B2 I love you!

[dannybex]

I was not as convinced that she had the answer to ME/CFS as she was. I think she had a piece of the answer that not many others have. If she had stayed around and been open to feedback, she would have been able to tweek her protocol into something better faster than any of us will probably be able to.

I agree with you, and I'm sure others who worked with her, or tried to work with her do as well. She wasn't open to feedback, she didn't like being questioned, and in the end dropped many desperate patients because of the questions, IMHO. She had a large group of patients (some had low thyroid, some had hyperthyroid, some low adrenal function, some, with high cortisol), yet we were all given the same blanket prescription.

That being said, I did appreciate her piece of the puzzle (almost no one ever recommends trace minerals like manganese, and the b2 is very important), and was able to walk further and stand for longer periods at least for the first 2-3 months on her plan. But when she put everyone on 'manganese only', I asked if I should do so as well. She said okay, I tried it, got worse (very painful hands and tendons in my arms), then she became "upset" that I chose to resume the b2 and b12, and basically that was it. She wouldn't reply to any other emails. And in hindsight, she made these changes in her recommendations without doing any retesting, and later refused to retest those who wanted to pay for retesting.

Apparently she is ill, due to too much iron in her system (?). I hope she can recover.

I am not afraid of this either. What I recall from my conversations with her is that by doing liver biopsies on dogs that had died, they had, after several iterations, developed a protocol that was highly successful for dogs.

I'm not sure if her dogs were ever on manganese or b2. If you look at the sites that "Dog Person" posted on, she first was telling everyone that iron deficiency was the problem, then zinc, then zinc was 'bad', etc., and said in the radio interview that 'home cooked' food was what helped them turn their health around...so who knows. Again, I hope she figures it out and can get well.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I used to hope for the day when this poisoning would stop. ... It cannot stop because they even print with fake folates on non-food packages, so that you will chose a particular brand of lets say soap.

Is the glutamate absorbed through the skin after touching the print?

 

[Little Bluestem]

But when she put everyone on 'manganese only', I asked if I should do so as well. She said okay, I tried it, got worse (very painful hands and tendons in my arms), then she became "upset" that I chose to resume the b2 and b12, and basically that was it.

Since I did not get my free hair analysis done, I was not around for the ‘manganese only’. I am still taking B2 at 4 X 12.5 mg/day. Are you also still taking it?

Is anyone else still taking B2?

Apparently she is ill, due to too much iron in her system (?). I hope she can recover.

It was my understanding that she was fairly well recovered. But then, how many of us have at some time thought we were fairly well recovered only to later find out otherwise.

I'm not sure if her dogs were ever on manganese or b2.

In one of her PMs to me, she wrote of a dog with liver problems and said that they were “giving her vitamin supplements every hour all day and all night ”. I was assuming that included B2 and manganese, but she didn’t specify.

In a members only chat she spoke of dogs whose liver biopsies showed high stores of iron and copper, and deficient manganese. She wrote “We knew they symptoms were indicative of B2 deficiency but could not correct the deficiency with just 1 supplement.” and “What was also so very interesting, was when we first started them on the B2, they exhibited the same symptoms as when the iron was circulating unbound. … So after working with many dogs, what we found is that you have to start with a small dose only two or three times a day and gradually work up to 25 mg./every hour for months.” She also wrote that dogs need more B2 than people.

So the dogs were getting at least B2.

 

[merylg]

Since I did not get my free hair analysis done, I was not around for the ‘manganese only’. I am still taking B2 at 4 X 12.5 mg/day.
Is anyone else still taking B2?

Hi Little Bluestem, I also did not get any hair analysis done at the time. At my last correspondence with Christine I continued with B2 at a dose of 3.125 mg once/day. I stuck with that dose for quite awhile. Though now I have decided to play around with the B2 dose and increase it a bit.
(Caffeine blocks it's use & causes it to be lost in urine at an increased rate)
(Any gut damage will cause less to be absorbed)
(Other vitamins will increase demand on B2 stores)

I was supposed to be introducing B12 at 3.125 micrograms/day but with my dry eye problems I cannot even tolerate that.
I was allowed to take some magnesium for the sake of my eyes and I take a sprinkle from a magnesium malate capsule once/day.

