Chinese skullcap seems to correct PEM/the energy problem in ME

[msf]

It helps me with the main metabolic issue that I have, which is producing energy in a normal way. It is likely to have other effects too, such as reducing inflammation, but the former is the most obvious effect I have noticed.

RE: the liver damage, I have noted that several times in this thread, as it is definitely something to watch out for. However, I also take trazodone, which is known to have similar effects (i.e. reversible hepatoxicity), so my policy is to use both of these very effective medications for as long as I can, and use no more than I need to live my life in a normal way, for as long as liver damage does not occur, in which case I will stop using the causative agent. Since both cause reversible hepatoxicity if caught early enough, the takeaway for me is to be alert to this effect rather than discarding the most effective medications I have tried for ME.

 

[pattismith]

@msf

thank you for reporting to nice success,


do you have a link where I can see the effect of Scutellaria Baicalensis Georgi on mitochondrial Complex V , please?

Also I which to know if Baicalin and Baicalein are the flavones involved in SBG activity, do you have an idea?

 

[Learner1]

It helps me with the main metabolic issue that I have, which is producing energy in a normal way. It is likely to have other effects too, such as reducing inflammation, but the former is the most obvious effect I have noticed.

Yes, please. What evidence do you have at skullcap modifies the production of ATP? Do you have any research studies that support this?

Boswellia and curcumin can help reduce inflammation as well. Have you tried high doses of either?

RE: the liver damage, I have noted that several times in this thread, as it is definitely something to watch out for. However, I also take trazodone, which is known to have similar effects (i.e. reversible hepatoxicity), so my policy is to use both of these very effective medications for as long as I can, and use no more than I need to live my life in a normal way, for as long as liver damage does not occur, in which case I will stop using the causative agent. Since both cause reversible hepatoxicity if caught early enough, the takeaway for me is to be alert to this effect rather than discarding the most effective medications I have tried for ME.

One can also support the liver and the mitochondria, which are the places the liver damage occurs. Again, curcumin may be helpful, as well as milk thistle, artichoke, and other botanicals, as well as mitochondrial support nutrients. Supporting mitochondria with nutrients, a "mitochondrial cocktail" can go a long way to help improve ATP production.

 

[godlovesatrier]

As learner said. If you take a high extract milk thistle with silymarin content. Your going to get a lot of liver support. Other plants like redroot americanus and andrograogis also help to heal the liver. But milk thistle is by far the best known and I expect probably the most effective. I had high liver enzymes end of July. A week later after taking milk thistle 3x a day in tincture form with dandelion tincture it was back to normal. I'm sure it helped to get my liver enzymes in the right shape. All confirmed with blood tests by the way.

 

[msf]

Yes, please. What evidence do you have at skullcap modifies the production of ATP? Do you have any research studies that support this?

Boswellia and curcumin can help reduce inflammation as well. Have you tried high doses of either?

One can also support the liver and the mitochondria, which are the places the liver damage occurs. Again, curcumin may be helpful, as well as milk thistle, artichoke, and other botanicals, as well as mitochondrial support nutrients. Supporting mitochondria with nutrients, a "mitochondrial cocktail" can go a long way to help improve ATP production.

I posted a study earlier in the thread, albeit in chickens.

I have not tried boswellia. Curcumin did not have any noticeable effect except for making GI issues worse, but that was when my gut issues were pretty bad, maybe I should try it again.

 

[msf]

@msf

thank you for reporting to nice success,


do you have a link where I can see the effect of Scutellaria Baicalensis Georgi on mitochondrial Complex V , please?

Also I which to know if Baicalin and Baicalein are the flavones involved in SBG activity, do you have an idea?

As I said, I posted it earlier in the thread, the study on chickens. In the study it refers to complex V as ATPase. The chemical studied was baicalin.

 

[pattismith]

Thank you @msf, I finally found it!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6781171/

This one was the clincher for me: Baicalin (a chemical in Chinese skullcap) restored the infection-triggered decrease in ATPase (the enzyme for Complex V, or the fifth step in the energy chain), thereby restoring normal energy metabolism. Yes, this was in chickens, but it seems to have the same effect in me too, so draw your own conclusions from that.

It correlates with this study saying that some SBE anticancer activity is driven by mitochondrial toxicity and attenuated by the Baicalin fraction.

On the other hand Baicalin has itself anticancer activity on some malignant cell by inhibition of the akt/mTor pathway...

