B2 I love you!

[Tunguska]

Fozzaw, I don't know if you are aware of this, but boron seriously depletes B2. B2 is an antidote to boric acid poisoning.

Wow, now I wish I had read the whole 40 pages better. I didn't know Boron binds B2 either. I took it every day (3-20mgs) for arthralgias and because it seemed to give a slight clarity and I was probably deficient in Boron (based on diet at the time). Could help explain whatever B2 deficiency I might have had or its ineffectiveness. Thanks

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/24/1_MeetingAbstracts/537.13

Boron, found richly in green vegetables, fruits, peanuts and legumes, has high affinity for cis-diol functional groups found in nucleotides, sugars, as well as in vitamins such as riboflavin. For the first time, electrospray ionization mass spectrometry in the negative ion mode was utilized to observe the complex formation between boron and riboflavin. In addition, fluorescence spectroscopy was used to investigate whether boron can affect the binding affinity between riboflavin and riboflavin binding protein from chicken egg white. The results of this study can help support the conclusions made from previous work in which a correlation between boron exposure and riboflavin deficiency in chicks and hens was demonstrated. The results of this work are relevant for the treatment for human riboflavin deficiency that causes dry skin, photo-sensitivity and inflammation of the lining of mouth and tongue.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I do know that boron binds B2, but I need to take the boron (4.5 mg) for my osteoporosis. I take it several hours after the B2, which stays in your system only a few hours.

Are riboflavin binding proteins a good thing? I eat eggs not too long after taking B2.

 

[Tunguska]

I don't know. There's this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3800955

The concentration of riboflavin and riboflavin-binding protein were determined in the plasma, egg yolk and albumen from hens fed a riboflavin-deficient diet (1.2 mg/kg) supplemented with 0, 1, 2, 3, 10 and 40 mg of riboflavin/kg. We observed that the deposition of riboflavin in egg yolk and albumen is dependent on dietary riboflavin and reaches half-maximal values at about 2 mg of supplemental riboflavin/kg. The maximal amount of riboflavin deposited in the yolk is limited stoichiometrically by the amount of riboflavin-binding protein, whereas the maximum amount of riboflavin deposited in albumen is limited by other factors before saturation occurs. The amount of riboflavin-binding protein in yolk and albumen is independent of dietary riboflavin. If there is a specific oocyte receptor for riboflavin-binding protein, it cannot distinguish between the apo and holo forms of the protein. Riboflavin-binding protein is about six times more concentrated in yolk than in plasma.

If you calculate from their numbers looks like there's ~0.5mg of "riboflavin-protein binding power" (whatever you'd call that) in a large egg, but only ~0.2mg riboflavin that comes with it. Assuming my math isn't totally off.

I don't know if digestion does a good job of unbinding it or not.

I also ate a lot of eggs...

 

[Lou]

I do know that boron binds B2, but I need to take the boron (4.5 mg) for my osteoporosis. I take it several hours after the B2, which stays in your system only a few hours.

Are riboflavin binding proteins a good thing? I eat eggs not too long after taking B2.

I don't know, but wish someone that did know would answer here. I currently, on average, eat 2 or 3 eggs a day and wonder if this is actually depleting available riboflavin.

When I first started chelation I got wonderful clarity of mind after taking B2. However, this ended in short order and have been unable to reproduce despite many varied approaches. It all gets too damn complicated for me to figure.

 

[Little Bluestem]

In reviewing my notes on communications with Christine, I find:
“Eggs are very high in choline, biotin and have some folic acid - all lower B2.”

So, yes, it sounds like they could be depleting available riboflavin. They are cheap, nutritious, easy to prepare, and I like them too well to quit eating them. Maybe take more B2 before eating eggs?

 

[Lou]

In reviewing my notes on communications with Christine, I find:
“Eggs are very high in choline, biotin and have some folic acid - all lower B2.”

So, yes, it sounds like they could be depleting available riboflavin. They are cheap, nutritious, easy to prepare, and I like them too well to quit eating them. Maybe take more B2 before eating eggs?