Manganese I cannot tolerate orally in any form or dose...as chelate or as WaterOz (Gives me stomach ulcer symptoms)

I find I can tolerate about a teaspoonful of WaterOz manganese rubbed on my forearms say once a day or so.

I cannot tolerate the 100mg CoQ10 that I was supposed to take. It gives me swelling-type headache.

I am now experimenting with making organic raw whole-milk kefir. Was drinking a cup/day. Will reduce it to about 20ml/day.

 

[dannybex]

Since I did not get my free hair analysis done, I was not around for the ‘manganese only’. I am still taking B2 at 4 X 12.5 mg/day. Are you also still taking it?

Is anyone else still taking B2?


It was my understanding that she was fairly well recovered. But then, how many of us have at some time thought we were fairly well recovered only to later find out otherwise.

That was my understanding as well. In fact I spoke to her on the phone a couple of times, the second call only about a week or so before she suddenly told someone else that she was given only months to live. When I expressed concern in an email, she said something like "it isn't new information!", yet a week earlier she was so confident her minerals were so balanced that she could get bit by ticks and would not get lyme. She joked about it, so I was pretty alarmed when I heard otherwise. In my last email to her I told her if she could turn her dogs health around I was confident she could do the same for herself...but got no reply.

Perhaps that's why she was so angry at many members, especially when they questioned her or asked for references on her claims, because she may have realized deep down that she didn't have 'the answers' and that might have been scary with regards to her own health. Of course I don't know, and it's probably not fair of me to speculate...it's just a well-intentioned guess on my part.

In one of her PMs to me, she wrote of a dog with liver problems and said that they were “giving her vitamin supplements every hour all day and all night ”. I was assuming that included B2 and manganese, but she didn’t specify.

In a members only chat she spoke of dogs whose liver biopsies showed high stores of iron and copper, and deficient manganese. She wrote “We knew they symptoms were indicative of B2 deficiency but could not correct the deficiency with just 1 supplement.” and “What was also so very interesting, was when we first started them on the B2, they exhibited the same symptoms as when the iron was circulating unbound. … So after working with many dogs, what we found is that you have to start with a small dose only two or three times a day and gradually work up to 25 mg./every hour for months.” She also wrote that dogs need more B2 than people.

So the dogs were getting at least B2.

Again, I'm not sure about her dogs, but yes, some dogs, maybe including the terriers in her later study, were treated mainly with b2, and perhaps manganese. But I think she had said they have been well for about five years, and as of four years ago, she was recommending other things...like iron and zinc...on other forums (morgellons, diabetes, autism...).

Anyway, I'm still confident she can turn her situation around. And we can do the same...

d.

p.s. I stopped the b2 and manganese as well, but just took a little b2 w/dinner. I was averaging about 12.5 mgs a few times a day as well.

 

[Rand56]

danny said....

" She wasn't open to feedback, she didn't like being questioned, and in the end dropped many desperate patients because of the questions, IMHO."

If she was not prepared to handle all the questions, then maybe she should have thought twice about posting her theories on PR. Also, if she is having health problems of her own that is unfortunate and I feel bad for her, but she didn't have a colleague that she worked with who could atleast follow up on the people that she did hair analysis and made suggestions for here on PR? To me, that is unprofessional to start helping some people and then just to keep people hanging not knowing how to proceed.

 

[Asklipia]

I still don't really understand it however. Yes, b2 is required, but then does that mean that people who get a lot of sun in their native environment, naturally, are depleted in b2? That part doesn't make sense. Perhaps it's just one piece of the puzzle.

I have read the whole chapter (The Handbook of Behaviour, Food and Nutrition, vol.1, Riboflavin defiency, Brain function and Health, by Sinigaglia et al.) and will certainly read it and read it again, as there is an amazing amount of information in there. By the way, I could not find it anywhere so I downloaded it from the publishers, only one chapter.
In answer to your question, the authors state that, for a reason they do not explicit, maybe 10 to 15% of the general population may be affected by a genetic mutation : An inherited disorder of the cellular uptake and trafficking of vitamin B2 metabolites may result in poor intestinal absorption, increased urinary loss, and disrupted homeostasis of vitamin B2 metabolites in the CNS.
This induces problems with vitamin D (and other things).
The depletion does not come from a deprivation of vitamin D per se, or from lack of sunshine.
The vitamin D depletion results from a vitamin B2 problem.

