Chinese skullcap seems to correct PEM/the energy problem in ME

[msf]

Hi @msf
Love Reading your updates
Please don't stop.
I would love some extra cardio power. I'm still mild but I don't think I could match you in a gym. Running is something else.
Are you saying the astragalus lowers your alcohol next day symptoms? You notice if you drink and miss astragalus.?
Your skullcap doses seems to be x10 over the bottle.recommended. think that's why none of us are reaching you. Just not getting the dose high enough

Great work

No problem, telling other people about stuff that works for you is what phoenixrising is for, along with sympathy from fellow sufferers. Cardio in the broad sense is the thing I noticed literally within half an hour of taking Chinese skullcap for the first time. I did a kettlebell session, and previously I would have to lie down after each set and do breathing exercises so that I didn't trigger PEM, but this time I didn't feel dangerously out of breath from the same exercises. The boxing or the running is probably the hardest cardio I do know, the latter being shorter but more intense - duirng both my heartrate is significantly raised for blocks of 10-15 minutes at a time, and I get very little or no PEM from it.

Re: the astralagus, I guessed it has some effect on the gut (I think I found something showing this) , since I think most of the effects of alcohol with regard to PEM are mediated through its effect on gut permeability, at least in my case - I came to this conclusion after observing that if I ate a lot of FODMAPs the same day I had a few drinks the PEM would be worse. The astralagus seems to even allow me to eat a bit of gluten without increasing PEM significantly, although I still try to generally stick to the FODMAP diet.

 

[gregh286]

No problem, telling other people about stuff that works for you is what phoenixrising is for, along with sympathy from fellow sufferers. Cardio in the broad sense is the thing I noticed literally within half an hour of taking Chinese skullcap for the first time. I did a kettlebell session, and previously I would have to lie down after each set and do breathing exercises so that I didn't trigger PEM, but this time I didn't feel dangerously out of breath from the same exercises. The boxing or the running is probably the hardest cardio I do know, the latter being shorter but more intense - duirng both my heartrate is significantly raised for blocks of 10-15 minutes at a time, and I get very little or no PEM from it.

Re: the astralagus, I guessed it has some effect on the gut (I think I found something showing this) , since I think most of the effects of alcohol with regard to PEM are mediated through its effect on gut permeability, at least in my case - I came to this conclusion after observing that if I ate a lot of FODMAPs the same day I had a few drinks the PEM would be worse. The astralagus seems to even allow me to eat a bit of gluten without increasing PEM significantly, although I still try to generally stick to the FODMAP diet.

Yes having this almost a decade now I'm almost convinced the gut is leading the.cell danger response sending alarm to Brain and then shutdown by some mechanism.
Histamine response then leads me to lactic legs and heavy body. Now in UK they bloody stopped selling zantac. Often wondered was the sticky blood etc they find some sort of histamine.

I've crashed too many times after food for not to be a relationship. Always bigger reaction in morning too.

 

[Slushiefan]

Thanks for the skullcap suggestion. Running a trial on it right now seems to be helping. It seemed to help from me after the first dose. Hoping this one lasts a little bit.

After having this disease nearly 40 years I hardly care anymore about masking versus Resolution of symptoms. Nothing I seem to too seems to resolve any of the symptoms anyway and I am always on the precipice of bedbound, so I'll settle for some masking.

 

[msf]

I don't think it is masking the symptoms for what it is worth, but it is masking the problem, at least in my opinion. That is, it resolves my lactic acid/PEM symptoms, but if I didn't take it they would come back, so it hasn't solved the underlying cause of those symptoms (which I speculate about in my blog on lactic acid/PEM. I don't think this underlying cause will be pinpointed and have treatments developed for it for some time, though, so I will settle for being symptom-free, or being functionally healthy, as I like to put it.

