Bacillus subtilis probiotic may eliminate Staphylococcus from the gut and the nasopharynx

[serafim]

Research in Thailand found that people with the Bacillus bacterium in their gut never seem to have Staphylococcus in their intestines or nasopharynx.

Thai researchers tested 200 healthy people, and they found that when Bacillus was present in their gut, then Staphylococcus was always absent. So it seems that these two bacteria cannot exist together.

The researchers think this because Bacillus bacteria secrete substances called fengycins which disrupt the Staphylococcus life cycle, and so kill off the Staphylococcus.

Article: here
Study: here



The study indicates that taking a Bacillus probiotic might be able to eliminate Staphylococcus from the gut and nose. To quote the study:




So over the last two weeks or so, I've been taking Bacillus subtilis as a probiotic, as well as spraying a solution of Bacillus subtilis into my nose (the latter is possibly risky, although a Bacillus bacteria nasal spray was tested in a human study).

So far with my Bacillus probiotic treatments, my IBS seems to have improved, and I think my energy levels are increasing a little.


I have Staphylococcus in my gut, as tested by a Genova Diagnostics stool analysis, so potentially I may have Staphylococcus issues involved with my ME/CFS.

Prof Gottfries's great success in treating ME/CFS using a Staphylococcus vaccine (see this post) suggests that Staphylococcus may be driving ME/CFS in many patients.




I bought the SuperSmart Bacillus subtilis probiotic from Amazon.

You also obtain a Bacillus coagulans probiotic. And some Bacillus probiotic products contain both Bacillus subtilis and Bacillus coagulans together.

Note that Bacillus subtilis is a spore-forming bacterium, so is hardier than your average probiotic.



To make my Bacillus subtilis probiotic more effective, I dipped the capsules into a shellac solution, applying 3 coats of shellac to the outside of the capsules. Shellac is acid resistant, and this coating is used in the pharma industry to make enteric capsule (capsules able to survive stomach acids).

Shellac solution can be easily bought as a confectionary glaze (it is used to make food items like chocolate shiny).

was there any mention of the exact strain of B. subtilis that they tested? i couldn’t find it. not every strain of B. subtilis produces fengycin

 

[Hip]

was there any mention of the exact strain of B. subtilis that they tested?

Presumably multiple strains, from the 200 people whose gut microbiomes they tested.

 

[Atlas]

@serafim

In the 2018 study linked by @Hip in the OP, the reference strain was ZK3814. This was the strain they tested as a probiotic on the mice and used in the in vitro testing. It doesn't appear to be commercially available.

In the follow-up 2023 study linked by @splusholia where the probiotic was tested on humans, the used strain was MB40. That strain was chosen because of its high fengycin production.

30 days of 10billion CFU "resulted in significant reduction of S aureus in stool (96·8%; p<0·0001) and nose (65·4%; p=0·0002)."

According to the 2023 study, many commercially available strains of Bacillus subtilis don't contain the necessary fengycins to inhibit Staphylococcus aureus. This despite the fact that strains found naturally in the people from the first study did typically contain those fengycins.

(See the discussion on page 5 of this thread - another commercially available strain which apparently has the required fengycins is HU58)

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(22)00322-6/fulltext

"Finally, it is important to stress that on the basis of the underlying mechanism that we established in mice,
19 similar efficacy can only be expected from B subtilis strains that produce fengycins. According to our in-vitro results, this feature is absent from several frequently used commercially available B subtilis probiotic formulae, which is in contrast with the more widespread production of fengycins we previously detected in human isolates of that species."

 

[serafim]

thank you! @Atlas

 

[serafim]

i was hoping the var. natto strain produced fengycin but it doesn’t according to this study. it’s a pretty comprehensive analysis of metabolites produced by different strains of b. subtilis

 

[Hip]

According to the 2023 study, many commercially available strains of Bacillus subtilis don't contain the necessary fengycins to inhibit Staphylococcus aureus.

That could explain why I noticed no benefits from the two Bacillus subtilis probiotic supplements I took (namely this SuperSmart one and this one).

On this topic I saw this on Reddit:

I contacted one of the researchers at the NIH and he said that not all strains of b. Subtilis work. MB40 is the one they used in the study, but it is not commercially available. The only commercially available strain that works according to Dr. Otto is HU58.

That's very interesting, looks like this HU58 strain Bacillus subtilis probiotic is available under the Microbiome Labs brand, costing £54 on the UK Amazon.