My hunch is that this vitamin B2 genetic problem, which could be a direct cause (for the authors) of many CNS diseases, results from fake folate poisoning.
All the diseases cited are becoming exponentially more common in modern societies. This means that if the authors are correct, this genetic problem is getting exponentially more common. This is not possible by a simple spreading of the genes, it has to come from environmental issues.
Be well!
Asklipia

 

[Asklipia]

Re glutamates:
It's my understanding that it's the d-glutamate that is the 'free', unbound -- and bad/unnatural -- form of glutamate, or glutamic acid. L-glutamate is one of the main amino acids found naturally in almost all foods, especially meats, fish, etc..

Yes, and I suspect that the balance between the two is essential. Or at least that there should not be too much free glutamate. But when I supplemented with L-glutamine I had all the bad excitotoxic effects. Even when removing the capsule. It could very well be that what they sell as L-glutamate contains enough D-glutamate to induce a reaction.

It could be that my body has decided NEVER to accept D-glutamate again, never mind the amount.

And according to Braverman and Pfieffer, manganese (!), and b6 help convert glutamate/glutamic acid, into gaba, which is it's calming 'cousin'. Perhaps the reason or one of the reasons that many people react to even natural glutamate is that they're low in these other factors?

Most probably. I do not react to natural glutamate though, even if I am sure some people must do.

This fits elegantly with the idea of D-glutamate (fake folates) in loads bringing on a manganese deficiency, a B6 deficiency and a B2 deficiency. Then onwards to whatever Sinigaglia et al. describe.

 

[merylg]

Yes, and I suspect that the balance between the two is essential. Or at least that there should not be too much free glutamate. But when I supplemented with L-glutamine I had all the bad excitotoxic effects. Even when removing the capsule. It could very well be that what they sell as L-glutamate contains enough D-glutamate to induce a reaction.

It could be that my body has decided NEVER to accept D-glutamate again, never mind the amount.


Most probably. I do not react to natural glutamate though, even if I am sure some people must do.

This fits elegantly with the idea of D-glutamate (fake folates) in loads bringing on a manganese deficiency, a B6 deficiency and a B2 deficiency. Then onwards to whatever Sinigaglia et al. describe.

Hi Asklipia, so do you find it sufficient to avoid sources of D-glutamate ("fake folates") and eat foods that supply you with B2 Riboflavin, Manganese & B6??? Or are you supplementing any of these? Sorry if you have discussed this before...I am just feeling tired at the moment...thanks for sharing your insights...

http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=108

 

[Asklipia]

Is the glutamate absorbed through the skin after touching the print?

I don't know, but I think anything in your immediate environment is picked up by the body as being there. You kind of "smell" it in a way. So if you can spot it, it means it can affect you. Now I have to rush out of supermarkets once I have bought my supplies because I feel the aggression of the fake folates when I am in some areas, a tingle on my skin, a kind of need to hurt someone. This is not a problem I have in other areas of supermarkets, it is not the smells etc... I can stand it no problem, but I feel it is there.
There is the problem of fake folates in all personal care products. Now to catch on but the customers addiction, they are everywhere.
Obviously if you smear on your body something that contains glutamates, you are most probably adding to the amount that is ingested.
Nowadays, this is not a problem for us, but we are amazed to see everyone rushing to buy all these junk products at a price which does not in the least reflect the quality. I can take it or leave it, there is absolutely no attraction anymore. Nor any pain if I come near glutamates. But I cannot imagine how I could consume some of the stuff I used to consume.

I have tried it in reverse : if you want to sell something (like your old car for example), if you sprinkle some msg powder in it, plus a little pouch of it in your breast pocket if you are a male, it will be sold to the first putative buyer!!!! And you will be amazed to see the buyer trying to touch your chest!!!!!! It works. We tried it several times, even selling a house.
Nice to be on the other end of the stick! All this suffering was not for nothing!
Lots of good wishes!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[Boost]

Why am I not surprised?

- It could be that she has been threatened in some way. By some former clients? by the authorities? both?

- it could be that she is overwhelmed, sick herself. And that she has not made the connection with vitamins D and K. Dogs are not fed the same fake folates as humans, they would soon die. They are given a lot of vitamin K3. They process vitamin D in a different way from humans. Maybe she can cure dogs but not humans (including herself) for that reason?

