Dr Igor Markov Says ME/CFS Is Caused by a Bacterial Dysbiosis in the Kidneys, and Says Autovaccine Therapy Cures 93% of ME/CFS Cases

[markiz2001]

So.. is there any doctor/researcher out there that is going to give this a try?

Markov says he wants to teach doctors how to do this and open franchises all over the world. Maybe someone should take him up on it. Goto ukraine, learn how it's done, look through the records.. and if it looks like there might be some legitimacy, go back to America and try it.

Or do we have to wait for the main MECFS organizations to take notice and "do something "? I dont think they will cuz there are so many red flags and this looks like a scam. Sure, it might cure alot of people with infections, but what about MECFS? We just have his claim.

 

[hb8847]

@markiz2001 I think the first port of call is more evidence it actually works. Currently we just have Markov's word that he's cured thousands - we have no confirmation of this from a single patient, not one.

I feel the only way of this actually getting anywhere is some more proof, either by PR members en masse taking the risk of flying to Ukraine and undergoing treatment (and even that would take ages and a large sample size for any UK or US doctor to start taking it seriously), or by some accounts of patients based in Ukraine who have recovered. The fact Markov is unable to provide a single reference to date is a huge red flag in my view.

 

[Daffodil]

thanks a lot @hb8847

if there is someone who speaks the language, surely there must be a urkainian message board for me/cfs? i have certainly heard from several patients on FB who say they have recovered with FMT so I am more likely, as you say, to lean towards the gut theory. diet has been known to ameliorate autoimmune disease for decades....though I suppose it could also affect the kidney microbiome.

does markov make any claims re: this causing other autoimmune conditions?

 

[Alvin2]

@markiz2001 I think the first port of call is more evidence it actually works. Currently we just have Markov's word that he's cured thousands - we have no confirmation of this from a single patient, not one.

I feel the only way of this actually getting anywhere is some more proof, either by PR members en masse taking the risk of flying to Ukraine and undergoing treatment (and even that would take ages and a large sample size for any UK or US doctor to start taking it seriously), or by some accounts of patients based in Ukraine who have recovered. The fact Markov is unable to provide a single reference to date is a huge red flag in my view.

No need for anyone to go to the Ukraine, its a simplistic concept, a scientist who identifies bacteria species from a first world country who is interested can culture some urine, see if they get bacteria and identify it. And do it correctly to ensure they didn't culture something form the ambient air and in fact is from the patient.

I would not be surprised if there are labs that can be contracted to do this, its low tech medical science.

 

[Perfson]

if there is someone who speaks the language, surely there must be a urkainian message board for me/cfs?

Well, i know 2 russian forums. People from Ukraine tend to use russian sites, they prefer even russian social network over ukrainian. So my guess that there's no ukrainian forum, or that forum is simply for both Ukraine+Russia.
One is https://forums.epstein-barr-virus.ru/
They talk about many other diseases and mostly herpes related ones.

2nd one is https://vmed.club/forum/forums/ and is the one i really dislike. People think there that me/cfs/fibro is systemic candida or even systemic malassezia restricta. Also they think that SIBO can be huge problem, which I cant yet disagree with. And as far as i know, they still didn't find cure, they used even crazy combinations of antifungal drugs. Main admin is laughing at Ron Davis research and simply dont believe it by a bit.

And i literally ctrl+f (searched) Марков in their chat, and they only talked about him a little as he may help with me/cfs, but looks like nobody tried his treatment.

 

[Hipsman]

Also, consider this: there is no reviews of me/cfs patients trying his treatment, but this means that there is also no negative reviews from me/cfs patients, most likely if someone with me/cfs was really disappointed with his treatment, they would write about it to inform others.

 

[perrier]

Also, consider this: there is no reviews of me/cfs patients trying his treatment, but this means that there is also no negative reviews from me/cfs patients, most likely if someone with me/cfs was really disappointed with his treatment, they would write about it to inform others.

Dear Hipsman, we are reading your reports very carefully and hoping for the best outcome for you.

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

No need for anyone to go to the Ukraine, its a simplistic concept, a scientist who identifies bacteria species from a first world country who is interested can culture some urine, see if they get bacteria and identify it. And do it correctly to ensure they didn't culture something form the ambient air and in fact is from the patient.

I would not be surprised if there are labs that can be contracted to do this, its low tech medical science.

That's what the lab doc told me!

 

[Alvin2]

That's what the lab doc told me!

Glad to know Alvin2 is as smart as a doctor!

Did they recommend a lab to run this and how much it would cost?

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

Glad to know Alvin2 is as smart as a doctor!

Did they recommend a lab to run this and how much it would cost?

Can be done by any lab. But they don't offer auto vaccines. But many naturopaths and alternative docs in Germany do. Can't be too difficult.

@Perfson interesting communities there. Could help but nobody tried, laughing at Ron's work. I wish this East/West bullshit thinking could finally stop and we all work together as one world. Not only regarding this illness.

 

[Alvin2]

Can be done by any lab. But they don't offer auto vaccines. But many naturopaths and alternative docs in Germany do. Can't be too difficult.

I don't care about autovaccines, but if a patient has an infection it can be treated.

@Perfson interesting communities there. Could help but nobody tried, laughing at Ron's work. I wish this East/West bullshit thinking could finally stop and we all work together as one world. Not only regarding this illness.

