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Bacillus subtilis probiotic may eliminate Staphylococcus from the gut and the nasopharynx

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
Research in Thailand found that people with the Bacillus bacterium in their gut never seem to have Staphylococcus in their intestines or nasopharynx.

Thai researchers tested 200 healthy people, and they found that when Bacillus was present in their gut, then Staphylococcus was always absent. So it seems that these two bacteria cannot exist together.

The researchers think this because many Bacillus bacteria secrete substances called fengycins which disrupt the Staphylococcus life cycle, and so kill off the Staphylococcus.

Article: here
Study: here



The study indicates that taking a Bacillus probiotic might be able to eliminate Staphylococcus from the gut and nose. To quote the study:
Bacillus-containing probiotics may be used for simple and safe S. aureus decolonization strategies.

In that regard, it is particularly noteworthy that our human data indicate that probiotic Bacillus can comprehensively eradicate intestinal as well as nasal S. aureus colonization.

EDIT: the latest 2023 study here indeed demonstrates that taking the Bacillus MB40 probiotic reduces greatly Staphylococcus populations in the gut and nose.


So over the last two weeks or so, I've been taking Bacillus subtilis as a probiotic, as well as spraying a solution of Bacillus subtilis into my nose (the latter is possibly risky, although a Bacillus bacteria nasal spray was tested in a human study).

So far with my Bacillus probiotic treatments, my IBS seems to have improved, and I think my energy levels are increasing a little.



I have Staphylococcus in my gut, as tested by a Genova Diagnostics stool analysis, so potentially I may have Staphylococcus issues involved with my ME/CFS.

Prof Gottfries's great success in treating ME/CFS using a Staphylococcus vaccine (see this post) suggests that Staphylococcus may be driving ME/CFS in many patients.




I bought the SuperSmart Bacillus subtilis probiotic from Amazon.

You also obtain a Bacillus coagulans probiotic. And some Bacillus probiotic products contain both Bacillus subtilis and Bacillus coagulans together.

Note that Bacillus subtilis is a spore-forming bacterium, so is hardier than your average probiotic.

To make my Bacillus subtilis probiotic more effective, I dipped the capsules into a shellac solution, applying 3 coats of shellac to the outside of the capsules. Shellac is acid resistant, and this coating is used in the pharma industry to make enteric capsule (capsules able to survive stomach acids).

Shellac solution can be easily bought as a confectionary glaze (it is used to make food items like chocolate shiny).



Bacillus subtilis Probiotic Sources

IMPORTANT UPDATE 2023
: the follow up study in 2023 found that most commercial Bacillus subtilis probiotics do not produce fengycins, so will not be able to fight Staphylococcus. I don't think the SuperSmart brand I bought is able to synthesise fengycins.

Apparently one of the only commercially available Bacillus subtilis probiotics which do produce fengycins is the Microbiome Labs brand (also here for £54), which contains the HU58 strain of Bacillus subtilis. This has 60 capsules at 5 billion CFU of HU58. See this post for more details.

The Youth & Earth Spore Probiotic seems good value: £33 for 60 capsules, and one capsule contains 4 billion Bacillus subtilis HU58.

The follow up study gave people a strain of Bacillus subtilis called MB40 (aka: ATCC122264), and after 30 of taking this probiotic at 10 billion CFU daily, observed a 96·8% reduction of Staphylococcus aureus in the stool, and a 65·4% reduction in the nose.

The study used the commercial product OPTI-BIOME Bacillus subtilis MB40. This appears to be found within the BacilloSpore Select probiotic, $50 for 100 capsules of 1.5 billion CFU. See also in the UK for £50 here. Some other sources in this post.

The Ameo Life probiotic contains Bacillus subtilis MB40, 60 capsules for $40. But it is not clear how much. Each capsule contains 7.5 billion CFU, of Bacillus subtilis MB40 + Bacillus coagulans.


Note that the BS50 strain of Bacillus subtilis also appears to secrete fengycin, according this study:
a few secondary metabolites (e.g., bacillibactin and fengycin) that are synthesized by non-ribosomal peptide synthases (NRPS) were predicted to be produced by BS50
 
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Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
It looks like you can make yoghurt from it Super gut style (so you can just open up the capsule and put it in milk), 45C for 12 hours. https://actascientific.com/ASNH/pdf/ASNH-03-0297.pdf for the process I found for making it.

