Coronavirus: what your country is doing, how you feel & general discussion

[Inara]

I saw an interview with Prof Streeck yesterday. Very good research being done in Germany.

I don't agree to be honest re Streeck. He and his team did a study in Heinsberg. I haven't seen the study - in fact, there doesn't exist a manuscript so nobody can see what was done and if it was done correctly. Already two points seem critical to me: They didn't count households but individuals infected with SARS-Cov-2 (so if there are 5 people in a household they counted 5 and not 1), and it seems they used ELISA. Other virologists say this test is not suited to differentiate between SARS-Cov-2 and other coronaviruses (that typically circulate); Streeck claims the manufacturer says it's 99% reliable - that's not a proof for the reliability of the test. But most of all, there should some form of a publication. Everybody is doing non-peer-reviewed publication right now, but at least there is a publication! Talking in front of the media and presenting results as "scientific facts" without proper scientific processes is simply unscientific. What's worse - people, especially some politicians, want to hear it's ok to end the lockdown, and if there comes a "scientiest" claiming he has proof that it's ok, that will create bad blood. And it already does. I think Streeck played that card knowingly. He enjoys being in the spotlight, in my opinion.

I'm really unhappy about Streeck's role in Germany and wish we had more voices of Drosten's caliber (who, in my view, proved to be able to work scientifically, e.g. via peer-reviewed publication; I am aware of the drawbacks of peer-reviewed papers, but it's most often still better than non-peer-reviewed, and definitely better than no publication).

 

[Inara]

we have overcrowded jails as it is, let alone jailing people for quarantine. It was only a crime for a few days and you get charged without being arrested, as with most stuff here.

In Germany, by law you can be forced into psychiatric hospitalizaion if not keeping in quarantine. Already politicians stressed this possibility in the media.

Some weeks ago, in a TV show, a psychiatrist laughingly mentioned this possibility, to which a politician replied "We're still a democracy, not a dictatorship". What does this say? This law DOES exist! And voices cry after its application. So is Germany a dictatorship?

 

[Wayne]

The following was quoted on Meet the Press today by Chuck Todd:

from Dr James V. Lawler on March 12 sums it up

“we are making every misstep leaders initially made in the table-tops at the outset of pandemic planning in 2006. We had addressed all of these and had a plan that would work — and has worked in Hong Kong/SIngapore. We have thrown 15 years of institutional learning out the window and are making decisions based on intuition.” ​

 

[pamojja]

We have thrown 15 years of institutional learning out the window and are making decisions based on intuition.”

Also here a very thorough analysis of a doc with the swiss perspective, in particular governments failure up to now too. Use https://www.deepl.com/translator for precise translation from German to English:

COVID-19 - a mid-term review or analysis of morale, medical facts, and current and future policy decisions

7. What do we know? What don't we know?

We know,
that this is an aggressive virus:

1. that the mean incubation period is 5 days; the maximum incubation period is not yet clear;
2. that asymptomatic COVID-19 carriers can infect other people and that this virus is "extremely contagious" and "extremely resistant" (A. Lanzavecchia);
3. we know the populations at risk;
4. that in the last 17 years it has not been possible to develop either a vaccination or a monoclonal antibody against corona viruses;
5. that it has never been possible to develop a vaccine against any corona virus;
6. that even the so-called "flu vaccination", contrary to common advertising, shows only a minimal effect.

What we do not know:

1. is whether or not there is immunity after infection. Certain data indicate that humans can develop G-class immunoglobulins from the 15th day onwards, which should prevent a renewed infection with the same virus. But it has not yet been definitively proven;
2. how long any immunity could protect;
3. whether this COVID-19 virus remains stable, or whether in autumn, analogous to the usual wave of influenza, a slightly modified COVID-19 will again spread all over the world, against which there is no immunity;
4. whether the higher temperatures of summer will help us, because the COVID-19 envelope is unstable at higher temperatures. It must be mentioned here that the MERS virus had spread in the Middle East in the months of May to July, when temperatures were higher than they ever are here;
5. how long it takes for a population to become so infested that the R-value is <1: If you test 1 million people in Zurich at any given time, 12% to 18% of COVID-19 are currently reported to be positive. In order for the pandemic to lose its pandemic character, the R-value must be <1, i.e. about 66% of the population must have had contact with the virus and developed immunity. Nobody knows how long, how many months it will take until the infection, which is currently expected to be 12% to 18%, reaches 66%! But it can be assumed that the spread of the virus from 12% to 18% to 66% of the population will continue to generate seriously ill patients.
6. So we don't know how long we will be dealing with this virus. Two reports, which should not be available to the public (U.S.- Government COVID Response Plan and a report from Imperial College London) come independently of each other to a "lock-down" phase of up to 18 months;
7. and we do not know whether this virus will concern us epidemically/pandemically or perhaps even endemically;
8. we still do not have a recognised and widely applicable, defined therapy; we have never been able to present such a therapy for influenza. Perhaps the authorities and the media should put the facts on the table for once instead of presenting reports every two days of an apparently successful vaccination that is not far away.

 

[Wayne]

Just received the following NPR notice in an email...

A Forbes story has grabbed a lot of attention over the last 24 hours, and the headline (“What Do Countries With The Best Coronavirus Responses Have In Common? Women Leaders”) is clickbait gold. The piece has been read nearly 3 million times, and gives a nice roundup of how the female leaders of Iceland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Taiwan, Germany and New Zealand gave a master class in leadership during this pandemic.​

​

​

 

[Wayne]

I read a book many years ago entitled "On the Breath of the Gods". It was a remarkable book in which the author, Ariel Tomioka, writes about her experiences with two different spiritual masters, one of each gender. A primary objective of these masters was to give her insights into the masculine and feminine, and the need to have these two energies in balance. This applies not only to individuals, but to various religions, cultures, and even the entire planet.

One thing these masters emphasized that I still remember to this day, is that the mascuine energy(s) has been so predominant for so long, and the world has suffered greatly from this. His good news was that the world was on the cusp of the feminine energy(s) beginning to take its rightful place in the "energetics" of this planet. He said nothing is ever guaranteed, but he had a hard time imagining the world making it intact until 2100 if it didn't happen.

Ever since reading about this, I've been cheering women on in every way I can, and in whatever "arena" they may be operating in.

 

[Roy S]

Is there a better thread that this should also be posted on?

These are two new articles.

"What Doctors on the Front Lines Wish They’d Known a Month Ago"

"At Lincoln Hospital in the Bronx, Dr. Nicholas Caputo followed 50 patients who arrived with low oxygen levels between 69 and 85 percent (95 is normal). After five minutes of proning, they had improved to a mean of 94 percent. Over the next 24 hours, nearly three-quarters were able to avoid intubation; 13 needed ventilators. Proning does not seem to work as well in older patients, a number of doctors said.

No one knows yet if this will be a lasting remedy, Dr. Caputo said, but if he could go back to early March, he would advise himself and others: “Don’t jump to intubation.” "

“Intubated patients with Covid lung disease are doing very poorly, and while this may be the disease and not the mechanical ventilation, most of us believe that intubation is to be avoided until unequivocally required,” Dr. Strayer said."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/w...known-a-month-ago/ar-BB12B6Nw?ocid=spartanntp



"Doctors are finding that placing the sickest coronavirus patients on their stomachs -- called prone positioning - helps increase the amount of oxygen that's getting to their lungs.

"We're saving lives with this, one hundred percent," said Narasimhan, the regional director for critical care at Northwell Health, which owns 23 hospitals in New York. "It's such a simple thing to do, and we've seen remarkable improvement. We can see it for every single patient." "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/he...hs-can-save-lives/ar-BB12Bwc2?ocid=spartanntp

 

[hopeforaday22]

I'm really concerned about the implications this coronavirus could have for patients with CFS or ME. (And of course everyone else at risk)

Would we see a worsening of symptoms long-term? :/

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

State of emergency has been expanded to all of Japan.

My local grocery store has installed vinyl sheeting between cashiers and customers. There are yellow lines on the floor with circles every six feet instructing customers where to stand.

 

[Pearshaped]

Is somebody out there from Sweden??
Sweden has obviously a total different approach(no total lockdown).
And they seem to do great(no rising number of infections ,it seems)?