Here is the same Reddit thread on the Wayback Archive where you can still read the deleted posts.

 

[anne_likes_red]

That could explain why I noticed no benefits from the two Bacillus subtilis probiotic supplements I took (namely this SuperSmart one and this one).




That's very interesting, looks like this HU58 strain Bacillus subtilis probiotic is available under the Microbiome Labs brand, costing £54 on the UK Amazon.

Here is the same Reddit thread on the Wayback Archive where you can still read the deleted posts.

I've been taking the Microbiome labs HU58 for a couple of months now. The first couple of days I developed a sore right side tonsil and for several nights I woke up sneezing in the night with tickling/irritation in the right sinus. I also had general 'die off' symptoms - extra fatigue, skin rash, heaviness in limbs etc. but that passed after a week.
More recently I started alternating the HU58 with a multi strain bacillus product which is similar to Megaspore but without the bacillus licheniformis. I can't say I've noticed any real improvement over all yet, but I'll keep taking them until they're finished.

ETA I should mention -during the time I've been taking the probiotic I have actually noticed a reduction of eye floaters. It's not something I would have expected from that intervention...but on consulting Mr Google I can see it's not beyond the realm of possibility. So there's that.

 

[Hip]

The first couple of days I developed a sore right side tonsil and for several nights I woke up sneezing in the night with tickling/irritation in the right sinus. I also had general 'die off' symptoms - extra fatigue, skin rash, heaviness in limbs etc. but that passed after a week.

That's interesting, it does perhaps suggest the possibility of Staphylococcus living in the throat, nasal and sinus areas.

It's interesting that in the 2023 follow-up study that gave the Bacillus subtilis MB40 probiotic to people, they observed a 96·8% reduction (= 31-fold decrease) of Staphylococcus aureus in the stool, but only a 65·4% reduction (= 3-fold decrease) in the nose.

So this probiotic reduced intestinal Staphylococcus levels far more than it reduced nasal levels (as might be expected, given that the probiotic goes into the gut, not the nose).

This is why I was experimenting (see this post) with a Bacillus subtilis probiotic nasal spray (although now I realise that that my Bacillus subtilis probiotic likely does not produce fengycins).



In terms of what percentage of ME/CFS patients may have an underlying Staphylococcus issue, if we look at Professor Gottfries's clinical trials of the Staphypan Staphylococcus vaccine on ME/CFS patients (see this post), he reports 65% of treated patients responding favourably to the vaccine, and 33% of treated patients obtained a 50% reduction in symptoms.

So that suggests about two-thirds of ME/CFS patients might have Staphylococcus issues.

 

[EddieB]

I've been taking the Microbiome labs HU58 for a couple of months now. The first couple of days I developed a sore right side tonsil and for several nights I woke up sneezing in the night with tickling/irritation in the right sinus. I also had general 'die off' symptoms - extra fatigue, skin rash, heaviness in limbs etc. but that passed after a week.
More recently I started alternating the HU58 with a multi strain bacillus product which is similar to Megaspore but without the bacillus licheniformis. I can't say I've noticed any real improvement over all yet, but I'll keep taking them until they're finished.

ETA I should mention -during the time I've been taking the probiotic I have actually noticed a reduction of eye floaters. It's not something I would have expected from that intervention...but on consulting Mr Google I can see it's not beyond the realm of possibility. So there's that.

Did you eventually find any benefit from this?

 

[anne_likes_red]

Did you eventually find any benefit from this?

Not enough benefit to buy another bottle.
I took the multi spore biotic product containing a smaller amount of HU58 until mid December.
I make natto regularly so I'm getting a different strain of Bacillus subtilis in my diet that way.

 

[serafim]

don’t know if it was posted here already but b. subtilis 534 was found to be effective against s. aureus source. i didn’t find any mention of fengycin but i only read the abstract

it’s available in russia under the brand name Споробактерин (Sporobacterin) and it’s very cheap.

 

[Hip]

don’t know if it was posted here already but b. subtilis 534 was found to be effective against s. aureus source. i didn’t find any mention of fengycin but i only read the abstract

it’s available in russia under the brand name Споробактерин (Sporobacterin) and it’s very cheap.

Looks like Sporobacterin can be bought at Russian international pharmacies here and here. Seems to be sold as a bacterial suspension in liquid.