Chinese skullcap seems to correct PEM/the energy problem in ME

[stefanosstef]

There was a large Levine study a few years ago that implied this, I think. Sorry to hear it didn't have any immediate effect, it is possible that it only produces very significant effects (such as being able to exercise freely) in those people who are already fairly active (i.e. not taking rests to make it through the day, I had already got to this point thanks to other treatments which I have listed above when I started taking the skullcap). One way to test it would be to do whatever form of exercise/exertion produced full-on PEM before, and see if say 9g of Chinese skullcap does anything to affect this. Just to check, you made an infusion with the root, correct?

Yes, not boiling water but it was steaming.I let it in for more than 10'.Yeah I was thinking the same, working out and trying the max dose at the first signs that I'm gonna have PEM.PEM starts in 24 hours (or a bit more) after training but I have very minor symptoms way before that point, so usually I can tell it's gonna happen.

 

[msf]

Yes, my PEM is also delayed, but I could tell it was working during my work out the first time I took it, as I was not constantly out of breath like I had been previously. I usually use boiling water and leave it to brew for at least 15 min, and make several cups worth in a tea cup so it gradually gets stronger.

 

[Wishful]

any info/sources about the increase of gut permeability after exercising and the idea that this is the cause of PEM?It's quite intriguing.

That may be a false correlation. Many things change due to physical exertion, so it's hard to figure out which one is responsible. I could do hours of strenuous physical activity without triggering PEM, but a minute or two of light but not accustomed to activity (climbing a ladder or washing a window above shoulder height) was enough to trigger PEM. I can imagine the former activity altering gut permeability, but not the latter.

 

[msf]

I can imagine both doing it. I think we had this conversation before, and I can't remember what you were referring to as 'strenous activity.' Different kinds of exercise definitely do have different effects: anything where the heartrate is increased substantially for even a few minutes (such as running) or anything where there is a lot of eccentric movement (such as washing a window above shoulder height) produce much more PEM in me (and in my father, who also had ME) than things like walking for several hours.

 

[BrightCandle]

I managed to get hold of some Scutellaria baicalensis from Lymeherbs a few days ago, took a long time for delivery.

I made up my first batch using 200ml of water and 3g of Skullcap root sections, boiled for 5 minutes and allowed to cool for 30minutes before ingesting. It produced a quite strongly yellow/orange toned liquid that I think will stain pans if not cleaned quickly.

The plan was to just do this and see what if any effect this had. I felt light-headed mostly but nothing else, no extra energy nor anything else. The light-headed sensation lasted the rest of the day but gradually subsided. I did the same thing again yesterday with the same brain fog result but I also took a trip to the postbox, which for a severe ME patient usually bed and housebound is an every spoon big exertion. The result was a mild crash with an increased base heart rate. This is in line with what happened previously with the same activity 3 weeks ago.

So on initial testing over a couple of days at the packets recommended dose (but at the lowest end of msf's dose range) all I have got from it is brain fog, dizziness, lightheadedness and no PEM protection at all. I am not done trying this I will have a go again once I recover from this mild crash with double the dose and see what effects that has. The negative side effects at low dose are a little concerning I must admit.

It tastes OK, I definitely eat and drink stuff for health reasons that tastes worse than this.

 

[msf]

I managed to get hold of some Scutellaria baicalensis from Lymeherbs a few days ago, took a long time for delivery.

I made up my first batch using 200ml of water and 3g of Skullcap root sections, boiled for 5 minutes and allowed to cool for 30minutes before ingesting. It produced a quite strongly yellow/orange toned liquid that I think will stain pans if not cleaned quickly.

The plan was to just do this and see what if any effect this had. I felt light-headed mostly but nothing else, no extra energy nor anything else. The light-headed sensation lasted the rest of the day but gradually subsided. I did the same thing again yesterday with the same brain fog result but I also took a trip to the postbox, which for a severe ME patient usually bed and housebound is an every spoon big exertion. The result was a mild crash with an increased base heart rate. This is in line with what happened previously with the same activity 3 weeks ago.

