Clonazepam (Klonopin) stops my symptoms almost completely

[frozenborderline]

Yes that's right, Dr Nitschke says 10 grams of pentobarbital (Nembutal) is a lethal dose. That corresponds to one hundred 100 mg pills.

I imagine that's an ld100, not an ld50, bc with euthanasia they like to be very sure about these things. I would bet that people have died from smaller doses of barbiturates. In the 60s it seems like many people died from them.
Contrast that to diazepam , which has an ld50 (not 100) of theoretically 80,000 mg, so 8000 10 mg pills, or 16000 5 mg pills . The difference between these lethal to therapeutic dose ratios is clearly pretty big even if that ld50 for diazepam is correct and if people can actually die from it (which still seems unclear as I haven't read any case studies on it . Perhaps if they already have severe hypotension or something...)

 

[Hip]

I imagine that's an ld100, not an ld50, bc with euthanasia they like to be very sure about these things.

Yes, I would think that 10 grams is for guaranteed dispatch to the next world!

 

[frozenborderline]

Yes, I would think that 10 grams is for guaranteed dispatch to the next world!

The ultimate trip !

 

[vision blue]

The fact that something can kill at high doses or abuse is no reason not to have it as a medicine. Even table salt can kill at high doses. . And the inability to kill if taken in excess is not a reason to favor a drug. So i guess im lost at the pheno vs valium death index conparison since if theyre going to be compared , shoukd be on some useful property.

Id guess accidental death from phenobarbital was from not following instructions such as mixing it with alcohol or other prohibited respiratory supresser

Bperhaps because i have mast cell issues, i gravitate towards the older pharma drugs. All of the first generation meds were much closer to original sources where original sourced often meant some naturally occuring chemical that were extracted. Second, third, forth generation meds are all increasingly artificial increasingly manipulated to produce very selective narrow actions not found in nature. Everyone applauds their selectivity but those manufactured non natural chemicals make my body go beserk.

The anti- emetic comment made me laugh because it gsve me first tine realization that even if i want euthanasia meds im going to need “natural” versions!

 

[Replenished]

Clonazepam has helped my nervous system too but can't be used regularly without tolerance. : ideas for alternatives: any safe nmda antagonist --ketamine, memantine, xenon (expensive but safe)... iv or injected magnesium (more mild but worth a try), progesterone (@Hip has it in his nmda antagonist thread ), maybe taurine ...

Now for other things besides nmda antafonists that will do similar things to benzos wrt gaba/glutamate, if not acting by exact same mechanism: gabapentin or Lyrica, more subtle but still... some help. Phenibut: almost same level of dependence induction as clonazepam , probably not quite as bad I took it twice a week at full, high doses, for literally a whole semester of school with no withdrawal issues... phenibut has more effects on gaba b than a, unlike benzos, and it's got gabapentinoid effects, it affects cognition way less than benzos, you can be very lucid on it.

Kratom will help a little bit bc of nmda antagonist combined wjrh partial opioid agonism... the dependence caused by kratom is real but nowhere near as bad as benzos , but if you get stimulant strains it can mess wjth your pots. Opioid agonists lower glutamate indirectly and thus help with that brain on fire feeling that benzos are helping with...but kratom also has nmda antagonist properties, which makes it sort of like killing one bird with two stones??? Lol ... by which I mean using two things to do one thing at the same time pharmacological.

Imidazenil is something which could be very promising for me/cfs and for helping people with benzo dependence problems which can be hell, it's a drug that affects gaba and I believe agonized gaba receptors without causing upregulation or tolerance

On a note of more mild things, I really think that everyone should try California poppy. Not an opium poppy, it just has the same name, and is more a mild sedative without opiates in it, which has properties similar to benzos without the intense dependence, and more mild. It doesn't cause the possible liver problems that skullcap and valerian can.
Although if u don't have liver problems and don't take tylenol or drink I'd recommend skullcap and valerian

I hope this list of things helps

Gaba/glutamate imbalance is indeed one of the main issues in me/cfs but I would not recommend taking benzos more than once a week or even less. Whitney takes them I believe once a month. As far as I know taking them once a week it's almost unheard of to develop tolerance, but once a month even more so... like that would be genuinely unheard of.