Well, there you have it(provided Christine knew what she was talking about), and I think I'll do same, Little Bluestem, take some additional B2, see if that helps. Good work.

 

[rayco]

folic acid in eggs? where does it come from since FA is synthetic......maybe the feed that was given to the chickens.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I don't know if digestion does a good job of unbinding it or not.

Riboflavin-binding protein makes riboflavin unavailable.
Egg whites contain avidin which makes the biotin from the yolk unavailable too.

folic acid in eggs? where does it come from since FA is synthetic......maybe the feed that was given to the chickens.

The yolk actually contains methylfolate, I believe.

izzy

 

[Violeta]

More on the B2 coenzymes FAD and FMN.....

The coenzymes FAD and FMN have many biological functions. They act as cofactors for several enzymes involved in redox reactions and in the metabolism of other B vitamins (folate, vitamin B-6, and niacin). Such enzymes can be FAD dependent, such as methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR), which plays an important role in folate and homocysteine metabolism, and the erythrocyte enzyme glutathione reductase (GR), or FMN dependent, such as the enzyme pyridoxine phosphate oxidase (PPO), which converts dietary vitamin B-6 to the biologically active form, pyridoxal phosphate.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Thanks, @Violeta for bumping this thread. While my knowledge isn't enough yet to appreciate the info you posted, rereading some old posts here helped me to sort out my current problems with B complex and mineral supplementation...

Fozzaw, I don't know if you are aware of this, but boron seriously depletes B2. B2 is an antidote to boric acid poisoning.

Wow, now I wish I had read the whole 40 pages better. I didn't know Boron binds B2 either. I took it every day (3-20mgs) for arthralgias and because it seemed to give a slight clarity and I was probably deficient in Boron (based on diet at the time). Could help explain whatever B2 deficiency I might have had or its ineffectiveness. Thanks
http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/24/1_MeetingAbstracts/537.13

Boron, found richly in green vegetables, fruits, peanuts and legumes, has high affinity for cis-diol functional groups found in nucleotides, sugars, as well as in vitamins such as riboflavin. For the first time, electrospray ionization mass spectrometry in the negative ion mode was utilized to observe the complex formation between boron and riboflavin. In addition, fluorescence spectroscopy was used to investigate whether boron can affect the binding affinity between riboflavin and riboflavin binding protein from chicken egg white. The results of this study can help support the conclusions made from previous work in which a correlation between boron exposure and riboflavin deficiency in chicks and hens was demonstrated. The results of this work are relevant for the treatment for human riboflavin deficiency that causes dry skin, photo-sensitivity and inflammation of the lining of mouth and tongue.

My multimin has a tiny amount of copper, and I am trying to up it to a proportion of 10:1 of zinc to copper, but feeling bad (sore liver and serotonin issues due to lowered B2 due to the Boron content!). So it means I just have to take my multimin a few hours apart from my Bcomplex, since the Boron is antagonizing B2 and possibly the B6 as well. Well, then there is a cascade involving

Boron - B2 - Copper - neurotransmitters
Boron - B6 - Zinc - neurotransmitters
Magnesium - Aluminum - Boron - neurotransmitters

ad infinitum...

 

[Violeta]

I wish my brain worked better, too, I don't really have the ability to get into the information about the riboflavin enzymes.

I was using mostly eggs for protein for about 2 weeks, and taking boron in the form of borax during that time. I had no idea they raised the need for more B2. But my vision went down hill almost over night. Two days ago I started to be more careful with my B2 supplementing and my vision has cleared up somewhat.

That's a very interesting study about the boron and B2. I am trying to find something that shows how maybe the two of them work together with copper metabolism. I see, Izzy, that you have the boron, zinc, and B6 grouped together, another very interesting clue. Thank you.

 

[aaron_c]

Hi Everyone

Long time listener, first time caller, as they say. First time on this thread, at least.

I have been taking b2 for the past week or so. It is my second go at it, my first one having given me insomnia, which prompted me to stop and read through this long but fantastic thread.

