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Carnivore Diet

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
This topic is for offering support and sharing experiences for people with ME/CFIDS who have tried or are currently on a Carnivore diet. This thread is not for debating the merits of the Carnivore diet. Please refrain from doing so.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
My first question asking those who are long term Carnivore dieters, what supplements, if any, do you take? I am just starting out and am using a digestive enzyme before meals.

Also, did your medications interfere or were they not relevant on your Carnivore journey?

And finally, how long did it take to go into ketosis? I am only on day four; caved yesterday and ate popcorn. I suspect that this is because I had grapes, because even after supper I got really hungry.
 

skwag

Senior Member
Messages
222
Hi @belize44

I've been carnivore for about two years now.

I used to take quite a few supplements, but now only take a few.
  • Copper - this helps quite a bit with histamine intolerance.
  • Vitamin D/K - Don't notice anything here, just trying to not get sick.
  • Magnesium - I only take a very small amount of mag sulfate when I start getting cramps. I'm talking about the amount you might find in a mineral water. Usually a couple times a week.
I'm not on any meds, so no concern there.

I did keto before carnivore, but I don't remember how long it took hit ketosis.

Are you jumping straight into Carnivore from a normal type of diet with plentiful carbs? If so, I think that is a pretty tough path. I think it is much easier to transition to a keto diet first, with all tasty goodies that come with that. Once you are comfortable there, you can start cutting out everything but animal products.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
@skwag; I think you may be right. I have been really suffering these past few days, and wondered a few times if I had jumped in too fast. I tried having a bit of Basmati rice with my meat but it triggered carb cravings.

Thanks for sharing the information!
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
As I discussed in this post, I've seen significant progress with a keto diet (perhaps 80% carnivore).

As for supplements, since I changed my diet I added the following diet-related supplements:
  • Carnitine (2g a day). We need carnitine to burn fat, and I have more energy if I take this.
  • Potassium (1-3 teaspoons potassium citrate a day). Some keto specialists warn about getting enough potassium, and I get cramps if I don't add potassium.
  • Betain HCL. My stomach acid is fairly low after taking PPIs for many years, so I take a few pills of those with every protein heavy meal.
  • For constipation I'll add plenty of magnesium citrate and apple cider vinegar. (I do have to take opioids for restless legs, which cause constipation. Most people on carnivore have no trouble with constipation though.)
Independent of diet I add several B vitamins (B1, B5, B6, B9/folate, B12), D3, K2, E. Some minerals (magnesium, zinc, copper, manganese, chromium) too, alpha-lipoic acid and taurine. For omega-3 I take fresh organic flaxseed oil, 20-30ml every other day. Some of these supplements because I was either diagnosed with a deficiency, or because they helped me significantly in the past. I do have pyrroluria, and several of these supplements are supposed to treat it.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
I had started using Energenesis until I realized that my joint pain had worsened. I was like Oxalates! Duh! Unfortunately there is cacao in this preparation. Overall, it was really helping but it isn't fair to increase energy at the expense of more pain.

I have experienced the cramping so now I know to take more Potassium. I have taken PPIs for years, too, so I will look into this. Thanks!
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
I had started using Energenesis until I realized that my joint pain had worsened. I was like Oxalates! Duh! Unfortunately there is cacao in this preparation. Overall, it was really helping but it isn't fair to increase energy at the expense of more pain.

I have experienced the cramping so now I know to take more Potassium. I have taken PPIs for years, too, so I will look into this. Thanks!

If you suffer from oxalate dump, you might be in for a few nasty weeks :(
If a small dose of oxalate rich food helps (say a few pieces of chocolate with 85% cacao or more, which is fairly ketogenic), your symptoms come from an oxalate dump. In this case it might be best to slowly taper oxalates. Some sufferers report that the symptoms in the dump were too bad, and they had to slowly reduce oxalates in their diet. But if you can stand it, quitting oxalates cold turkey (like Carnivore) is the fastest way. Google for Sally Norton, she has excellent advise on oxalates on her web page.

I do blame PPIs for part of my symptoms, but that's a long story. Getting rid of them can be cumbersome. I wrote a thread on this a while ago: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/getting-rid-of-ppis-acid-blockers.79019/
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
I had also noticed, before I started Carnivore, that in my quest to eliminate gluten I had baked some almond flour cookies. I had a severe increase in shoulder and knee pain after consuming them. I have actually quit oxalates cold turkey without planning too! I took PPIs for about a week, after quitting them permanently due to Prednisone upsetting my stomach. Now I will avoid them again, after reading your post on them.
 

drmullin30

Senior Member
Messages
217
Hi @belize44, I've been keto and low oxalate now for several months. I eat "mostly meat" and eggs but I'm not full carnivore yet more like strict paleo/keto.

I'm now on my 21st week of oxalate dumping and it's finally starting to slow down but it hasn't been fun. I have passed kidney stones as well since going low oxalate but I have noticed incredible benefits in mood, energy, joint pain and cognition. I have a major problem with them (I wish I had learned about them sooner) and several SNPs in that pathway. Oxalates seem to have been a major contributor to my illness.

I agree with @skwag. Jumping strait to carnivore from a standard diet is pure misery. Between the carb flu, oxalate dumping and other toxin dumping, you're likely to have a lot of symptoms.

I started by eliminating alcohol, grains and sugar first, then dairy, then nuts, then potatoes and high oxalate veggies, and now fruit. I'm not quite fully off of fruit. I love apples, cherries, pineapple, bananas and blueberries but I'm getting there. I try to keep it to one or two servings per day to stay in keto. It's been a relatively easy transition diet wise except for the oxalate dumping. Each elimination stage lasted several weeks to a couple of months.