 

[bensmith]

It's hard to say since everyone has a different severity of symptoms etc, but I think the benefits I get from skullcap are stronger than those you mentioned from reishi and ginseng. I have taken ginseng before without noticing too much of an effecit, and I take BCAAs now, which are effective, but BCAAs help with the DOMS, whereas skullcap has an effect both during and after the exercise: it allows me to do more during the exercise session while staying in the energy state 'safe zone' that does not lead to serious PEM. I did get some PEM yesterday, which is one of the first times I have in over two months of taking skullcap, but I probably did not take enough or just went too hard during the session when I was already quite tired from work etc. As you stated above, 2-9 grams is the usual dose of skullcap in Chinese medicine, so I will play around with the dosing and see what effect this has on exercise.

What is doms?

Tried first dose hour ago. Think it made my iih worse, and pretty hard start up maybe. Maybe helping some cant say. Not sure ill keep going with this one. I am mental pem but def both.

Also never had brain fog but maybe with this iam.

Wont be taking this again, dm me if you are interested in my pouch. Id like to recover some of my investment, like 10 bucks.

 

[Slushiefan]

I have moved from taking a capsule form to the raw herb. This is mostly due to experiencing improvement in my CFS related anxiety, and some improvement otherwise in energy (but that is less tangible atm).

2.3 grams at 1x daily? And indications online are it should be taken before bed - so when do you personally take that? Please confirm - thanks!

 

[bensmith]

Day time. Yes did make me a bit sleepy but not good feeling. Like i felt lead body, generally blah mentally, less energy.

 

[odd_skipper]

@bensmith I actually feel that way when I know something is helping. My cortisol goes down and I’m actually able to “feel” all the stress that my body is under. You know your body more than anyone of course, but maybe that means you’re finally getting rest/healing? I have no clue, just my two cents. I have not tried skull cap yet myself, might give it a whirl tomorrow. I’ll post my experiences for everyone

 

[Vance]

I wanted to point out a possible alternate mechanism of action... baicalin has some antipurigenic effect. That means it has a similar type of action as Suramin, the drug Navaiux talks about as counteracting the Cell Danger Response, and the drug he's planning to use in a study for CFS/ME.

I wasn't the one who dug this factoid up... this guy did. He cites the PubMed study in question. It's just one study, but worth considering.

Further evidence might be the studies people cited earlier in this thread about benefit from baicalin to the mitochondria -- which sit at the heart of the CDR. Perhaps the antipurigenic effect is why.

For those who tried skullcap to no avail,... there could still be a lot of reasons. Like someone pointed out, there are many compounds in herbs; maybe one of the others is making you worse, or even counteracting the antipurigenic effect. There are many purigenic receptors, and this study only calls out one of them for baicalin; maybe some people need others blocked. Or maybe people metabolize baicalin differently. And herbs can be more difficult to get consistent quality.

I've been reading through the CDR this week, and the mechanisms appear to have a complexity and personalization that mirror what we see in CFS/ME from the PME side. Still -- Suramin did manage to reverse the immediate symptoms of autism across a study group.

 

[odd_skipper]

Did anyone experience mild jitteriness from skullcap? I‘ve taken it twice now and it seems like I definitely feel better about 6 or so hours after the fact, but immediately after drinking the tea I get a little wired. I definitely want to avoid that, but it happens sometimes anyway for me and it’s very possible the skullcap has nothing to do with it. Anyone else? (For ref, I got Chinese skullcap root chips and put maybe 6 little pieces in a mug and brewed with boiling water for 15-30 minutes. Maybe I’m using too many root pieces?)

 

[bensmith]

@odd_skipper yeah drop the dosage if that helps.

 

[msf]

I have moved from taking a capsule form to the raw herb. This is mostly due to experiencing improvement in my CFS related anxiety, and some improvement otherwise in energy (but that is less tangible atm).

2.3 grams at 1x daily? And indications online are it should be taken before bed - so when do you personally take that? Please confirm - thanks!

Are you sure you are taking Chinese skullcap, not American skullcap? They are two different plants, with different effects. I take Chinese skullcap before and after exercise, approx 3g 3 times a day.

 

[msf]

Did anyone experience mild jitteriness from skullcap? I‘ve taken it twice now and it seems like I definitely feel better about 6 or so hours after the fact, but immediately after drinking the tea I get a little wired. I definitely want to avoid that, but it happens sometimes anyway for me and it’s very possible the skullcap has nothing to do with it. Anyone else? (For ref, I got Chinese skullcap root chips and put maybe 6 little pieces in a mug and brewed with boiling water for 15-30 minutes. Maybe I’m using too many root pieces?)