It's interesting to notice that NAD+ which is also a mitochondrial activator and an akt/mTor inhibitor (via sirt1 activation) can have both pro or anti cancer activity, depending of the cell or situation.

NAD+ given at high dose can also be hepatotoxic.

To conclude, NAD+ and Baicalin may produce both positive effect on mitochondria, adressing different mitochondrial issues.

In this very recent study, Baicalin showed to be neuroprotective in Diabetic neuropathy via the same pathway NAD+ has shown efficiency, via sirtuin 1 activation /NF‑κB inhibition, so these products has some common points!

Do you know how much baicalin you are taking each day @msf ?

 

[Learner1]

I have not tried boswellia. Curcumin did not have any noticeable effect except for making GI issues worse, but that was when my gut issues were pretty bad, maybe I should try it again.

Boswellia has been given in conventional medicine to glioblastoma patients to reduce brain swelling. Curcumin is not very bioavailable, and I found high dose (2g) of the highest quality oral supplement I've been able to locate, Designs for Health CurcumEvail, it's quite effective at reducing inflammation in the body as well as in the brain.

It's interesting to notice that NAD+ which is also a mitochondrial activator and an akt/mTor inhibitor (via sirt1 activation) can have both pro or anti cancer activity, depending of the cell or situation.

NAD+ given at high dose can also be hepatotoxic.

Thanks for pointing these out. Too much of any substance can be a problem and even though NAD helps a lot of us, there is some risk, and it's pretty to take as little as we need to "normalize" function and not to shoot for the stars.

 

[Wishful]

Maybe the study was done with the intent of improving chicken production. Valid research, but probably only applicable for avians.

 

[msf]

Boswellia has been given in conventional medicine to glioblastoma patients to reduce brain swelling. Curcumin is not very bioavailable, and I found high dose (2g) of the highest quality oral supplement I've been able to locate, Designs for Health CurcumEvail, it's quite effective at reducing inflammation in the body as well as in the brain.
Thanks for pointing these out. Too much of any substance can be a problem and even though NAD helps a lot of us, there is some risk, and it's pretty to take as little as we need to "normalize" function and not to shoot for the stars.

I may have been saying that: a.) after taking Chinese skullcap, I can know exercise normally again, thus becoming functionally healthy; b.) that others may like to try and see if this has the same effect in them, since the possible hepatotoxic side effects of skullcap only occur with repeated use; c) sthat its effects on complex V (in chickens yes, sorry there were no rat studies to be had) may suggest the mechanism by which it works, given that a recent study of ME patients showed the problem with the energy cycle in their immune cells was to be found in complex V; d. even if this is not the mechanism, it doesn't matter anyway, as thanks to skullcap I am getting on with my life and enjoying it again.

 

[msf]

Thank you @msf, I finally found it!





It correlates with this study saying that some SBE anticancer activity is driven by mitochondrial toxicity and attenuated by the Baicalin fraction.

On the other hand Baicalin has itself anticancer activity on some malignant cell by inhibition of the akt/mTor pathway...

It's interesting to notice that NAD+ which is also a mitochondrial activator and an akt/mTor inhibitor (via sirt1 activation) can have both pro or anti cancer activity, depending of the cell or situation.

NAD+ given at high dose can also be hepatotoxic.

To conclude, NAD+ and Baicalin may produce both positive effect on mitochondria, adressing different mitochondrial issues.

In this very recent study, Baicalin showed to be neuroprotective in Diabetic neuropathy via the same pathway NAD+ has shown efficiency, via sirtuin 1 activation /NF‑κB inhibition, so these products has some common points!

Do you know how much baicalin you are taking each day @msf ?

As I said above, I don't have any means of accurately measuring it at the moment, but I would guess its approximately in same range as the traditional dose used in Chinese medicine (3-9g); even this though would just be a rule of thumb, unless you got skullcap that was identical in its consitituents and that you brewed for exactly the same length of time each time). That's why I encouraged people to use the above range as a starting point to see if it has any effect on them.

 

[msf]

Here is a rat study showing baicalin's effects on ATPase for those of you who aren't big fans of 'avians,' or birds as they are more commonly known: http://www.zgddek.com/EN/abstract/abstract14259.shtml

some biochemical processes may be so essential that they have been evolutionary conserved largely unchanged over millions of years, and therefore substances that affects these processes may have an effect in species that are only distantly related.