At the same time that I started B2, I went off of methyl B12, methylfolate, and took active B1 down from 1000 mg to 150 mg per day. (In case anyone is interested I am homozygous for MTHFR C699T). At this point I am taking what it seems like is more B2 than most people: I take 14 mg maybe six times a day, including before bed and about four hours into sleep. Total that would be 84 mg per day.

Things I have noticed:
-A post-nasal drip. I am assuming this is lymph moving around, which is exciting, as this has been an issue for me. About a year ago I started giving myself castor oil packs on my liver each night to help with lymph movement--and it had a noticeable effect. So getting my body to do it itself is great.
-Fuller use of my lungs, particularly the top part. Deeper, more resonant voice this morning (maybe I needed B12 too for this?).
-Better, more timely sleep: Instead of waiting until 11 or 12 at night to sleep, I now feel tired starting maybe 9:00 pm. I haven't tried sleeping then yet, but I plan to. Last night I went off a chinese formula that I have used for years, and it *seems* that I slept alright. Time will tell if that holds up.
-Urine has sometimes been yellow, sometimes fairly pale. I read someone (can't remember who, my appologies!) quoting Christine/Dog Person as saying to watch for signs of B12 deficiency, then take some. The signs were light urine; sore mouth/throat; and low energy. Which is all to say that this might be from not enough B12.
-Fatigue: I have been fairly to somewhat tired at times. More physically than mentally. Magnesium seems to help. B12 may help. Taking some of the R5P variety of B2 rather than the regular kind may help.
-Insomnia: I haven't had any this time, but last time I did, and I believe the difference is that the first time I tried switching to B2, I was using the R5P variety entirely (I took maybe 35 mg per day). Although Christine said that we have to remove the phosphate (leaving us with plain 'ol B2 again) in order to absorb it, I think some of us with leaky guts might ignore that rule. Other possibilities are that B2 interacted with the high doses of B1 I had been taking.
-Mild nausea: Much of the time. I suspect it occurs mainly in the hours after eating. I still take a teaspoon of turmeric after food, perhaps this is it? In any case, nausea this regularly did not happen prior to the B2.

Before starting on B2, I had blood tests for B2 status, hemoglobin, and possibly a complete blood count. (My doc called me with the results, so I don't physically have them yet.) They were all normal. Prior to this, I had been taking laktoferrin daily, so perhaps this has helped my iron status remain normal.

I haven't started taking manganese yet, because of a prior occasion when it gave me insomnia for weeks after stopping it. But after teasing out the B12-B2 interaction a bit more, I may start a somewhat low dose of Mn.

I'm not answering a question, and I don't necessarily have one either. But I thought I would add my two bits to our body of B2 experiences.

Best Wishes.

 

[aaron_c]

I also just came across these charts in a book. I did not realize that B2 stabilizes (and thus increases the activity of) MTHFR enzymes along with 5MTHF. Unfortunately, I am not sure that I can post the charts, but they can be found on page 261 of Homocysteine in Health and Disease. Here is a link to the google book, although you might not get access to the same pages.

I don't entirely understand the experiment (anyone know what a menadione oxidoreductase assay is?) but Here is a table of results extrapolated from the graph. Percents are approximations, and I haven't included indications for standard deviations, which often stretch about 10% in either direction...basically, look at the charts, if you can.

5MTHF in medium________________________0 (uM)____18.9 (uM)________170 (uM)
% residual activity for wild-type MTHFR________40%______65%____________95%
% residual activity for MTHFR C677T__________12%______32%____________65%

FAD in medium__________________________0 (uM)_____.29 (uM)________1.45 (uM)
% residual activity for wild-type MTHFR________30%_______75%___________90%
% residual activity for MTHFR C677T___________5%_______30%___________65%

In any case, I hadn't realized that both B2 and 5MTHF stabilize MTHFR. Perhaps the reason I experienced immediate positive effects from B2 is that I am MTHFR C677T +/+. @Asklipia, @Little Bluestem, and anyone else who has had a positive experience with B2, do any of you know your MTHFR SNP status?

