• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To register, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Bacillus subtilis probiotic may eliminate Staphylococcus from the gut and the nasopharynx

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
Still feeling bad. Still trying to figure out what it is. But to be honest I felt very stable 3 days prior to taking this really. Just taking out some other things from my regime to make sure it's the probiotic.

But I feel mainly hypoglycemic all day like my blood sugars very low as I feel a bit cold, brainfogged and generally off. But thismorning after my initial dose o felt fine. Then I took my tablets and went downhill. So no idea what's going on. Could be an interaction of some sort of microbiome imbalance. My gut symptoms have gone just got foggy symptoms and these hypoglycemic symptoms. It's pretty bad. Fatigues ok tho.
 

JES

Senior Member
Messages
1,318
The soil-based probiotics are quite a bit tougher to handle in my experience than typical lactic acid ones for example. The dosages are also determined for mostly healthy people. I generally start a new supplement at 1/2 or 1/4th dose to be more on the safe side and I noticed over the years I respond more negatively and having to lower the dosage further, especially with things like probiotics.

With ME/CFS, I reckon our immune system dysfunction could have a major impact on how our body can handle even bacteria that are typically considered benign. Some probiotics are not recommended for people with specific immune deficiencies or those taking immune suppressants. Unless our immune system responds "correctly", in which case probiotics typically benefit us, there is some risk of colonization and pathogenic growth. This is not so much a problem with lactic acid bacteria as they don't colonize with a few exceptions.

I guess this is just to say that feeling worse on probiotics is not that unusual. I never got past the "immune stimulatory" phase when taking certain probiotics.
 

BrightCandle

Senior Member
Messages
1,133
I am feeling pretty rough since I started this as well. Just really run down and tired, spending a lot more time back in bed after the rapid improvement with the Russian Lysate nasal spray. Thing is I have taken some amount of a different variant of this species with Bio Kult before (Their "Mind" product) so I am surprised its knocking me back.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
It is very immune stimulating. My wrist began to hurt like something else yesterday when putting pressure on it. I've never injured my wrist and it's normally fine. The only other time this happened was after az vaccine no 1 or 2 I forget which. So it's obviously very immune stimulating.

This will be my second day not taking any. One thing to note tho last night I went for a walk but I didn't take anything to buffer or block PEM and thismorning apart from feeling a bit rough the fatigue isn't that bad. Which is odd.

I'm still tossing and turning all night and I've still got gunk in my throat when swallowing. My hope is that the effects will be positive and then pass so as not to cause a permanent worsening of symptoms. I might have felt a bit better yesterday but I did take two doses of oat bran to try and get by. I also took two doses of sodium benzoate to attempt to control the weird crashy hypoglycemic episodes. So maybe this did help.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
Yes forgot to add that they do release histamine which is bad for many. I guess I've just got to hope it dies off or gets crowded out. Took about 7 to 10 days for me to recover from the crash kefir induced but that crash was way way worse than this is.

Sodium benzoate doesn't kill bacillus according to the pubmed studies. Hopefully I'll feel better over the weekend.

Tiredness is a huge factor I feel very tired compared to normal.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
Well solaray 24 and Dr mercola complete probiotics and vitomixx (the original vsl3 formula) don't have any negative effects for me. Which makes sense as they don't promote histamine and they repopulate bacteria that don't spore and that are extemeelt low not just in myself but in all ME patients.

Makes sense it would be a bit of a diffferent ballgame with the sporing kinds.

At the same time it feels like healthy people wouldn't get this weird reaction. But then again they may not have had as much antibiotics or infections as we have. Which loops back round to immune deficiency.

On the ebv thread there is a discussion there about acquired immune deficiency from ebv and it's effects on the immune system. Which I found really fascinating.

Interestingly I found a study which seems to show that andrographolide knocks out bacillus subtillis.
 
Last edited:

splusholia

Senior Member
Messages
239
I am feeling pretty rough since I started this as well. Just really run down and tired, spending a lot more time back in bed after the rapid improvement with the Russian Lysate nasal spray. Thing is I have taken some amount of a different variant of this species with Bio Kult before (Their "Mind" product) so I am surprised its knocking me back.

Where did you get the nasal spray from?
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
Just found out that Biokult's main probiotic has the same bacillus bacteria in it - biokult started to give me a raised temperature and made me feel really rough when I took it over teh last 2 years, never really got any benefit out of it either. The only bacteria in Biokult that is different to solaray and dr mercola which I've been taking without issue for about a year, is the bacillus so it seems a certainty that this is the issue really.

