Clonazepam (Klonopin) stops my symptoms almost completely

[frozenborderline]

@frozenborderline
Do you even read any of my posts? Cause, with all due respect and liking, you still don't seem to get it.

I did. And by the way, I didn't address most of my posts to youdirectly, but just replied to the thread generally, or to slam dancing, bc i was trying to avoid conflict
But since you are directly tagging me, I'll reply. I find the tone stressful and insulting. In this thread i don't believe I said any ad hominems, just talked about studies and ideas without talking about someone's intelligence
You are directly saying that I don't understand, bc you have a different position than me. This is why I didn't directly reply to your posts but just replied to the thread, I didn't want to argue or have someone insult my intelligence or reading comprehension

I know that half life is not the same as the time tbe drug is actually active, but a long half life often correlates with long lasting effects . It's way harder to find Info on what the window of it being active in your system is. Peak plasma isn't the marker of that. It just tells you when its most active.
Benzos, like many drugs, can be subtly active for a long period after the most obvious effects wear off. A single half life isn't what it takes for them to be out of your system. There will still be small amounts for longer than a single elimination half life

Everything I said above was phrased politely and sourced from a paper or fda page or something about benzos

By any metric, and I can't find info on the one that you say you want to use, clonazepam would be one of tbe longest acting benzos, second to diazepam

I'm happy to calmly discuss this but I think the way you phrased phrased to me is rude.
And additionally the onus is on the person who makes the claim, eg that clonazepam is short acting , to back it up. Not for other people to have to research it to find the exact metric you are talking about.

 

[frozenborderline]

o you know what any of that means? Cause I do. And it's not what you think.

I'm really done here, just too wring out to keep this up. I know from experience that you'll keep fighting your corner long after it's been rolled up and carted away

I know what a half life is. I know it's not the same as the time the drug is active. I didn't tag you or reply to you directly bc I didn't want to be insulted.

I just replied to the thread with info about clonazepam half life. And the info fits with my experience as doctors generally consider clonazepam to be one of the longer lasting benzos , or moderately long , not as much so as valium, but certainly longer than Ativan or Xanax.

 

[frozenborderline]

"Clonazepam’s effects last about 8 to 12 hours, so the clonazepam dosage for healthy adults is 2 to 3 times a day. It works quickly, usually within an hour, and reaches peak levels by about four hours. The clonazepam half-life is long at 30 to 40 hours. This means it can take several days to rid the body of it."

This is all I could find on half life versus activity of the drug . Fwiw its very hard to find info on how long jts actually active , so I would think it is good thing to be charitable about. Half life is the main thing every source has , from the fda to various studies on pubmed. It must be harder in some cases to measure how long th4 drug is active

Regardless , if a drug has a long half life , that means it takes awhile to get out of of system. What is it doing while it's in there? It may not be binding , especially as intensely, to neurotransmitter binding sites, after it goes to a lower level, but I think it has some effects for the most part, when it's still in the body. This is why doctors are so concerned about interactions with things like clonazepam or diazepam, the next day even... even if you don't feel the drug, enough of it could be in your system to interact with a sedative or other drug the next day...

 

[Replenished]

Trying benzos can be good bc you can get a sense sense what it is like to turn off some of the glutamate excitotoxicity that contributes contributes ME/CFS.

But that's only worth it at trying it once in awhile, in fact doing bigger doses once a month or something is better than doing smaller doses regularly. Regular usage even at every other day will eventually put you in a bad situation.

Even though I don't agree with everything Yipeeki YOW says on benzos, like we disagree with many of the details, I do agree that regular usage at that level is bad.

Opioids would genuinely be far less harmful, not that they would be harmless.

Daily ketamine usage, which can be prescribed and usedsafely, would be FAR less harmful. Doesn't almost ever cause physical dependence. Has similar pharmacological targets.

J wanted to respond to this earlier but just woke up and there's already so many comments you probably got your answer

There are other gabaergics or drugs targeting gaba and glutamate somehow you can try. I listed some of them in a previous post. Everything from memanrine and ketamine to imidazenil to progesterone. Do u have the saved post of me listing all those drugs?

Occasional use (not regular) of phenibut cause less cognitive issues and better effects than benzos anyway

I don't have the list saved but I will go find it, unless you have it handy.

I can't recall if it was you I responded to about Phenibut, saying that it also helped me but it destroyed my stomach and also made me feel strangely sleepy even once off it, so I stopped taking it.

 

[frozenborderline]

I don't have the list saved but I will go find it, unless you have it handy.

I can't recall if it was you I responded to about Phenibut, saying that it also helped me but it destroyed my stomach and also made me feel strangely sleepy even once off it, so I stopped taking it.