- It could be that she is in deep anguish for some detox reason and that she has washed her hands of the whole affair. Excitotoxicity brings fear.

- It could be that her dogs died and that the writing is on the wall for those who tried B2/manganese. I am not afraid of this though. I am plodding on. If I totally disappear from this thread you will know why.

In the meantime, be well!
Asklipia
FFP

- Russian mafia snuffed her out because they wanted to monopolize the riboflavin black market.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I was allowed to take some magnesium for the sake of my eyes and I take a sprinkle from a magnesium malate capsule once/day.
...
I cannot tolerate the 100mg CoQ10 that I was supposed to take. It gives me swelling-type headache.

Have you tried the powdered Natural Calm magnesium by Peter Gillham's Natural Vitality? It is supposed to be easily assimilated and the dose is easy to control. It is often used at bedtime to help with sleep.

I have had CoQ10 capsules as small as 50 mg. The ubiquinol is supposed to be the most rapidly assimilated. If it gives you a headache, that might not be a good thing. I think the powdered capsules are the slowest to be absorbed.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I spoke to her on the phone a couple of times, the second call only about a week or so before she suddenly told someone else that she was given only months to live. When I expressed concern in an email, she said something like "it isn't new information!", yet a week earlier she was so confident her minerals were so balanced that she could get bit by ticks and would not get lyme.

When I am on the phone, it is all I can do to get written notes on the things that are directly pertinent to me. I think in one of our conversations she told me that in the past her doctors had nearly killed her and that she had been given only months to live. Perhaps she said that it was not longer current information, that is, no longer true. Her going on vacation, then closing her business does make one wonder just what is going on.

When you wrote of 'her dogs', I was giving it a broader, more general interpretation, as in the dogs that she had helped treat. I do not know anything about her personal dogs.

 

[Asklipia]

Why do "fake folates = Anti-K"?

Hi Dannybex!
One of the ways is this:
Vitamin K mops up the glutamates. And the glutamates bind to vitamin K. If you take a regular amount of fake folates, even if you do not reduce your daily intake of sheeps brains, osso buco, goat balls, foie gras, duck eggs omelets, etc... as is warmly recommended by your doctor, you have no vitamin K left. It is all bound to the fake folates and goes down the drain. No more vitamin K left to do its jobs. No more vitamin K left to bind to real needed folates if you eat your greens.

Some useful uses for vitamin K in case it does not come to mind :
- proper calcium distribution
- lowering of homocysteine
- healthy pancreas with lots of pancreatic enzymes
- healthy myelin all around
- etc...

Lots of good wishes!
Asklipia, still at war against FFP

I forgot : one of the reasons of course why vitamin K is not popular is that if you take fake folates at the same time, it generally makes you sick. We noticed that since we supplemented with vitamin K, we had a more immediate brutal reaction to fake folates, somehow I think due to a liver problem. We can eat loads of whatever is supposed to be too much for your liver, but some msg now for example does not gives so much a problem of excitotoxicity as a problem of vague nausea or heavy feeling on waking up, slight hangover-like. It immediately goes away with coffee or sillymarin extract, which is why I think "liver".

 

[Asklipia]

- Russian mafia snuffed her out because they wanted to monopolize the riboflavin black market.

Thank you Boost for attracting attention to my post!
Be well!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[dannybex]

Hi Dannybex!
One of the ways is this:
Vitamin K mops up the glutamates. And the glutamates bind to vitamin K. If you take a regular amount of fake folates, even if you do not reduce your daily intake of sheeps brains, osso buco, goat balls, foie gras, duck eggs omelets, etc... as is warmly recommended by your doctor, you have no vitamin K left. It is all bound to the fake folates and goes down the drain. No more vitamin K left to do its jobs. No more vitamin K left to bind to real needed folates if you eat your greens.

Some useful uses for vitamin K in case it does not come to mind :
- proper calcium distribution
- lowering of homocysteine
- healthy pancreas with lots of pancreatic enzymes
- healthy myelin all around
- etc...