 

[pattismith]

@msf

you don't know the baicalin content of your chinese herb, it is a problem for me.
I plan to try a SBG supplement with know baicalin % and add it to my Nicotinamide Riboside supplement, it may have mitochondrial synergic effect...(with liver check up)

Here is a rat study showing baicalin's effects on ATPase for those of you who aren't big fans of 'avians,' or birds as they are more commonly known: http://www.zgddek.com/EN/abstract/abstract14259.shtml

The study you quoted is very interesting, with different baicalin dosages:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506353/

[Effect of baicalin on ATPase and LDH and its regulatory effect on the AC/cAMP/PKA signaling pathway in rats with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder]

[Article in Chinese]
Rong-Yi Zhou 1, Jiao-Jiao Wang, Yue You, Ji-Chao Sun, Yu-Chen Song, Hai-Xia Yuan, Xin-Min Han
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 28506353
• PMCID: PMC7389122
• DOI: 10.7499/j.issn.1008-8830.2017.05.020

Free PMC article
Abstract
in En , Chinese

Objective:

To study the effect of baicalin on synaptosomal adenosine triphosphatase (ATPase) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) and its regulatory effect on the adenylate cyclase (AC)/cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP)/protein kinase A (PKA) signaling pathway in rats with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

Methods:

A total of 40 SHR rats were randomly divided into five groups:

-ADHD model,
-methylphenidate hydrochloride treatment (0.07 mg/mL),
-and low-dose (3.33 mg/mL),
-medium-dose (6.67 mg/mL),
-and high-dose (10 mg/mL) baicalin treatment (n=8 each).

Eight WKY rats were selected as normal control group. Percoll density gradient centrifugation was used to prepare brain synaptosomes and an electron microscope was used to observe their structure. Colorimetry was used to measure the activities of ATPase and LDH in synaptosomes. ELISA was used to measure the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA.

Results:

Compared with the normal control group,
the ADHD model group had a significant reduction in the ATPase activity, a significant increase in the LDH activity, and significant reductions in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).

Compared with the ADHD model group, the methylphenidate hydrochloride group and the medium- and high-dose baicalin groups had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05), a significant reduction in the LDH activity (P<0.05), and significant increases in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).

Compared with the methylphenidate hydrochloride group, the high-dose baicalin group had significantly greater changes in these indices (P<0.05).

Compared with the low-dose baicalin group, the high-dose baicalin group had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05);

the medium- and high-dose baicalin groups had a significant reduction in the LDH activity (P<0.05) and significant increases in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).


Compared with the medium-dose baicalin group, the high-dose baicalin group had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05).

Conclusions:

Both methylphenidate hydrochloride and baicalin can improve synaptosomal ATPase and LDH activities in rats with ADHD. The effect of baicalin is dose-dependent, and high-dose baicalin has a significantly greater effect than methylphenidate hydrochloride.
Baicalin exerts its therapeutic effect possibly by upregulating the AC/cAMP/PKA signaling pathway.

 

[msf]

@msf

you don't know the baicalin content of your chinese herb, it is a problem for me.
I plan to try a SBG supplement with know baicalin % and add it to my Nicotinamide Riboside supplement, it may have mitochondrial synergic effect...(with liver check up)



The study you quoted is very interesting, with different baicalin dosages:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28506353/

[Effect of baicalin on ATPase and LDH and its regulatory effect on the AC/cAMP/PKA signaling pathway in rats with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder]

[Article in Chinese]
Rong-Yi Zhou 1, Jiao-Jiao Wang, Yue You, Ji-Chao Sun, Yu-Chen Song, Hai-Xia Yuan, Xin-Min Han
Affiliations expand

• PMID: 28506353
• PMCID: PMC7389122
• DOI: 10.7499/j.issn.1008-8830.2017.05.020

Free PMC article
Abstract
in En , Chinese

Objective:

To study the effect of baicalin on synaptosomal adenosine triphosphatase (ATPase) and lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) and its regulatory effect on the adenylate cyclase (AC)/cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP)/protein kinase A (PKA) signaling pathway in rats with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

Methods:

A total of 40 SHR rats were randomly divided into five groups:

-ADHD model,
-methylphenidate hydrochloride treatment (0.07 mg/mL),
-and low-dose (3.33 mg/mL),
-medium-dose (6.67 mg/mL),
-and high-dose (10 mg/mL) baicalin treatment (n=8 each).