I looked into making my own probiotics with a yogurt maker some years ago, with the idea of saving money.

Unfortunately it turns out that the amount of bacteria you grow in yogurt is not that great, about 10 million CFU per ml. So that is about 1 billion CFU in 100 ml of yogurt.

Given that high dose probiotic capsules can be 10 billion CFU or higher, yogurt is not going to complete with such capsules.

Though possibly there may be ways of increasing the bacteria count during the yogurt production.
 

BrightCandle

Senior Member
Messages
1,162
I looked into making my own probiotics with a yogurt maker some years ago, with the idea of saving money.

Unfortunately it turns out that the amount of bacteria you grow in yogurt is not that great, about 10 million CFU per ml. So that is about 1 billion CFU in 100 ml of yogurt.

Given that high dose probiotic capsules can be 10 billion CFU or higher, yogurt is not going to complete with such capsules.

Though possibly there may be ways of increasing the bacteria count during the yogurt production.

You can go a lot more than that, the Super Yoghurt approach gets you to about 250 billion for 100ml or so. In terms of dosage you can really ramp it by allowing it to go longer and giving them more sugars to eat on like adding a teaspoon of Inulin. The end result is usually quite acidic compared to typical yoghurt but you can make a lot of bacteria with a yoghurt maker and milk and a bit of inulin and 1.5 days of growth.
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
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2,569
Location
United Kingdom
Bought some.

My gut is currently stable but since I took abx two weeks ago and then drank some kefir I've gone from 75/80% to 70% and my gut feels ok now but I'm weak and I feel off. Relying on oat bran to clear my gut and rebalance it. This should help. Thanks!
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,180
That's really interesting. I looked at bacillus subtilis a few years ago I think when looking at its success in treating acute dysentery. Can't remember why I didn't try it - I think there were fewer products on the market. I've liked SuperSmart's other products so I may try this and see if it improves my PEM-related reflux.
 

BrightCandle

Senior Member
Messages
1,162
Sounds very interesting. Would you have any links to recipes or methods of making this souped up yogurt?

The book the approach comes from is called Super Gut. Its a bit more than just the recipe because its got details for how to grow a variety of bacteria species that are good for our gut and what they are known to do for us.

You need a yoghurt maker capable of setting temperature (and time). The homcom yoghurt maker is about the cheapest that does this.

You also need inulin, 1 litre of whole milk and your probiotic.

1 Capsule of the probiotic, get it grains or powder. This is probably a capsule so likely already in grains but some of them come as pills and you have to crush them.

Into a bowl goes 1 litre of whole milk, mix in about 4 teaspoons of inulin gradually and break up any clumps and then mix in the probiotic. Then put in the yoghurt maker and the right temperature and time.

Then after you have eaten one a day after 7 days you'll have one pot remaining and you take its contents and throw a teaspoon or so into each pot and a bit of inulin and milk and mix it and regrow.

What likely happens is it splits, probably around 24 hours. In my experience this happens the first few times from coming from capsule but a few batches later it should improve. If it doesn't improve after a few generations I have found with some of the bacteria I have tried 24 hours is about that split point even without inulin. There is a bit of trial and error to try and make something that is "nice" to eat but is also about as acidic as you can stand texture wise. Award winning yoghurt this is not, I think technically calling it yoghurt in the EU and UK is not allowed as we aren't using the right bacteria, so I think its more fermented milk. The split product is perfectly safe to eat (drink) its just unpleasant and I tend these days to choose right on the point where its splitting a bit but with less bacteria just to stay sane.

Hope that helps.


PS I have been treating my S. Aureus and others again this past week with one of the Russian Lysates (IPC 19), rapid improvement in my condition again just like last time so there is definitely something to dealing with bad bacteria in my body too.
 