So on initial testing over a couple of days at the packets recommended dose (but at the lowest end of msf's dose range) all I have got from it is brain fog, dizziness, lightheadedness and no PEM protection at all. I am not done trying this I will have a go again once I recover from this mild crash with double the dose and see what effects that has. The negative side effects at low dose are a little concerning I must admit.

It tastes OK, I definitely eat and drink stuff for health reasons that tastes worse than this.

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried any of the other treatments I suggested in this thread, such as Trazodone or the FODMAP diet? I find that if my sleep and gut aren't ok, then skullcap is not as effective. I have never noticed any brainfog or any other side effects from taking skullcap, except for the possible exacerbation of peripheral neuropathy Ive already mentioned. Also, it may not be important, but I add the skullcap to boiling water, rather than boiling water with it already in. Oh, and out of curiosity, how many pieces approximately is 3g?

 

[BrightCandle]

Sorry to hear that. Have you tried any of the other treatments I suggested in this thread, such as Trazodone or the FODMAP diet? I find that if my sleep and gut aren't ok, then skullcap is not as effective. I have never noticed any brainfog or any other side effects from taking skullcap, except for the possible exacerbation of peripheral neuropathy Ive already mentioned. Also, it may not be important, but I add the skullcap to boiling water, rather than boiling water with it already in. Oh, and out of curiosity, how many pieces approximately is 3g?

I have taken SSRIs in the past which didn't do anything on their own but the most I am taking at the moment is 200mg of 5-HTP which is a mild over the counter SSRI. I do follow the FODMAP diet currently and am not suffering IBS symptoms presently so I would say I am remarkably similar in that regard as to other treatments that work for me.

To clarify I added to boiling water, I didn't heat the water on the stove until boiling. Technically the packagings exact instruction is unclear, it precisely reads "Pour one teaspoon of the product in 200ml of water, boil for 5 minutes...". That could be interpreted either way and I took the more common meaning of adding to already boiling water but they could have meant to add to cold water and then heat, I doubt it makes much difference to extraction honestly.

3g is a heaped teaspoon, roughly 7-9 or so pieces of cut root. But given that the product is prepared in a variety of ways its best to stick to as precise measures as possible and by weight is the way to go since volume can't be accurate and pieces would be very inaccurate as they vary quite a bit in size and shape.

I shall try again next week at a higher dose and see if I get the same results.

 

[msf]

I have taken SSRIs in the past which didn't do anything on their own but the most I am taking at the moment is 200mg of 5-HTP which is a mild over the counter SSRI. I do follow the FODMAP diet currently and am not suffering IBS symptoms presently so I would say I am remarkably similar in that regard as to other treatments that work for me.

To clarify I added to boiling water, I didn't heat the water on the stove until boiling. Technically the packagings exact instruction is unclear, it precisely reads "Pour one teaspoon of the product in 200ml of water, boil for 5 minutes...". That could be interpreted either way and I took the more common meaning of adding to already boiling water but they could have meant to add to cold water and then heat, I doubt it makes much difference to extraction honestly.

3g is a heaped teaspoon, roughly 7-9 or so pieces of cut root. But given that the product is prepared in a variety of ways its best to stick to as precise measures as possible and by weight is the way to go since volume can't be accurate and pieces would be very inaccurate as they vary quite a bit in size and shape.

I shall try again next week at a higher dose and see if I get the same results.

Sorry, I meant to say I boil the kettle then add the skullcap to the water.

I tried an SSRI before, but it did not have the effect that Trazodone did, which most likely works in people with ME by suppressing microglial activation in the brain, as Younger found that LDN does.

That is approximately how many pieces I use each time, although there are many variables as you say.

Also, do you have POTS? I would imagine that skullcap would not have any effect on this.

 

[BrightCandle]

Also, do you have POTS? I would imagine that skullcap would not have any effect on this.

I do potentially have POTS, it's worse when crashed and Skullcap didn't impact it, might have made heart rate marginally worse but noticeably.

 

[msf]

I do potentially have POTS, it's worse when crashed and Skullcap didn't impact it, might have made heart rate marginally worse but noticeably.