Eight WKY rats were selected as normal control group. Percoll density gradient centrifugation was used to prepare brain synaptosomes and an electron microscope was used to observe their structure. Colorimetry was used to measure the activities of ATPase and LDH in synaptosomes. ELISA was used to measure the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA.

Results:

Compared with the normal control group,
the ADHD model group had a significant reduction in the ATPase activity, a significant increase in the LDH activity, and significant reductions in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).

Compared with the ADHD model group, the methylphenidate hydrochloride group and the medium- and high-dose baicalin groups had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05), a significant reduction in the LDH activity (P<0.05), and significant increases in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).

Compared with the methylphenidate hydrochloride group, the high-dose baicalin group had significantly greater changes in these indices (P<0.05).

Compared with the low-dose baicalin group, the high-dose baicalin group had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05);

the medium- and high-dose baicalin groups had a significant reduction in the LDH activity (P<0.05) and significant increases in the content of AC, cAMP, and PKA (P<0.05).


Compared with the medium-dose baicalin group, the high-dose baicalin group had a significant increase in the ATPase activity (P<0.05).

Conclusions:

Both methylphenidate hydrochloride and baicalin can improve synaptosomal ATPase and LDH activities in rats with ADHD. The effect of baicalin is dose-dependent, and high-dose baicalin has a significantly greater effect than methylphenidate hydrochloride.
Baicalin exerts its therapeutic effect possibly by upregulating the AC/cAMP/PKA signaling pathway.

Yes, I took skullcap in supplement form before, but it did not seem to have much effect. A couple of things to keep in mind are that the way that the chemicals in skullcap (such as baicalin) are absorbed into the body is quite complicated and that the absorbtion of these chemicals may be interdependent (for example, baicalein can transform into baicalin in the body), and that studies have shown that heating skullcap before ingestion (such as in a infusion) increases the absorption of these chemicals.

 

[msf]

Another interesting thing from the study I quoted above is the baicalin-mediated decrease in LDH: this may be downstream of its effects on ATPase, but if not would potentially be another reason to consider its use in people with ME, or at least those with high levels of lactic acid.

 

[andyguitar]

Alternatively, some biochemical processes may be so essential that they have been evolutionary conserved largely unchanged over millions of years, and therefore substances that affects these processes may have an effect in species that are only distantly related.

I expect this is true.

 

[stefanosstef]

@msf any info/sources about the increase of gut permeability after exercising and the idea that this is the cause of PEM?It's quite intriguing.

I tried 2 times at 3g and 1 time at 3.5g and didn't see any reductions in very mild PEM due to not taking rests as I should.

 

[msf]

@msf any info/sources about the increase of gut permeability after exercising and the idea that this is the cause of PEM?It's quite intriguing.

I tried 2 times at 3g and 1 time at 3.5g and didn't see any reductions in very mild PEM due to not taking rests as I should.

There was a large Levine study a few years ago that implied this, I think. Sorry to hear it didn't have any immediate effect, it is possible that it only produces very significant effects (such as being able to exercise freely) in those people who are already fairly active (i.e. not taking rests to make it through the day, I had already got to this point thanks to other treatments which I have listed above when I started taking the skullcap). One way to test it would be to do whatever form of exercise/exertion produced full-on PEM before, and see if say 9g of Chinese skullcap does anything to affect this. Just to check, you made an infusion with the root, correct?

 

[Zebra]

Hi, @msf

I just want to thank you for sharing your experience with the group, and regularly returning to patiently answer questions on this thread. Even the repetitive ones!

 

[msf]

I think almost everything that has helped me except maybe the FODMAP diet has either been something that I have directly found out about on PR, or has been something I read up about after reading about reading something related on PR, so I am just repaying the favour. I am not always as patient as I might be, but I think everyone on PR understands how much additional stress (for want of a better word) this illness puts people under, so hopefully people understand. I also understand people who have seen too many miracle cures touted on PR and get annoyed with what they perceive to be another false claim. I think the only thing I can say to those people is that a.) I am not claiming it is a miracle cure, or even a cure, just that it has proven to be a very effective treatment in my case; b.) have tried quite a lot of treatments for ME, and read a lot of scientific papers to understand what might be driving my illness; and c.) taking skullcap wasn't actually an idea that I came up with on my own, it was based both on the studies I have posted and some work by another ME researcher.