For people already dependent on benzos things can be pretty bleak, although Italian doctors have a method for getting people off using flumazenil, a benzo antagonist. Which sounds insanely dangerous , but studies show it works , tapered up from very small doses.
Flumazenil is not something anyone should try at home though. I may go to Italy for that if I can ever be well enough to travel

Thanks for the detailed post with so much useful information.

It's funny you mentioned Phenibut. A few years ago, when I had some initial symptoms but not full blown M.E., one of the first issues I had was dehydration/inability to retain fluids/always extremely dry/thirsty. I was just about about able to still function normally despite being dehydrated. I was going out on the weekends and for a period of time was taking phenibut for recreational purposes as an alternative to alcohol. I would notice after taking the phenibut, for maybe 48 hours, my body would retain fluids far better. My urine was concentrated and I felt more hydrated. So it was again, similar to clonazepam, having some positive effects on my symptoms. Unfortunately, I really didn't like the feel of being on phenibut and also found my stomach was burning in the days after, so I stopped taking it.

Again, perhaps demonstrates my issue and probably the same for many others, is a nervous system dysfunction with GABA involved.

The magnesium is interesting. Do you think megadose taken orally could help?

 

[frozenborderline]

The fact that something can kill at high doses or abuse is no reason not to have it as a medicine. Even table salt can kill at high doses. . And the inability to kill if taken in excess is not a reason to favor a drug. So i guess im lost at the pheno vs valium death index conparison since if theyre going to be compared , shoukd be on some useful property.

Lol bro I wasn't saying phenobarbital should be illegal or not used. I was telling you WHY it isn't. And the death profile versus valium is absolutely a good reason. Many of us may not care much about death because of how horrible our life is, but in general, accidental death is considered a seriously bad outcome for a drug ... like yeah, I think it's fine for people to make their own decisions about life and death if they want to , but it's absolutely not irrational or a useless metric to judge a drug on therapeutic to toxic dose ratio and how likely it is to cause accidental deaths. Most people care about accidental deaths, hence its not a useless metric.

Anyway, like I said, I'm for legalization of all meds so I don't think barbs should've been taken off the market but there was absolutely a reason for it. I've also never heard of mcas working better with barbiturates but then again, everyone is different. Mcas usually initially responds well to Benzos as they are mast cell stabilizers z but they aren't good long term solutions, but then again neither is barbiturates. You can get prescribed fioricet you know , which has a weak barbiturate in it , but it's not strong or very worthwhile

 

[frozenborderline]

magnesium is interesting. Do you think megadose taken orally could help?

You'll shit yourself before you reach a useful dosev

 

[frozenborderline]

Unfortunately, I really didn't like the feel of being on phenibut and also found my stomach was burning in the days after, so I stopped taking it.

Aah yeah phenibut hcl lol. Not easy on the stomach. Idk how my stomach survived that, or the taste. But phenibut faa, free amino acid form , is not harsh at all. No real difference besides that!

 

[frozenborderline]

perhaps because i have mast cell issues, i gravitate towards the older pharma drugs. All of the first generation meds were much closer to original sources where original sourced often meant some naturally occuring chemical that were extracted. Second, third, forth generation meds are all increasingly artificial increasingly manipulated to produce very selective narrow actions not found in nature. Everyone applauds their selectivity but those manufactured non natural chemicals make my body go beserk.

I think we should be using more old meds and that they're underlooked, but I don't think that it'd bc they are more natural. I don't even understand how this argument works. There's nothing especially natural about barbiturates.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

The magnesium is interesting. Do you think megadose taken orally could help?

It helped me enormously. I think that, along with finding this site, probably saved my life. But it took some persistent trialing to find a dose and dosing schedule that worked for me. Tiresome, but it paid off.

I believe that ME and glutamic acid/glutamate sensitivity are somehow connected, at least based on the number of members here who have glutamate sensitivities.

You'll shit yourself before you reach a useful dosev

....