Lots of good wishes!
Asklipia, still at war against FFP

I forgot : one of the reasons of course why vitamin K is not popular is that if you take fake folates at the same time, it generally makes you sick. We noticed that since we supplemented with vitamin K, we had a more immediate brutal reaction to fake folates, somehow I think due to a liver problem. We can eat loads of whatever is supposed to be too much for your liver, but some msg now for example does not gives so much a problem of excitotoxicity as a problem of vague nausea or heavy feeling on waking up, slight hangover-like. It immediately goes away with coffee or sillymarin extract, which is why I think "liver".

Thanks for this Asklipia. A nice summation.

I would also add salicylates and phenols -- or foods, drinks, and especially frankenfoods with added salicylates/phenols in the artificial coloring and flavorings -- to the list of things that mess with vitamin K.

Here's a nice user-friendly site -- the woman who runs it got over a myriad of health problems by changing her diet, part of which was increasing k and decreasing sals:

http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html

"A diet with high intakes of salicylates can block vitamin K. Salicylates are found in foods such as nuts, fruits, spices and mints."

Many foods (and especially spices) are extremely high in salicylates/phenolic compounds. Dried fruits, dates, raisins, and almonds -- and raw honey -- are especially high in sals. And many with autism and CFS (including myself) have really bad salicylate intolerance problems. I think I need to 'up' the 'k' ???

And also brain fog problems, which leads me to one more connection that I found probably more than a year ago, but completely forgot about -- high oxalate foods and vitamin K. You might be interested in checking out this link:

http://www.infantreflux.org/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=10636

Quoting just one tiny part...about 1/3rd down the page....

"The active form K2 is required for the proper handling of oxalates and calcium in the gut as well as calcium regulation outside the gut - outside it pulls apart calcium-oxalate crystals, allowing the calcium to then be absorbed and shuttled off to wherever it needs to go. Most DAN! don't know about K2, but only plain vitamin K."

 

[Asklipia]

Hi Dannybex! This is a big help! I did not know of that salicylates/phenols connection with vitamin K.

I would also add salicylates and phenols -- or foods, drinks, and especially frankenfoods with added salicylates/phenols in the artificial coloring and flavorings -- to the list of things that mess with vitamin K.

Here's a nice user-friendly site -- the woman who runs it got over a myriad of health problems by changing her diet, part of which was increasing k and decreasing sals:

http://www.ctds.info/vitamink.html

"A diet with high intakes of salicylates can block vitamin K. Salicylates are found in foods such as nuts, fruits, spices and mints."

Many foods (and especially spices) are extremely high in salicylates/phenolic compounds. Dried fruits, dates, raisins, and almonds -- and raw honey -- are especially high in sals. And many with autism and CFS (including myself) have really bad salicylate intolerance problems. I think I need to 'up' the 'k' ???

Interesting too the link she gives to BHT, which is in most personal care products (though not in mine, because as a result of finding fake folates everywhere I now make my own) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6845355?dopt=Abstract

I had come across that lady's site when I was researching vitamin K, but I had overlooked the salicylates/BHT mentions, most probably because I did not recognize myself in the symptoms she cites. But my symptoms receeded too with vitamin K2, which would tend to underline a property of vitamin K which is I think overlooked everywhere : it seems to be a regulator. This is difficult to think for most people who are locked into dualistic thought. Good or bad.
But reality is not to be cut in halves. "Devil" means the one who divides!

And also brain fog problems, which leads me to one more connection that I found probably more than a year ago, but completely forgot about -- high oxalate foods and vitamin K. You might be interested in checking out this link:

http://www.infantreflux.org/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=10636

Quoting just one tiny part...about 1/3rd down the page....

"The active form K2 is required for the proper handling of oxalates and calcium in the gut as well as calcium regulation outside the gut - outside it pulls apart calcium-oxalate crystals, allowing the calcium to then be absorbed and shuttled off to wherever it needs to go. Most DAN! don't know about K2, but only plain vitamin K."

This looks really interesting. I have no time just right now to go into more detail.
But one thing strikes me : couldn't this be the place where we find the link between vitamin K2 and manganese?