This is a very good article on oxalates and how roundup (eliminated in carnivore diet) makes it worse. It talks about oxalates and their effect on methylation, yeast etc. https://www.realizehealth.com.au/2015/12/18/oxalates-yeast-and-mitochondrial-dysfunction/
 
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belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
Well, this is frustrating I haven't lost any weight yet, and its been ten days. I have had small amounts of carbs here and there, (sweet potatoes or rice) but didn't think it would make that much of a difference. I was only in full ketosis for one day!
 

drmullin30

Senior Member
Messages
217
Sometimes for a stubborn metabolism you have to keep the carbs extremely low, less than 20 g per day for a few weeks. That certainly rules out any rice or sweet potatoes. Either of those foods will knock you out of ketosis pretty quick unless you're eating thimblefuls.

To really speed up the process, you can combine ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and that will get you into ketosis really fast.
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
Sometimes for a stubborn metabolism you have to keep the carbs extremely low, less than 20 g per day for a few weeks. That certainly rules out any rice or sweet potatoes. Either of those foods will knock you out of ketosis pretty quick unless you're eating thimblefuls.

To really speed up the process, you can combine ketogenic diet with intermittent fasting and that will get you into ketosis really fast.
I'll keep that in mind, thanks! The only reason I ate some carbs was because instead of feeling energetic during meat only meals, I was getting really tired. I have some homemade electrolyte water now, and that seems to help. If my BP raises too much, I drink the electrolyte water and if it drops too low, I have salt water only.
 

Frunobulax

Senior Member
Messages
134
I'll keep that in mind, thanks! The only reason I ate some carbs was because instead of feeling energetic during meat only meals, I was getting really tired. I have some homemade electrolyte water now, and that seems to help. If my BP raises too much, I drink the electrolyte water and if it drops too low, I have salt water only.

This is most likely traditional Keto flu. Your body needs to adapt to fat burning (again, as a child you were perfectly able to do so). Any amount of fast digestible (net) carbs will prolong this process, or might stop ketosis for days. You'll feel better for the moment, but keto flu might last longer. And do make sure that you're eating only if you're hungry. You do need to kickstart ketosis to adapt to fat -- if Carnivore doesn't work well enough, fasting a few days should do the trick.

Are you getting tired after meals that are basically fat only? Say a bulletproof coffee with plenty of butter or coconut oil. There are a couple of things that can go wrong when eating protein. The word is "can", not "will", I'd assume only a minority is affected. But still...
  • For some people, the liver will convert a lot of protein into carbs and/or insulin will raise whenever they eat protein. Those people have to limit their protein, because it works a bit like sugar. The exact process is unknown, but it is a side effect of insulin resistance. (This should stop if you eat keto long enough. But it could take a while.) Ben Bikman talks about this. But if you feel fatigued after a meal, you could have an Insulin spike.
    If this was the case for you, it might be better to transition to moderate-protein Keto first (it's much easier to limit protein on Keto than on Carnivore). After a few months you should be fine and be able to transition to Carnivore, hopefully.
  • Some people can't handle a lot of protein for a different reason: Kidney trouble. Kidney function improves noticably on Keto, but it may take a while. Same solution.
  • I think I wrote this a while ago, but not sure in which thread. If you don't have enough stomach acid you won't be able to digest protein properly. Betain HCL helps with that. There is a DIY test for lack of stomach acid.
  • Histamine intolerance might be a thing, and you could even react to preservatives. I don't think there is any issue with fat, but some meats are on the high histamine list I think. Do you prepare all your meat fresh, or do you consume food that was made lasting (bacon, sausages etc.)? If the latter, does it make a difference if you leave them out for a while? (I'll have to admit that I know little about histamine intolerance, better google this to make sure. I might be wrong.)
If I was in your place I'd to stick to Carnivore for at least 2 more weeks, and limit net carbs to 20g a day at most. However, if your issues haven't resolved themselves or they become to bad in the next days, there is another road: Go low carb (not keto) for up to 2 months. Do eat some carbs, but preferrably only once or twice a day and not more than 100g unrefined carbs (rice, potatos or legumes) a day. In fact that's what I did (simply because I didn't know about keto at the time), and I had no keto flu at all! For some people this will already train the body to use fat as fuel again, and after this phase it might be easier to transition to Carnivore. As long as you don't return to 300+ grams of refined carbs a day, your progress is not wasted.

Don't worry about weight loss or gain. Some people even gain weight on Carnivore (or Keto) for the first few weeks or even months. This often comes from muscle buildup, which is a good thing and offsets the loss of water and fat. Or you might get some nutrients that you were lacking before. Eventually, weight loss will come (for those who have weight to lose).
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
I will have to look into this histamine concept. I do eat bacon and smoked sausage. All meat is prepared fresh, as much as possible with the exceptions of leftovers now and then. I will try the baking soda test tomorrow morning, as well; curious to find out because I was on PPIs for years. Thank you for this very useful post! I'll see how the next two weeks play out.
 

HABS93

Senior Member
Messages
485
I'm not getting crystals coming out of places but I think my body is in the dumping phase. I've been so drained since quitting spinach(Oxalates). I let my diet get out of hand in October(Thanksgiving , my bday , visiting family/ friends) . I was eating veggies and meat for months. I'm going to try carnivore diet but I ain't eating liver .
 

belize44

Senior Member
Messages
1,662
I'm not getting crystals coming out of places but I think my body is in the dumping phase. I've been so drained since quitting spinach(Oxalates). I let my diet get out of hand in October(Thanksgiving , my bday , visiting family/ friends) . I was eating veggies and meat for months. I'm going to try carnivore diet but I ain't eating liver .
Can't blame you for avoiding liver, lol. I used to hate it, but feel an odd fondness for it now!