It depends largely on which kind of mag you're taking. Citrate and Oxide will definitely provide you with an exciting existence racing to the bathroom, or, alternately, just taking up residence there.

Mag Glycinate, on the other hand, which is the type I took, is famous for its general lack of bowel incidents, unless you take it in HUGE amounts. I was taking as much as 2400 mgs a day, sometimes more, along with Vit C, and never had that issue.

Mag Glycinate is a molecule of mag bound to a molecule of glycine, which is an amino acid and a much larger molecule than oxide or citrate. As a result, it's digested in your stomach, whereas the other two race right thru your system and hit your intestines and colon running. No pun intended, but I'll take it ....

EDIT... for a couple of typos and a missing apostrophe, becasue mild OCD never sleeps ...

 

[frozenborderline]

It depends largely on which kind of mag your taking. Citrate and Oxide will definitely provide you with an exciting existence racing to the bathroom, or, alternately, just taking up residence there.

Mag Glycinate, on the other hand, which is the type I took, is famous for its general lack of bowel incidents, unless you take it in HUGE amounts. I was taking as much as 2400 mgs a day, sometimes more, along with Vit C, and never had that issue.

I was definitely using hyperbole here lol, and I'm glad you added more nuance

You can get some use out of oral magnesium in the most absorbable forms.

But to get to the doses in which it's a stronger nmda antagonist, calcium channel blocker and general muscle relaxant, you tend to need to absorb doses that are best absorbed by injection, whether it be intravenous, or subcutaneous or intramuscular.

Or transdermal. Hot springs, or Epsom saltbaths, or the method @Hip uses.

 

[Hip]

I was taking as much as 2400 mgs a day, sometimes more, along with Vit C, and never had that issue.

Does that dose relate to the elemental magnesium content of the magnesium glycinate, or was it the weight of the magnesium glycinate?

I have not tried magnesium glycinate, but with other forms of magnesium, more that about 400 mg of elemental magnesium tends to cause bowel flushing. But I have IBS-D to begin with, so my intestines are more sensitive to flushing anyway.

Magnesium glycinate contains 14% elemental magnesium by weight.

Of all the different forms of magnesium, magnesium oxide has the highest elemental magnesium content, at 60%.

Magnesium sulphate has 20%, magnesium malate 16%, magnesium citrate 11%, magnesium aspartate 8%, and magnesium gluconate 6%.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

But to get to the doses in which it's a stronger nmda antagonist, calcium channel blocker and general muscle relaxant, you tend to need to absorb doses that are best absorbed by injection, whether it be intravenous, or subcutaneous or intramuscular.

SEVERE ANXIETY/PANIC
That wasn't the case for me in dealing with an apparent excess of free glutamic acid and glutamate/GABA imbalances that led to excruciating panic/anxiety episodes, lasting anywhere from 8 hours to over 19, without surcease, and with crushing chest and head pressure, irregular racing heart, severe air hunger, strobby eye effects, severe muscular effects (I dubbed it marionette muscles, where I suddenly had no control over jerky, spastic muscles reactions), among others.

When I say it was agonizing, I'm barely touching on the horrors.

MAG GLY FOR RELIEF
It took me about 2 months of trialing to finally determine a method of dosing and scheduling that started to chip away at the above. I pretty quickly learned that large doses did absolutely nothing, to the point where I was going to abandon the experiment entirely. After trying repeatedly to adjust the dosage with no real improvement, I stumbled on an intuitive solution, arrived at mostly by desperation.

Instead of the standard of accepted therapeutic doses, I started taking 50 mgs of mag gly, along with 125-250 mgs of Vit C and 0.25 mgs of melatonin every 5 or 6 doses, and I took this every 45 to 60 minutes, sometimes less, depending on the increase in the severity of my symptoms. The Vit C was included due to its involvement in the modulation of glutaminergic neurotransmission, as well as its participation in dopaminergic neurotranmission. The melatonin was included on purely intuitive bases, and I found that it seemed to help.