The phenibut free amino acid form, (faa) as opposed to phenibut hcl, should be way way easier on the stomach

Don't take it consecutive days ever and you should be fine. Two times a week with ohenibut is fine. Don't ever mix it with benzos

 

[Replenished]

The phenibut free amino acid form, (faa) as opposed to phenibut hcl, should be way way easier on the stomach

Don't take it consecutive days ever and you should be fine. Two times a week with ohenibut is fine. Don't ever mix it with benzos

Sorry I should have explained more clearly. Although the Phenibut helped with my main M.E. symptom which seems to be dehydration/depletion. It made me feel horrible mentally. It wasn't like a benzo/relaxing type effect for me at all.

 

[frozenborderline]

Sorry I should have explained more clearly. Although the Phenibut helped with my main M.E. symptom which seems to be dehydration/depletion. It made me feel horrible mentally. It wasn't like a benzo/relaxing type effect for me at all.

Got it. Maybe that's the combo of gaba b (benzod are more gaba a specific) agonist and gabapentinoid effects on ion channels directly, which differs subtly from benzos

 

[Replenished]

Just to add more proof of how clonazepam works for me. My main symptom is unbearable thirst, dehydration, frequent urination. I was having a rough day yesterday feeling unwell and very stressed due to some non health related personal issues. I reluctantly took a Clonazepam a couple of hours before going to bed as I could see where my stress was headed and another night of poor sleep was not going to do me any good. Anyway, I took the clonazepam and would you believe it, I had the first night in about 3 years where I didn't have to wake up to urinate. Usually i'm up around 4 times a night needing to wee.

The drug does seem to have a very strong effect on me, probably more than it should. One 0.5mg tablet see's me become quite floopy/heavy limbed, but at the same time it reduces all of my symptoms and can even lift my energy if its taken during the day.

Is there any type of doctor / M.E. specialist that could specifically explore this are of treatment / brain chemistry / nervous system? I definitely need to pursue this pathway but feel I don't have the energy or capacity to work out exactly what I need to do.

 

[frozenborderline]

Just to add more proof of how clonazepam works for me. My main symptom is unbearable thirst, dehydration, frequent urination. I was having a rough day yesterday feeling unwell and very stressed due to some non health related personal issues. I reluctantly took a Clonazepam a couple of hours before going to bed as I could see where my stress was headed and another night of poor sleep was not going to do me any good. Anyway, I took the clonazepam and would you believe it, I had the first night in about 3 years where I didn't have to wake up to urinate. Usually i'm up around 4 times a night needing to wee.

The drug does seem to have a very strong effect on me, probably more than it should. One 0.5mg tablet see's me become quite floopy/heavy limbed, but at the same time it reduces all of my symptoms and can even lift my energy if its taken during the day.

Is there any type of doctor / M.E. specialist that could specifically explore this are of treatment / brain chemistry / nervous system? I definitely need to pursue this pathway but feel I don't have the energy or capacity to work out exactly what I need to do.

youre just sort of describing the basic fact of glutamate being high/excitotoxicity in the brain. its not that complex but also its not something showing up in basic mris so you cant get tested for it easily but its likely thats whats going on. there are ME literate neurologists who may have ideas on what to try thats safer than clonazepam long term. clonazepam is quite dependence forming. there are gabapentinoids and ketamine and memantine and a buncha other things affecting that system in a way that is less dependence forming. so yeah...

you may be able to find a doctor to help with it but its not necessarily some specialized thing that theres a specialist for. @Hip has a good thread on nmda antagonists

 

[frozenborderline]

could also be mcas related. clonazepams been known to help that. are you sure you have no mold or other environmental exposures?

 

[Hip]

Just to add more proof of how clonazepam works for me. My main symptom is unbearable thirst, dehydration, frequent urination. I was having a rough day yesterday feeling unwell and very stressed due to some non health related personal issues. I reluctantly took a Clonazepam a couple of hours before going to bed as I could see where my stress was headed and another night of poor sleep was not going to do me any good. Anyway, I took the clonazepam and would you believe it, I had the first night in about 3 years where I didn't have to wake up to urinate. Usually i'm up around 4 times a night needing to wee.

Desmopressin is one to look into for frequent urination. Also the racetam-like nootropic supplement noopept can help.

 

[Replenished]

Desmopressin is one to look into for frequent urination. Also the racetam-like nootropic supplement noopept can help.

Thanks. I tried desmopressin on and off for about 3 years, it helped a little at first then seemed to gradually do less and less over time. Does nothing for me now.

I will look at Noopept though.

 

[Hip]

I will look at Noopept though.

Noopept is a peptide analog of the active fragment of the antidiuretic hormone vasopressin. I posted a few posts on it.

 

[Replenished]

Noopept is a peptide analog of the active fragment of the antidiuretic hormone vasopressin. I posted a few posts on it.