The gov of Switzerland has decided to keep things locked down until May.
Schools and probably everything else is planned to open in June.Many of us dont like the decision,since infection rate has dropped and we have plenty of hospital beds to spare.

 

[pattismith]

"Doctors are finding that placing the sickest coronavirus patients on their stomachs -- called prone positioning - helps increase the amount of oxygen that's getting to their lungs.

"We're saving lives with this, one hundred percent," said Narasimhan, the regional director for critical care at Northwell Health, which owns 23 hospitals in New York. "It's such a simple thing to do, and we've seen remarkable improvement. We can see it for every single patient." "

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/he...hs-can-save-lives/ar-BB12Bwc2?ocid=spartanntp

This is really interesting, Maybe proning would work for ME/CFS patients too? I use to sleep on my belly ntil my back pain didn't allow me any longer!

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Social distancing

 

[pamojja]

State of emergency has been expanded to all of Japan.

While the fast mojority of countries already saw a decline in daily deaths, Japan has for a long time been exceptionally long spared from a higher death-toll. And just yesterday saw an addtional very unusual increase. Do you have any idea what might have happened?

 

[andyguitar]

UK Gov are changing their approach to dealing with the virus. They are going for mass testing, contact tracing and self isolation of the infected. Could be described as an ambitious plan or total fantasy land. 10 million people (key workers) are now eligible for a test. How they are going to get all this done is beyond me. We had a bit of testing, contact tracing and self isolation early on when the number of cases was low. They gave up on it when the numbers got a lot bigger. Now when the numbers are vastly bigger they are giving it another go. Lockdown will continue for the time being.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

contact tracing

this gets mentioned more and more...in the U.S. at least, whom is it that would be: doing all this contact tracing?

Since we have little in the way of a public health system...who is going to do that legwork?

 

[andyguitar]

Since we have little in the way of a public health system...who is going to do that legwork?

Exactly. We do have a public health system but i cannot for the life of me see how this is going to be done. The numbers are to big now. You could get a neg test result for millions. But it wont tell you if they are going to get it next week. So what do you do? Test them every week? Even if you could do this for 10 million people what about the other 60 million in the UK. Its pie in the sky. Bonkers. There is no reliable antibody test yet. UK Gov bought 3.5 million antibody test kits from China only to find they didnt work.

 

[Rufous McKinney]

There is no reliable antibody test yet.

In the US there are numerous PCR tests and even more different types of antibody tests, being devised by multiple sources and lacking consistency, data on false negatives- unworkable!

Meanwhile- if government is supposed to somehow do contact tracing, somebody better start HIRING some qualified people or identifying existing staff who could- TAKE On such a massive challenge.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

While the fast mojority of countries already saw a decline in daily deaths, Japan has for a long time been exceptionally long spared from a higher death-toll. And just yesterday saw an addtional very unusual increase. Do you have any idea what might have happened?

We are coming into Golden Week, and since many are already out of work there are concerns that people are traveling from highly infected areas like Tokyo, to rural areas that have thus far been unaffected.

 

[IThinkImTurningJapanese]

Are you challenging my masculinity?

Osaka mayor under fire for saying women dawdle at shops

The mayor of Osaka has come under fire for suggesting men should do grocery shopping during the coronavirus outbreak because women are indecisive and "take a long time."
Japan is under a state of emergency over the pandemic, and residents in some areas have been asked to shop less frequently and only send one family member out to get supplies to limit contact.
Osaka Mayor Ichiro Matsui told reporters on Thursday that men should be entrusted with grocery runs because women "take a long time as they browse around and hesitate about this and that," Kyodo news agency reported.
"Men can snap up things they are told (to buy) and go, so I think it's good that they go shopping, avoiding human contact," the 56-year-old added.
When challenged by a reporter, he acknowledged his remarks might be viewed as out-of-touch, but said they were true in his family.

 

[nyanko_the_sane]

The ME association in the UK put together an informational document with Covid-19 guidance: https://www.meassociation.org.uk/wp...Covid-19-and-MECFS-Weekly-Update-24.04.20.pdf