On really bad days, which at the start of this were pretty much all of them, I'd take 50 mg doses as often as every 30 mins, and for as long as 26 - 30 hours (sleep was a near-impossibility, tho I could get occasional 45 min naps thru out those excruciating days/nites).

It took a while before I was able to be certain that this was helping, and the beneficial effets increased as time went on, until one day I suddenly realized that I'd forgotten to tae any mag/Vit C, and that Id had NO panic/anxiety attacks.

Does that dose relate to the elemental magnesium content of the magnesium glycinate, or was it the weight of the magnesium glycinate?

Since supplements are routinely sold as total mgs of ALL content, I quoted what I took based on that standard.

You're right, 100 mgs of mag gly has 14.1 mgs of elemental magnesium.

Of all the different forms of magnesium, magnesium oxide has the highest elemental magnesium content, at 60%.

It's also the least bioavailable, and one of the worst producers of bowel effects, second only to mag citrate.

Mag gly is one of the MOST bioavailable forms of mag, with the LEaST risk of bowel effects.

 

[frozenborderline]

SEVERE ANXIETY/PANIC
That wasn't the case for me in dealing with an apparent excess of free glutamic acid and glutamate/GABA imbalances that led to excruciating panic/anxiety episodes, lasting anywhere from 8 hours to over 19, without surcease, and with crushing chest and head pressure, irregular racing heart, severe air hunger, strobby eye effects, severe muscular effects (I dubbed it marionette muscles, where I suddenly had no control over jerky, spastic muscles reactions), among others.

When I say it was agonizing, I'm barely touching on the horrors.

MAG GLY FOR RELIEF
It took me about 2 months of trialing to finally determine a method of dosing and scheduling that started to chip away at the above. I pretty quickly learned that large doses did absolutely nothing, to the point where I was going to abandon the experiment entirely. After trying repeatedly to adjust the dosage with no real improvement, I stumbled on an intuitive solution, arrived at mostly by desperation.

Instead of the standard of accepted therapeutic doses, I started taking 50 mgs of mag gly, along with 125-250 mgs of Vit C and 0.25 mgs of melatonin every 5 or 6 doses, and I took this every 45 to 60 minutes, sometimes less, depending on the increase in the severity of my symptoms. The Vit C was included due to its involvement in the modulation of glutaminergic neurotransmission, as well as its participation in dopaminergic neurotranmission. The melatonin was included on purely intuitive bases, and I found that it seemed to help.

On really bad days, which at the start of this were pretty much all of them, I'd take 50 mg doses as often as every 30 mins, and for as long as 26 - 30 hours (sleep was a near-impossibility, tho I could get occasional 45 min naps thru out those excruciating days/nites).

It took a while before I was able to be certain that this was helping, and the beneficial effets increased as time went on, until one day I suddenly realized that I'd forgotten to tae any mag/Vit C, and that Id had NO panic/anxiety attacks.


Since supplements are routinely sold as total mgs of ALL content, I quoted what I took based on that standard.

You're right, 100 mgs of mag gly has 14.1 mgs of elemental magnesium.

It's also the least bioavailable, and one of the worst producers of bowel effects, second only to mag citrate.

Mag gly is one of the MOST bioavailable forms of mag, with the LEaST risk of bowel effects.

This is an inspiring and instructive story. Certainly not trying to argue oral magnesium can never be effective and some forms are certainly better than others.

But personally I've found the more noticeable effects to come from injections of some kind or transdermal. When I was in the hospital post surgery and my muscle spasms wouldn't stop, and I was maxed out on the narcotics and intense muscle relaxers , they tried iv magnesium as a hail Mary and it did work.

I've also had hot springs do an amazing job, they tend to have many electrolytes including magnesium and also lithium , and help with both rheumatic issues and mood.

And then Epsom salt footpaths and subcutaneous magnesium injections have always been fairly helpful.

 

[Replenished]

Genuinely debating if a very low dose of Clonazepam every other day or so might be the lesser of two evils given it helps reduce my symptoms massively and it's the only thing that seems to stop me feeling like utter crap every day.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Genuinely debating if a very low dose of Clonazepam every other day or so might be the lesser of two evils given it helps reduce my symptoms massively and it's the only thing that seems to stop me feeling like utter crap every day.