BrightCandle

Senior Member
Messages
1,162
This is what the Super gut yoghurt looks like when its right on that point, this is B Coagulans (Digestive Advantage), L. Reuteri (BioGaia Gastrus) and L. Gasseri.
Super Gut Yoghurt.jpg
 

godlovesatrier

Senior Member
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2,569
Location
United Kingdom
https://cfsremission.com/2016/02/01/staphylococcus-aureus-the-cfs-maintainer/

This articles interesting. Looks like I've misread it slightly because Ken is saying that staph levels can actually stop people from getting better with regards to their ME:

"My last two posts resulted from happenstance! While looking at vaccines as a possible trigger for CFS or CFS-like symptoms, I stumbled across a vaccine that resulted in significant remission for many CFS patients – a Staphylococcus aureus vaccine. Prior to this, I had been ping earlier in the week to investigate Protandim, a patented herb mixture which appears to result in major improvement/remission for several months and then stopped working. While investigating the individual herbs, I saw some were effective against staphylococcus aureus. I repeated my research for this specific bacteria and found they were particularly effective against staphylococcus aureus. "

But I am not sure how much of a reach that is based on the anecdotal vaccine stories. Even so looking forward to trying it.

Sadly Staphlococcus didn't appear on my 16s data, I've tagged Ken about that to ask him if he knows why. Ok so as it turns out Ken has a page on microbiome prescription about Staphlococcus:

https://microbiomeprescription.com/...name=Staphylococcus aureus (1.73% of Samples)

But it's mainly for machine learning, so even more puzzled why my 16s doesn't have it.
 

hapl808

Senior Member
Messages
2,180
I also wonder about making foods like natto. I take nattokinase for better circulation and biofilms, but that loses out on the probiotic nature of natto which I think is one of the few probiotic foods that's made with bacillus subtilis. I've never tried to make it, but might look into it.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
There is a bit of trial and error to try and make something that is "nice" to eat but is also about as acidic as you can stand texture wise. Award winning yoghurt this is not,

Very interesting. So inulin is really the key ingredient that increases bacterial numbers.

I did experiment with making the Swedish filmjolk yogurt drink (it is runny enough to drink) detailed on this thread. The flavour is lovely, but I can't say it did anything beneficial for my health.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
@Hip Thank you—this looks brilliant. Here is the link to US Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/SUPERSMART-Lactobacillus-Probiotic-Infection-Capsules/dp/B01G7DKJGS

I have been using Nasobiotex (L Sakei) on the inside of my nose and it works but only when used infrequently, like once every 10 days. This looks like it gets more to the root of the problem.

I think Bacillus subtilis is a strong probiotic in its own right, being spore-forming (so I think it would be classed as a soil-based probiotics). But the fact that it appears antagonistic to Staphylococcus might make it useful as a nasal probiotic, since Staphylococcus tends to colonise the nasopharynx.

When making my own nasal spray by dissolving a Bacillus subtilis capsule into some saline solution, I was concerned that because this is a potent spore-forming bacterium, it might lead to an infection.

However, the fact that a study using a Bacillus spore nasal spray in kids found no adverse effects put my mind a rest a bit. But I am not entirely sure that spraying Bacillus subtilis into your nose is safe.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
@Hip
What do you think about Manuka honey nose spray, would it work to fight staphylococcus?

Treatment of Atrophic Rhinitis with Manuka Honey

2841c146-35b3-4f92-a3a4-3fcb5027b63c.pdf (researchsquare.com)

It might be interesting to try.

I was also considering experimenting with a chlorine dioxide solution in my nose, as 100 ppm completely kills all MRSA Staphylococcus in 15 seconds. Ref: here. Now 100 ppm of chlorine dioxide may be safe as a nasal spray, since chlorine dioxide mouthwashes like Freshen contain 1,000 ppm of chlorine dioxide.



However, with an antibacterial chemical approach, the bacteria can always grow back. The advantage of the Bacillus subtilis approach is that you are using a living organism to kill the Staphylococcus, and provided the Bacillus subtilis remains in your gut and nose, it may prevent the Staphylococcus from ever returning.
 

Hufsamor

Senior Member
Messages
2,788
Location
Norway
Out of stock.
I’ve added to my wish -list.
Do I get a reminder on my email when it gets available?
Or do I have to check on my Amazon account every now and then?

@Hip

Have your mental health been affected by the bacillus in any way?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,976
Have your mental health been affected by the bacillus in any way?

The Bacillus subtilis probiotic has not had any adverse affects on my mental health at all, which is good; but I seem to have a little more energy and perhaps less brain fog after starting this probiotic about 2 weeks ago.

However, it's hard to be sure, because ever since getting COVID 4 months ago, I've been a lot more tired and brain fogged, and there has also been quite a variation in tiredness from day to day, so some days I think I am getting better, and recovering from the long COVID addition to my ME/CFS, but then the next day I go back to becoming very tired again.
 
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