I don't care about east/west thinking, i care about science. If this dude is onto something then thats great, but he makes grandiose claims backed up by nothing. But a stopped clock is right twice a day so if everyone has somehow missed kidney infections then we can find them (easily).

 

[Martin aka paused||M.E.]

But a stopped clock is right twice a day so if everyone has somehow missed kidney infections then we can find them (easily).

Dysbiosis, not infection. That's the part I didn't understand. From my personal and untrained understanding: They found S. aureus in the urine. What does that mean? A very high amount of a.aureus? For diagnosing a dysbiosis they had to do a sequencing PCR of all bacteria in the kidney to say if one buck is relatively high or not. Otherwise he's speaking of a bacteria that should not be there. But then this is like c.diff. in the gut (without inflammation, I know that's not possible just as an example) and then we are talking about a pathogen and an infection. I don't want to say that he tells stories but that I personally don't get it.

 

[Alvin2]

Dysbiosis, not infection. That's the part I didn't understand. From my personal and untrained understanding: They found A. aureus in the urine. What does that mean? A very high amount of a.aureus? For diagnosing a dysbiosis they had to do a sequencing PCR of all bacteria in the kidney to say if one buck is relatively high or not. Otherwise he's speaking of a bacteria that should not be there. But then this is like c.diff. in the gut (without inflammation, I know that's not possible just as an example) and then we are talking about a pathogen and an infection.

Six of one and a half dozen of another.

I don't want to say that he tells stories but that I personally don't get it.

There is little to get, when one is a hammer everything is a nail, this is his blanket treatment for many disparate conditions.

 

[andyguitar]

but if a patient has an infection it can be treated.

Not all infections respond to antibiotic drugs.

 

[Alvin2]

Not all infections respond to antibiotic drugs.

Especially if they are not there.
Confirmation is a relatively simple matter, if it doesn't respond to the treatment then at least we know the cause and can go from there.

 

[hb8847]

Six of one and a half dozen of another.

There is little to get, when one is a hammer everything is a nail, this is his blanket treatment for many disparate conditions.

If dysbiosis was the same as an infection nobody would have gut dysbiosis, because they'd have all been cured by antibiotics. Which is patently not true, we know antibiotics can aggravate gut dysbiosis.

As for kidney dysbiosis, I dont see why it wouldn't cause a health issue; we know it exists, and we know the kidneys process an inordinate amount of blood. That's not my problem with this theory.

My problem with it is it's all unproven - without a biopsy we don't KNOW there is kidney dysbiosis, do we? Unless I'm much mistaken it's just guesswork based on bacteria being present in the urine? That doesn't seem enough to go on to base a whole theory of CBIS as the cause of ME/CFS.

Of course if autovaccines work then it doesn't matter what's causing it. And that's the part of the Markov theory I'm drawn to more, because we know autovaccines are used successfully in animals, and it's highly suspected that bacterial dysbiosis plays a significant causal role in ME/CFS. It makes sense that endotoxins of offending bacteria would make their way to the urine, and so it makes sense to me why autovaccines built from those endotoxins might work, regardless of whether the dysbiosis exists in the kidneys or elsewhere.

What we need are some accounts of it having done so, beyond Markov's claims.

 

[andyguitar]

without a biopsy we don't KNOW there is kidney dysbiosis, do we?

But this research suggests kidney problems are there in me/cfs.

 

[Hip]

i understand the disease symptoms are caused by chronic smouldering bacterial infection. i agree with that. but why does this doctor think it is in the kidneys?

Dr Igor Markov believes that bacteria in the kidneys have far more opportunity to leak toxins into the bloodstream than do bacteria in the intestines. He says this is because the kidneys process 2000 liters of blood per day. My understanding is that this high flow of blood can wash out bacterial toxins from the kidneys into the blood.

Also as @hb8847 mentioned above, the blood supply that passes through the intestines is filtered by the liver, which removes up to 99% of any LPS bacterial toxin may be leaking into the blood from the intestines. So most of the LPS (and probably other bacterial toxins) leaking out the gut are moped up.


However, although autovaccines will stimulate the immune system to fight the bacteria found in the kidney, they will also cause the immune system to fight these same bacteria if they are located elsewhere in the body.

Dr Markov says that some bacteria which infect the kidneys originate in the nasopharynx, and other bacteria which make their way into the kidneys originate in the gut. So with autovaccines, you may also get a response to bacteria in living the gut or nasopharynx. Though Dr Markov believes that its bacteria in the kidneys which are the main source of bacterial toxins.

 

[Mary]

The reason for this thread is just to place the info into one article, so that people can get a rapid overview of the CBIS theory of ME/CFS. People seemed to be asking the same questions to Dr Markov that he'd already answered, so there was a need for a reasonably concise summary.

@Hip , this is a great summary, thank you so much! I don't think I would have expended the time/energy needed to try to sort out what Markov was saying. I found this very readable and understandable and now am much more interested in what Markov is doing!

(I think there must be a time/energy continuum much like space/time? There's got to be an equation - activity/energy x time = __________? All I know is the more time I have to spend on something, the more energy it takes, and this summary was a great time/energy saver for me!)

 

[perrier]

But this research suggests kidney problems are there in me/cfs.

Andyguitar, thank you for finding this. The kidneys are not often referred to in the various studies. If anyone knows more about this area, please post. Thanks in advance.