I was suggesting that your problems with exercise may also be caused by your POTS, which I don't think skullcap would treat, although it should still help to some extent if you have the same kind of energy problems.

 

[msf]

Update: I have had an eventful couple of months with the skullcap and my ME, but the key thing I have found that it is still very effective, and still the most effective treatment I have tried, at least in terms of exercise anyway, but probably also for general health.

I found this out the hard way, however: I actually managed to inadvertently carry out a blinded, placebo-controlled test on myself! The short version of how this happened is that I mixed up astralagus root with chinese skullcap (there was some linguistic trouble as I was buying it in a Chinese medicine shop as I usually do, so my advice is write the characters down beforehand!). This turned out to be considerably less effective than skullcap, even though when I realized my mistake I found that it seems to have some similar qualitiies in terms of reducing the body's reaction to stressors such as LPS, and may be effective when combined with skullcap (I have not tried this yet.) When I discovered my mistake and started to take skullcap again, I immediately was able to do more exercise again - having only done one session a week on the astralagus root, since i needed that long to recover from the PEM, I did four sessions in four days the day after I started taking skullcap again.

However, I then stupidly thought that I was back to where I had been a few months ago, and drank a considerable amount on three occasions in one week. After doing this, I found that I could not exercise properly again, until last week when I made a new discovery: the skullcap I had been taking since realizing my mistake was actually a much less potent form of skullcap called withered skullcap (枯芩), rather than the one I had taken before, which is known as strip skullcap (条芩 ), since it is produced in strips. The following article refers to these as WSR and YSR respectively (since the strip one is the young version), and notes that these two varieties have differing levels of baicalin, which the study suggests is the reason for YSR or strip skullcap's greater efficacy (it may just have a higher baicalin/baicalein ratio, but other things I read suggests this is higher because the level of baicalin is lower in withered skullcap or WSR, rather than because there is a higher level of baicalein - this interpretation makes more sense given the way baicalin changes into baicalein before it can be absorbed by the body, and given the fact that there is much more baicalin than baicalein in skullcap root to begin with, and thus decreases in baicalin are more significant. Finally, I managed to get the same effect I get with YSR by doubling the dose of WSR, suggesting that it is to do with the level of baicalin rather than the ratio).


https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31920656/

The fact that the study shows that YSR is effective in chronic ulcerative colitis suggests that skullcap may also help in ME patients through its direct effects on the gut, and the increase in GI symptoms I had while not taking YSR suggests to me that this is true.


Anyway, to summarize:

- Chinese skullcap (the variety of it known as strip skullcap, allows me to exercise pretty much freely when taken in reasonably large doses (3-6 grams a time in 2-3 doses each day). Note that I have added sodium bicarbonate back into my workout formula that I posted above, as this seems to be useful when trying to work out when I already have that lactic acid feeling.

- the variety of skullcap known as withered skullcap also has an effect, but it is not nearly as effective at the same dose.

- astralagus root does not have the same effect on exercise, and is easy to confuse with YSR!

Once again, I hope this encourages others to try Chinese skullcap/YSR so that they hopefully reap some of the same benefits. I am actually approaching the best shape of my life at 35, and since I got ME at 28 that isn't bad going. I also feel and look healthy when I take skullcap, with only minimal PEM if I push myself too far (i.e. combining strenous exercise with drinking).

 

[Hip]

Chinese skullcap (the variety of it known as strip skullcap, allows me to exercise pretty much freely when taken in reasonably large doses (3-6 grams a time in 2-3 doses each day).

Is your Chinese skullcap root just unaltered powder from the root, or might it be a concentrated extract (that maybe has higher levels of baicalin)? I have some Swanson Chinese skullcap root capsules, which is a 4:1 extract, and I think this would have higher levels of baicalin. In regular Chinese skullcap root, as you know, there is around 10% baicalin.


Do you think boiling the root in water is important? We know bioavailability of baicalin is only around 2% (in rats), so perhaps boiling in water improves bioavailability?