But I did make a full recovery from it which is nice to know. Physically I feel ok today but brainfog still pretty bad.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
Messages
2,500
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks for that. To be fair I think in another 3 days assuming I don't get any hypoglycemic symptoms from my egcg I should be too. I was taking egcg for 2 weeks prior to that with zero issues in fact I was almost at 80% again, whereas I am at a brainfogged 75% now.

Anyway I guess that means it's passing, I was worried that the spore forming potential meant it would take weeks or longer to go away!!
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,790
After taking the Bacillus subtilis probiotic for some weeks, I want to revisit the Prof Gottfries Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine treatment of ME/CFS (detailed in this post).

Using a Russian version of this Staphylococcus vaccine, back in 2017 I achieved near remission for 3 weeks, which was spectacular; but then at the end of the 3 weeks, the Russian vaccine stopped working for me (even though I continued to inject it every 10 days).

So I am wondering whether clearing some of the Staphylococcus from my gut and nasopharynx with this probiotic will then make the Staphylococcus vaccine work for me again. So in a few weeks, I will inject the Russian Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (I still have some stock in my fridge), and see what happens.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,926
I looked back at an old test I did in 2011, and yes I am carrier for Staphylococcus aureus in my nasopharynx.

Approximately at the time my ME/CFS/FIBRO went worse, 20 years ago, I started chronic rhinitis on a low grade, still here now...
 

Bansaw

Senior Member
Messages
521
Can anyone recommend a brand of NattoKinase ?
My doctor mentioned NuMedics, but have you found another good quality brand?
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,003
I've used the Doctor's Best products mostly I think - a nattokinase, and a natto-serra combo. Seems like a good brand, although I think they were acquired and some people don't like them as much anymore.
 
Messages
31
After taking the Bacillus subtilis probiotic for some weeks, I want to revisit the Prof Gottfries Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine treatment of ME/CFS (detailed in this post).

Using a Russian version of this Staphylococcus vaccine, back in 2017 I achieved near remission for 3 weeks, which was spectacular; but then at the end of the 3 weeks, the Russian vaccine stopped working for me (even though I continued to inject it every 10 days).

So I am wondering whether clearing some of the Staphylococcus from my gut and nasopharynx with this probiotic will then make the Staphylococcus vaccine work for me again. So in a few weeks, I will inject the Russian Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine (I still have some stock in my fridge), and see what happens.

what would be the point of that?
if vax works against staph it would be already not needed because the clearance coming from probiotic
if vax works by any other mechanism f.e. immunomodulation, the presence of the staph makes no difference then

not to be negative or smthing, just curious
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,790
what would be the point of that?
if vax works against staph it would be already not needed because the clearance coming from probiotic
if vax works by any other mechanism f.e. immunomodulation, the presence of the staph makes no difference then

not to be negative or smthing, just curious

I speculate that the negative mental health side effects I experienced from both Dr Markov's Staphylococcus vaccine, and the Russian Medgamal Staphylococcus toxoid vaccine, may be due to large reservoirs of Staphylococcus in my gut and nasopharynx, which then makes the immune response triggered by the vaccines too fierce.

Indeed, if you happen to have an active Staphylococcus infection somewhere in your body, taking the full dose of a Staphylococcus vaccine can actually provoke a very fierce immune response which can be dangerous (that's why the vaccine instructions say to start on very small vaccine doses to begin with, and titrate up).

My stool analysis showed I have Staphylococcus in my gut, so then when I take the Staphylococcus vaccine, presumably I will get a strong immune response all along the gut lining, which may be causing the mental health side effects.


If Bacillus subtilis clears out (or at least greatly reduces) Staphylococcus from my gut and nasopharynx, then hopefully I should be able to take the Staphylococcus vaccines without these side effects.

There may still be other reservoirs of Staphylococcus in my body, but these are likely to be much smaller that the gut and nasopharynx reservoirs, so the immune response provoked by the vaccine should be smaller.

So the vaccine may then target these smaller reservoirs without causing me any side effects.
 

perchance dreamer

Senior Member
Messages
1,685
@Hip
What do you think about Manuka honey nose spray, would it work to fight staphylococcus?

Treatment of Atrophic Rhinitis with Manuka Honey

2841c146-35b3-4f92-a3a4-3fcb5027b63c.pdf (researchsquare.com)

I tried a Manuka honey nose spray, and it made my nose really stuff, which probably means it introduced inflammation. I had the same response to colloidal silver nose spray, grapefruit extract nose spray, and oregano nose spray. I had tried these sprays to combat sinus infections. I do, however, have an exceedingly sensitive nose and sinuses, so these sprays might be fine for other people.