol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12876-021-01630-x

 

[andyguitar]

@andyguitar that's interesting by itself (even if they seem to focus more on an inflammation)

Yes it is about inflammation but it raises the question of what is causing it.

 

[Daffodil]

From the Q&A thread. " in 1999 Markov conclusively proved that the titers of IgG antibodies at chronic viral infections, including at chronic persistence of EBV, regardless of the degree of their increase, do not confirm the activity of EBV and its etiological role in the emergence of CFS. "

This sounds familiar for some reason, I feel as though I saw the name Markov associated with EBV somewhere, am I going mad ?

there is the german theory that has been floating around for quite some time, that the EBV is latent but still pumping out some kind of latent protein, causing inflammation

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

there is the german theory that has been floating around for quite some time, that the EBV is latent but still pumping out some kind of latent protein, causing inflammation

If it's the same theory I heard of then: Not latent. An abortive infection.

 

[Hip]

One study found no difference between IBS patients and healthy controls from analysing mucosa specimens from the proximal jejunum

I had a quick glance at that study: I may be wrong, but I think the genetic sequencing methods it used are only able to detect the relative abundance of different bacterial species, rather than their absolute levels. So I am not sure if it would be able to detect an overgrowth of bacteria (SIBO = small intestinal bacterial overgrowth).

Also, although SIBO can often create IBS-like symptoms, SIBO and IBS are different conditions, and this study was looking at IBS patients. So I am not sure if that cohort would include actual SIBO patients.

a clinical trial found that SIBO could be treated with FMT (fecal microbiota transplant) using capsules in a 'top down' approach which in effect is putting a significantly greater amount of bacteria (from the colon) into the small bowel than normally would be there.

To me that makes sense from the perspective of addressing a dysbiosis.

The FMT would just provide a transient increase in bacterial levels in the small intestine, just like taking probiotic capsules. But some of the bacteria in the FMT may settle and establish themselves in the small bowel, thus changing the balance of bacteria there, which could lead to a correction of the dysbiosis.

But generally fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) is touch and go, with variable results, because for one thing it depends on the quality of the stool sample (some stool donors are classed as super-donors: the bacterial and phage composition of their stool seems to work better to treat diseases than other donors). Also, the benefits of FMT can often be temporary: they may fix the dysbiosis for a while, but the dysbiosis usually slowly returns.

When KDM experimented with FMT to treat ME/CFS, he found it did provide improvements in symptoms, but patients returned to baseline after a few months.

 

[perrier]

Ketamine is in the Goldstein IV protocol for ME. It's dopaminergic and helps many. But doesn't cure the disease.

@andyguitar that's interesting by itself (even if they seem to focus more on an inflammation) and bc Neil and Chris are co-authors of this study. So it would be very interesting to know what Chris thinks of Markov's theory bc what I think is that he doesn't investigate kidney issues (anymore).

Yes, Martin. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Does anyone here have contacts with Armstrong.

 

[Daffodil]

I had a quick glance at that study: I may be wrong, but I think the genetic sequencing methods it used are only able to detect the relative abundance of different bacterial species, rather than their absolute levels. So I am not sure if it would be able to detect an overgrowth of bacteria (SIBO = small intestinal bacterial overgrowth).

Also, although SIBO can often create IBS-like symptoms, SIBO and IBS are different conditions, and this study was looking at IBS patients. So I am not sure if that cohort would include actual SIBO patients.





To me that makes sense from the perspective of addressing a dysbiosis.

The FMT would just provide a transient increase in bacterial levels in the small intestine, just like taking probiotic capsules. But some of the bacteria in the FMT may settle and establish themselves in the small bowel, thus changing the balance of bacteria there, which could lead to a correction of the dysbiosis.

But generally fecal microbiota transplantation (FMT) is touch and go, with variable results, because for one thing it depends on the quality of the stool sample (some stool donors are classed as super-donors: the bacterial and phage composition of their stool seems to work better to treat diseases than other donors). Also, the benefits of FMT can often be temporary: they may fix the dysbiosis for a while, but the dysbiosis usually slowly returns.

When KDM experimented with FMT to treat ME/CFS, he found it did provide improvements in symptoms, but patients returned to baseline after a few months.

this is the reason i didnt do it years ago. what kdm said. but since then, i have heard several stories of remission. according to the Dove Clinic, they say some respond within days, some within months and some in years.

i wish we could get duodenal resurfacing. maybe this would change the game. totally "gut" the mucosa, get rid of all biofilm, then go in with new poop

 

[Learner1]

Yes, Martin. I was thinking exactly the same thing. Does anyone here have contacts with Armstrong.

Neil M is the corresponding author on Chris' latest paper - you could write to him.

@Hipsman Are you cured yet? what's your current thought on the effectiveness of Markov's methodology for testing and treatment? Should we start flying halfway around the world to try it yet?

 

[bensmith]

@Learner1 he had mild improvements, then to base. Said that doctor said to expect that, should get more of a similar pattern in the future(if it works ) Hopefully with increased improvements.

 

[Learner1]

@Learner1 he had mild improvements, then to base. Said that doctor said to expect that, should get more of a similar pattern in the future(if it works ) Hopefully with increased improvements.

Thanks. Can you clarify "then to base"?