That's usually how many I use. I don't get jitteriness, but my neuro ME symptoms were never very significant. Have you noticed any effect on PEM?

 

[msf]

I wanted to point out a possible alternate mechanism of action... baicalin has some antipurigenic effect. That means it has a similar type of action as Suramin, the drug Navaiux talks about as counteracting the Cell Danger Response, and the drug he's planning to use in a study for CFS/ME.

I wasn't the one who dug this factoid up... this guy did. He cites the PubMed study in question. It's just one study, but worth considering.

Further evidence might be the studies people cited earlier in this thread about benefit from baicalin to the mitochondria -- which sit at the heart of the CDR. Perhaps the antipurigenic effect is why.

For those who tried skullcap to no avail,... there could still be a lot of reasons. Like someone pointed out, there are many compounds in herbs; maybe one of the others is making you worse, or even counteracting the antipurigenic effect. There are many purigenic receptors, and this study only calls out one of them for baicalin; maybe some people need others blocked. Or maybe people metabolize baicalin differently. And herbs can be more difficult to get consistent quality.

I've been reading through the CDR this week, and the mechanisms appear to have a complexity and personalization that mirror what we see in CFS/ME from the PME side. Still -- Suramin did manage to reverse the immediate symptoms of autism across a study group.

Interesting, but I think I favour my theory, given that ALA and DCA also had an effect on PEM. Of course, it could be working in both ways simultaneously.

 

[Hip]

One seller on AliExpress (a sort of Chinese eBay) sells 250 mg of 98% baicalin powder for $30. This is much cheaper than the LiftMode 95% baicalin powder, which costs $30 for 50 grams.

Did I mention that baicalin restores the infection-triggered decrease in mitochondrial complex V ? Ref: 1

 

[msf]

One seller on AliExpress (a sort of Chinese eBay) sells 250 mg of 98% baicalin powder for $30. This is much cheaper than the LiftMode 95% baicalin powder, which costs $30 for 50 grams.

Did I mention that baicalin restores the infection-triggered decrease in mitochondrial complex V ? Ref: 1

Umm, not sure, but I already did at the beginning of this thread. That was one of the main studies that encouraged me to experiment with skullcap in the first place.

 

[Hip]

Umm, not sure, but I already did at the beginning of this thread, haha.

Ah right, maybe that's where I originally saw it! I made a note of it in my baicalin folder on my computer.

 

[msf]

Haha, no problem, I'm glad that I've contributed in a small way to your encyclopedic knowledge of ME and possible treatments.

 

[Hip]

Haha, no problem, I'm glad that I've contributed in a small way to your encyclopedic knowledge of ME and possible treatments.

I know next to nothing, memory like a sieve!

But my 2.3 GHz Mac Mini computer is a veritable expert on ME/CFS matters! I merely transcribe what it knows!

 

[godlovesatrier]

Not sure if anyone posted this but in 2018 I had great success with an alc tincture tonic 3x a day of the following:

Red Root
Houttuynia Cordata
Lomatium Dissectum
Milk Thistle
Dandelion Seed
Chinese Skullcap
Ionic Magnesium

Isatis for about 3 weeks.

For the first 6 weeks I also took grated fennel and effervescent milk thistle tablets with a much higher silymarin content.

2.5ml of each every day and 1ml of milk thistle and dandelion seed to prevent urea irritation.

and this study I just found was for astragalus root but I thought it was interesting considering how well you've done:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19702080/

Reads like there decoction is in water too but hard to tell.

--

I never posted the above tonic anywhere because it wasn't a cure, but I did get a 1-2 level gain out of it. Most of my symptoms lifted 2 weeks after I started the above tonic. The effects worked until I took oxymatrine looking for a cure and then I lost all the benefits. These days the tonic tends to give me an energy boost after the initial on boarding period, which varies. Sadly due to some dental issues and stripping my enamel when I drink it, I have not really been able to experiment over the last 12 months. Once the dentist has extracted some teeth i should be good to go I hope.