Lots of good wishes Dannybex, I hope you get well extra fast!!!
And everyone on this forum must be guaranteed a very long life, ME/CFS or not, because in Japan they say that every time you learn something new, you are given 6 more days of life!!! Thank you for the (4 x 6 days) you just gave me!
May all the sufferers in the world feel better today!
Asklipia
FFP

 

[dannybex]

Thank you for the good wishes. I was doing better on the manganese and b2/b12...but have had to stop the manganese because I developed aching muscles in my hands (especially) and my arms. Almost like carpal tunnel, but not quite. Also my skin is very hot and dry, especially on my arms and hands...no doubt I need more fats, but haven't been able to tolerate them for years. I'll have to slowly add them though, as this low-fat thing isn't working at all. Maybe the k2 will help with that...

You make a good point about the salicylates. I too wouldn't -- and didn't really -- pay much attention in the past to certain articles on various topics, because I couldn't quite see the symptoms in myself. However, when things get really bad, and seem inexplainable, then one starts hunting. And seeing. You know?

And IMHO, salicylates can create, in some individuals, horrendous symptoms that having experienced them, are far worse then the excitoxicity from glutamates...simply because they can affect so many more parts of the body. That's just my subjective opinion of course, but here's a much better list of symptoms, and a better explanation of why they act the way they do, about halfway down the page at this link:

http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/plants-bite-back

​

(I tried to copy and paste part of the page here, but it created a huge block of type.) ???​

​

Anyway, these things can rev one up with anxiety, restlessness, irritability, itching, hives, tinnitius, insomnia (WIRED BUT TIRED), crying, gut problems, and in kids with autism, head-banging, speech problems, ADD, ADHD, etc., etc. NOT fun, especially when one needs calm and peace in order to sleep and heal. ​

​

Deeeeeeeeeeep breath -- ouch -- and relax. ​

​

Anyway, lots of other good info on that page on other plant chemicals. Interestingly, they mention vitamin a and D to deal with salicylates, but not vitamin K2, even though they promote that heavily in their organization. Apparently the author didn't speak with the woman (Catherine Tamarro?) who recommends K2 for oxalate problems in autism... ​

 

[Boost]

I'm curious if brenda still loves B2?

 

[Asklipia]

Hi Dannybex, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

I was doing better on the manganese and b2/b12...but have had to stop the manganese because I developed aching muscles in my hands (especially) and my arms. Almost like carpal tunnel, but not quite.

I did not have this symptom yet or anything related. I wonder what this is. Did it happen to anyone else?

Also my skin is very hot and dry, especially on my arms and hands...no doubt I need more fats, but haven't been able to tolerate them for years. I'll have to slowly add them though, as this low-fat thing isn't working at all. Maybe the k2 will help with that...

It could be related to the first problem since it was in the same place (hands). Hot and dry, for me (but in legs and face) is something that happened with B2 and manganese. I think some detox is going on and that whatever is circulating makes the thyroid work too much, hence the dryness which I associate with low thyroid. Also the heat could be some kind of metal detox.
However I don't think a lack of fats goes into this, because I eat a lot of good fats and take K2. So I doubt adding fats will solve that problem.
But I do think we should eat fats, otherwise how could we assimilate the fat-soluble vitamins? A low fat diet in my opinion is extremely dangerous. Have you tried oil-pulling to start exercising your gallbladder? It works on many people who have been deprived of fats for so long.

salicylates can create, in some individuals, horrendous symptoms that having experienced them, are far worse then the excitoxicity from glutamates...simply because they can affect so many more parts of the body. That's just my subjective opinion of course, but here's a much better list of symptoms, and a better explanation of why they act the way they do, about halfway down the page at this link:
http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/plants-bite-back

In my opinion, salicylates are most of the time a problem with vegetarians, which may be one of the reasons why I did not spot them as problematic.
In fact salicylates seem to be antagonistic to vitamin K1, not to vitamin K2 (sorry this is something I read some time ago and I don't find a reference now). Since the K1 is the form that is found in vegetables, there follows that if you eat enough kidneys, cheese etc... you should not get vitamin K deprived (unless you take in the fake folates of course). On the other hand vegetarians deprived of fats and taking fake folates would be in a horrendous position, deprived of Vitamin K and maybe suffering from salicylates sensitivity. Maybe there is a link between this salicylates sensitivity and lack of vitamin K. Maybe their bodies are sceaming : stop that salicylate so I may get a bit of much needed vitamin K?
I always wonder if symptoms are not for the best, so that we may survive another day.

Lots of good wishes,
Asklipia
FFP

​