Thanks, i've been taking a look at them. The only issue is, it seems racetams are typically nervous system stimulants and the only drugs which I've found to help me are Clonazepam and phenibut which are precisely the opposite in that they are nervous system depressants.

 

[Hip]

. The only issue is, it seems racetams are typically nervous system stimulants

Racetams are not stimulants in the normal sense of that term. Racetams increase intelligence, memory and the ability to focus on a task, but without being stimulants. You don't feel hyped up on racetams; the increase in mental focus seems calm and effortless.

I don't get on with stimulants myself: they work for me, but the next day I feel a comedown, which leaves me feeling depleted mentally, and sometimes also depressed.

But I do not get this issue with racetams, such as piracetam, which I take sometimes to counter brain fog. (Some racetams are also stimulants as well, but I avoid these).

If I remember rightly, with noopept, it is advised to take breaks from this sometimes.

 

[Replenished]

youre just sort of describing the basic fact of glutamate being high/excitotoxicity in the brain. its not that complex but also its not something showing up in basic mris so you cant get tested for it easily but its likely thats whats going on. there are ME literate neurologists who may have ideas on what to try thats safer than clonazepam long term. clonazepam is quite dependence forming. there are gabapentinoids and ketamine and memantine and a buncha other things affecting that system in a way that is less dependence forming. so yeah...

you may be able to find a doctor to help with it but its not necessarily some specialized thing that theres a specialist for. @Hip has a good thread on nmda antagonists

I'm completely uneducated when it comes to this gaba / glutamate / excitotoxicity type of thing. But from just googling glutamate excititoxicity and the mention of loss of neural function and cell death, it all sounds rather dramatic and hopeless . Is that what you are saying you think might be occurring with me? and are you saying me taking Clonazepam, increasing Gaba, is temporarily reducing this glutamate issue and therefore my symptoms are reduced? Or have I got that completely the wrong way around?

As I say, i'm lost on this subject, it's new to me.

 

[Hip]

One thing you might like to look into, @Replenished, is N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG).

There are two ways to relax neurons: one is to increase GABA, and the other is to decrease glutamate.

Lots of glutamate is generated in the brain during brain inflammation, and so if you have an inflamed brain, your neurons may not be relaxed.

I experimented with many brain anti-inflammatory drugs and supplements in order to reduce glutamate, and got very good results from NAG. See my thread here:

Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

 

[frozenborderline]

I'm completely uneducated when it comes to this gaba / glutamate / excitotoxicity type of thing. But from just googling glutamate excititoxicity and the mention of loss of neural function and cell death, it all sounds rather dramatic and hopeless . Is that what you are saying you think might be occurring with me? and are you saying me taking Clonazepam, increasing Gaba, is temporarily reducing this glutamate issue and therefore my symptoms are reduced? Or have I got that completely the wrong way around?

There are levels to glutamate excitotoxicity I believe. It's sort of like oxidative stress but involving glutamate instead of free radicals.

Raising the Gaba to glutamate ratio with a gabaergic like clonazepam may help you yes but is bad long term ad the gaba receptors will unregulate and gain tolerance.

There are other things that address gaba and glutamate. I didn't mean to scare you. Many people in ME world think it's it's issue. Paul Cheney talked about it in a seminar . Jarred younger , I believe he's found evidence of higher brain glutamate

 

[frozenborderline]

and are you saying me taking Clonazepam, increasing Gaba, is temporarily reducing this glutamate issue and therefore my symptoms are reduced

Yeah that's basically it. But there may also be other mechanisms by which it's working. The urination thing sounds a bit different than typical glutamate symptoms. Who knows ...

 

[Replenished]

One thing you might like to look into, @Replenished, is N-acetyl glucosamine (NAG).

There are two ways to relax neurons: one is to increase GABA, and the other is to decrease glutamate.

Lots of glutamate is generated in the brain during brain inflammation, and so if you have an inflamed brain, your neurons may not be relaxed.

I experimented with many brain anti-inflammatory drugs and supplements in order to reduce glutamate, and got very good results from NAG. See my thread here:

Completely eliminated my severe anxiety symptoms with three supplements!

Thanks, very interesting and I really appreciate the advice. I will certainly give NAG a try.

I've just woken up and that's the second night in a row I've not had to wake up to urinate when typically I'm up 4+ times having to go. I would say I've also felt a little less dehydrated. That's now coming up for 48 hours since I took the Clonazepam, so it somehow has some lingering/long lasting effects for me. Would that be even more of an indication that it's a glutamate issue and it lowers the glutamate for a longer period then it's typical anti anxiety action? Or could it be that my nervous system which is perhaps overactive is calmed for some extended time after a Clonazepam dose? Is a dysfunctional nervous system separate from the glutamate issue? Could it be one and not the other?

Sorry for all of the questions. I'm just trying to work this out as it's the closest I've come to finding any relief from the symptoms.