I'd be really, really REALLY careful, and I know I'm ot alone in those feelings.

ANY benzo is going to make you feel better, and not because it's actually healing you in any way. It masks symptoms, it gives a slight euphoria or at least a release from the very real effects of the illness you're dealing with, but it's use in ME is controversial and only very weakly 'proven' ....

If you think you feel like utter crap now, I can guarantee you that it will be much, much worse should you need to stop taking it, either because you keep breaching tolerance, or because your prescribing Dr decides to stop providing it.

Clonazepam is a fairly short-acting benzo, tho not the shortest, reaching its peak 1 to 4 hours from ingestion, with a half life of of approx 6-7 hours, tho its metabolites will stay in your system for as long as 30 hrs but will be inactive in terms of giving you any relief. It's what's left over after your body utilizes the active compnent. For this reason, it's usually prescribed as a 2 to 3 times per day dose. Valium, by comparison, has a half-life of 30 - 60 hours.

If you feel safe trailing it at, say 0.25 - 0.50 mgs every 2 to 3 days to see what benefits it's providing by the second or third day, and if you're hell-bent on giving it a shot, just be aware of the many and varied doors to hell that it could open. Cause once you start it, even at low doses, it takes a lot of discipline and determination to just stop it.

Good luck, whichever way you go, and I'm pulling for you ...

 

[Replenished]

I'd be really, really REALLY careful, and I know I'm ot alone in those feelings.

ANY benzo is going to make you feel better, and not because it's actually healing you in any way. It masks symptoms, it gives a slight euphoria or at least a release from the very real effects of the illness you're dealing with, but it's use in ME is controversial and only very weakly 'proven' ....

If you think you feel like utter crap now, I can guarantee you that it will be much, much worse should you need to stop taking it, either because you keep breaching tolerance, or because your prescribing Dr decides to stop providing it.

Clonazepam is a fairly short-acting benzo, tho not the shortest, reaching its peak 1 to 4 hours from ingestion, with a half life of of approx 6-7 hours, tho its metabolites will stay in your system for as long as 30 hrs but will be inactive in terms of giving you any relief. It's what's left over after your body utilizes the active compnent. For this reason, it's usually prescribed as a 2 to 3 times per day dose. Valium, by comparison, has a half-life of 30 - 60 hours.

If you feel safe trailing it at, say 0.25 - 0.50 mgs every 2 to 3 days to see what benefits it's providing by the second or third day, and if you're hell-bent on giving it a shot, just be aware of the many and varied doors to hell that it could open. Cause once you start it, even at low doses, it takes a lot of discipline and determination to just stop it.

Good luck, whichever way you go, and I'm pulling for you ...

It's strange because as you say, Clonazepam is short acting, but for me it's effects can seem to last up to 48 hours. Even if I am not feeling the obvious benzo type reduction in stress/anxiety which is obvious and prominent for the 4 or 5 hours after dosing, I still seem to generally feel calmer, and have less severe M.E. type symptoms for a day or two and that can just be form one 0.5mg Clonazepam tablet.

 

[SlamDancin]

Studies have shown Clonzepam has a long half life anywhere from 20-40 hours depending on source. That’s just what a quick Google search says.

 

[SlamDancin]

I have toyed with the 5 benzos a month type of idea myself. Just don’t get any more than that prescribed and you should be good

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Even if I am not feeling the obvious benzo type reduction in stress/anxiety

Clonazepam wasn't developed for stress/anxiety reduction. It was developed for epileptic seizures in an attempt to siphon off some of the steady, rich cash flow that other seizure meds, like Dilantin, were enjoying,

When that didn't pan out, Roche started pushing it, first to psychiatrists, then to anyone they could button-hole long enough to deliver their sales pitch, as an anti-anxiety med, anti-social phobia med, sleep enhancing med, smoking cessation med, you name it. Like the song says, it's very ver-sah-tile .....

If it helps you, and you feel strong enough to deal with it, do what you feel is needed.

Like I said, I'm pulling for you, either way ...