I know that the potential benefits of B2 that have been discussed go far beyond the MTHFR enzyme, and even if I am right about this interaction, all we might be seeing is that C677T +/+ individuals feel good with extra B2, at least until other things are fixed.

PS. When I began high doses of B2, I stopped taking any 5MTHF, and only took one mg of methylcobalamin per day (and no other B12). After two weeks or so, I can say that the lack of 5MTHF has slowly eroded my energy and ability to concentrate, so it seems that decently high B2 does not necessarily negate the need for methylfolate.

PPS: To further clarify, this from Folate in Health and Disease, Second Edition on page 60 in a chapter by Patrick Stover:

The C677T mutation "enhances the loss of the flavin adenine dinucleotide cofactor (FAD), creating a thermolable protein."

Maybe it is a chicken-or-the-egg thing, but Patrick Stover is saying that C677T is less functional because it more easily loses hold of B2. Although, again, it seems that having 5MTHF attached to the enzyme also preserves function.

 

[Violeta]

Thank you for the link and information.

 

[Violeta]

Thanks again. I will try adding some MTHF back in too. I appreciate your find.

 

[Tunguska]

I'm normal for C677T even though I benefited from B2 for awhile, but I needed and still need folate as well if not more for whatever reason not clearly established. If no folate then I wouldn't take B12 myself.

 

[Asklipia]

@Asklipia,anyone else who has had a positive experience with B2, do any of you know your MTHFR SNP status?

Thank you for this information. No, I have no idea of my MTHFR status.

 

[aaron_c]

Thanks @Tunguska

Do you recall how you benefited from B2, and how long the benefits lasted? And it sounds like you stopped taking larger amounts of B2, if so, what was the reason?


Another Update: I said I would try manganese, and I have, but after two or so weeks of taking vitamin k (the MK-4 variety) at a 14mg/day dose. Now it feels good! I can take 10 mg if I spread it out through a day, and it gives me energy. More than 10 mg, or taken more closely together, and I become prone to anger--I wonder if this was what caused a lot of the "anger" that Christine/DogPerson attributed to iron.

Although the B2 could be what allows me to use manganese, judging by the majority of people on this forum who have had problems with both, I wonder if the missing piece was a large amount of MK-4.

 

[Tunguska]

R5P though not alone and requiring folate especially gave me neurotransmitter help and I felt almost normal when it did. Other cofactors necessary prior to it but it was always upon taking the R5P after all of them that the improvement happened. It worked on/off for probably a month though I don't remember the timeline. Eventually and still now I've hit a strange block (not the same as the wall effect I described in the thread I made) which is another story, I'm not sure related to B2 or not, there are other factors. I don't know in my case if it had anything to do with MTHFR, there's too many ways it might have helped including TCA, pyrimidines. I only take smaller doses of R5P because now it has no great effect except very slight alertness. The folate is more effective in my current state (and I think other supps are taking away from it). Unrelated, I did try B2 alone for a short time but it was too late and not long enough and probably in vain.

 

[ahmo]

@Violeta I've received the following message in my email, but don't see it in this thread...

Tunguska:
I'm normal for C677T even though I benefited from B2 for awhile, but I needed and still need folate as well if not more for whatever reason not clearly established. If no folate then I wouldn't take B12 myself.

Violeta:
Just wondering why you wouldn't take B2 if you didn't take folate, as B2 helps process folate. Is your diet low in folate from vegetables? Do you have a food source of b2? Because folate metabolism actually is one of the ways that b2 is used up.

I've only been following this thread very peripherally. I'm using low dose B complex, high doses Mfolate, MB12. Your comment makes me wonder if additional B2 might be what I need. I've had to eliminate all green veggies, as even small amounts send me into symptoms. It's become quite clear that veg folate (folinic) blocks Mfolate for me. Maybe some additional B2 might make the difference, allow me to eat some greens again?? I've been very reluctant to imbalance my B's since starting w/ my low-dose protocol. I'm only taking a 25mg B comp daily. Of course, I finally gave away my bottle of unused R5P