However, baicalin has poor solubility in water, just 0.18 mg per ml, according to this paper. Usually poor water solubility results in poor bioavailability.


Have you ever tried a pure baicalin supplement, instead of Chinese skullcap, just to test whether it is indeed the baicalin that you derive the anti-PEM benefits from? If you are taking 5 grams of the root, then this would correspond to around 500 mg of baicalin. Dragon Herbs have a pure baicalin 425 mg x 100 supplement.


Do you notice any benefits from Chinese skullcap root other than its anti-PEM effect? For example, even if you do not exercise or exert yourself, does skullcap perhaps increase energy?

 

[Wishful]

Mistakes can lead to new discoveries. Being too careful about buying the exact same treatment and taking it in the same amounts at the same time each day can miss out on finding something better.

 

[msf]

Is your Chinese skullcap root just unaltered powder from the root, or might it be a concentrated extract (that maybe has higher levels of baicalin)? I have some Swanson Chinese skullcap root capsules, which is a 4:1 extract, and I think this would have higher levels of baicalin. In regular Chinese skullcap root, as you know, there is around 10% baicalin.


Do you think boiling the root in water is important? We know bioavailability of baicalin is only around 2% (in rats), so perhaps boiling in water improves bioavailability?

However, baicalin has poor solubility in water, just 0.18 mg per ml, according to this paper. Usually poor water solubility results in poor bioavailability.


Have you ever tried a pure baicalin supplement, instead of Chinese skullcap, just to test whether it is indeed the baicalin that you derive the anti-PEM benefits from? If you are taking 5 grams of the root, then this would correspond to around 500 mg of baicalin. Dragon Herbs have a pure baicalin 425 mg x 100 supplement.


Do you notice any benefits from Chinese skullcap root other than its anti-PEM effect? For example, even if you do not exercise or exert yourself, does skullcap perhaps increase energy?

Hi Hip, it's not even powder, just cross sections of the root as sold under the name strip skullcap at Chinese medicine stores.

I actually tried that Swanson product a while back, and didn't notice any effect, although I only took one capsule a day as recommended. If it is the 400 mg one, then taking 1 capsule would be similar to 2-3 grams of the root (baicalin content is normally between 10-15%), which is a fairly low dose for me. Moreover, the article below shows that pure baicalin is less readily absorbed into the body than the baicalin that is present alongside other compounds in skullcap root. Judging by the AUC of both the former and the latter, one pill of the Swanson product might amount to as little as 1-2 grams of the root. Furthermore, I have seen evidence that steeping skullcap root in hot water increases absorption, and this is how it is traditionally prepared in Chinese medicine. So I think the functional dose that I took in pill form was most likely a fraction of that I take in root form, and that this is why it seemed to have no effect.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3813259/

If you are concerned about bioavailability, it might be worth giving the combination of skullcap plus peony root suggested in this study a go, as I have done. Because I have changed the type of skullcap I have used recently, I have not determined whether the peony root has much effect yet, but it is something to consider. As an aside, instead of the fanciful explanation of how it works to increase baicalin bioavailability given in the article, the true explanation is probably simply that peony root as a CYP3A4 inhibitor inhibits the processing of baicalin by the liver, which would explain the approx 8-12 cycle observed in this study. Given that both work on CYP3A4, this is something to be aware of, although I have been taking both with Trazodone (another drug that is processed by this enzyme) for two weeks without any side effects. With regard to liver toxicity, peony root seems to be protective, just as skullcap root is in some studies.


With regard to overall energy levels, I find that most of my tiredness is associated with that lactic acid feeling. When I was mistakenly taking the astralagus root much this lactic acid tiredness returned in force, making it a challenge to even get through the work day (since I thought I was taking skullcap I did not even take larger amounts of ALA as I did before I discovered skullcap). This showed me that I still have moderate ME if I do not take skullcap or at least ALA.

 

[gregh286]

Is your Chinese skullcap root just unaltered powder from the root, or might it be a concentrated extract (that maybe has higher levels of baicalin)? I have some Swanson Chinese skullcap root capsules, which is a 4:1 extract, and I think this would have higher levels of baicalin. In regular Chinese skullcap root, as you know, there is around 10% baicalin.


Do you think boiling the root in water is important? We know bioavailability of baicalin is only around 2% (in rats), so perhaps boiling in water improves bioavailability?

However, baicalin has poor solubility in water, just 0.18 mg per ml, according to this paper. Usually poor water solubility results in poor bioavailability.


Have you ever tried a pure baicalin supplement, instead of Chinese skullcap, just to test whether it is indeed the baicalin that you derive the anti-PEM benefits from? If you are taking 5 grams of the root, then this would correspond to around 500 mg of baicalin. Dragon Herbs have a pure baicalin 425 mg x 100 supplement.


Do you notice any benefits from Chinese skullcap root other than its anti-PEM effect? For example, even if you do not exercise or exert yourself, does skullcap perhaps increase energy?

Seen that hip.
Might give the Baicalin a whirl from Dragon. Always a hassle getting it uk from iherb.

I tried this instead, looks "similar" scutelleria root, but is dragon extract? is there a difference i wonder: amazon.co.uk/Baikal-Skullcap-scutellaria-baicalensis-additives/dp/B08KTJCP77/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1YAVZUMCW9ERO&dchild=1&keywords=scutellaria+root&qid=1604509661&sprefix=scutellaria+baicalensis%2Caps%2C119&sr=8-2

I think we are not matching dose of msf

@msf glad its still working out for you,

 

[Hip]

I tried this instead, looks "similar" scutelleria root, but is dragon extract? is there a difference i wonder:

No, that's just the root powder, which will naturally contain about 10% baicalin.

 

[msf]

People seem to have a reluctance to try the root itself, which I sort of understand, but on the other hand the only reports of hepatotoxicity I know of have been regarding supplements made from skullcap, where it is often mixed with other things. Also, although there may well be underreporting among users of Chinese medicine of such cases from using the root, the fact that skullcap is often prescribed for liver problems suggests that this is not hat common, as surely if it was it would no longer be commonly recommended for this.

 

[Hip]

In the UK, Amazon sell Chinese skullcap root cut pieces, 250 grams for £22.

I may try this at some point.

 

[msf]

In the UK, Amazon sell Chinese skullcap root cut pieces, 250 grams for £22.

I may try this at some point.

If you do, make sure that it is the strip skullcap variety I mentioned above, which is generally light yellow in the middle rather than brown as with withered skullcap. Or just take a double dose of the latter.

NB, I just checked and it looks to be withered skullcap, so if you are worried about taking a large dose then I would try to find some strip skullcap.

 

[msf]

This one looks more promising, although you can't really see a cross-section of the root, and you always have to decide whether you trust the supplier:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Scutellaria-baicalensis-Harvested-байкальский-Mountains/dp/B0857DL8PD/ref=pd_sbs_121_5/261-2144217-9123834?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0857DL8PD&pd_rd_r=27bf81cb-ebc5-420a-9bee-641ae08ffd4e&pd_rd_w=RwVYk&pd_rd_wg=WYbZM&pf_rd_p=2304238d-df78-4b25-a9a0-b27dc7bd722e&pf_rd_r=JC38DARJF3TY3AR5BKXG&psc=1&refRID=JC38DARJF3TY3AR5BKXG

Strip skullcap generally looks like this:

https://cn.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=07Ifu5uh&id=68AE8C6A477FB34E0F69006E009185D35A36F484&thid=OIP.07Ifu5uhvaIj2TFJAaMhlAHaC9&mediaurl=https://ask.zhifure.com/upload/images/2020/2/241933977.jpg&exph=320&expw=800&q=条芩&simid=608028053577665676&ck=BA643AA0F42162BE8DE154A867DBB27B&selectedIndex=14&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

For some reason it often comes in oval rather than round pieces, and can be very light in colour (more like a sapling than like the tree colour of withered skullcap). But there are obviously gradations between these these two archetypes, depending on exactly how long it has been grown for (younger is better). Then where it has been grown (more northerly is generally better) is another consideration, which is a point in favour of the one grown in the altai mountains.