B-12 - The Hidden Story
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On what protocol? The body is using methyl B12 all the time and needs it. Some older protocols suggest hydroxo B12, but that's because it was more available in some places, particularly the UK. HB12 is also recommended when someone cannot tolerate additional methyl groups in mb12.
B12 is used in the methionine cycle, which then goes through CBS and makes glutathione, which is binding to mercury and many other toxins. Glutathione is our bodies most powerful antioxidant, and is definitely needed. For those who have heavy metal or other toxicity it is wise to know what one is toxic with, and to use a thoughtful approach Iin removing toxins from the body.
For example, I had mercury toxicity and used chelators DMSA and DMSO, along with methylation nutrients to increase glutathione production, and then I was also given B1 and molybdenum to help a go down the transculperation pathway and remove it from my system. I've also detoxified several other metals and bad things and MB12 has been a key part of this detoxification process. There are many many resources for learning about methylation and use of nutrients such as folate and MB12 on the internet, you might start with a diagram of the process Which identifies the nutrients used so you can better understand how to supplement. It is disastrous to follow someone else's protocol, because they are not you and do not have your genetics or environmental factors like toxicity, so the nutrients will work differently in them than you.
B12 is used in the methionine cycle, which then goes through CBS and makes glutathione, which is binding to mercury and many other toxins. Glutathione is our bodies most powerful antioxidant, and is definitely needed. For those who have heavy metal or other toxicity it is wise to know what one is toxic with, and to use a thoughtful approach Iin removing toxins from the body.
For example, I had mercury toxicity and used chelators DMSA and DMSO, along with methylation nutrients to increase glutathione production, and then I was also given B1 and molybdenum to help a go down the transculperation pathway and remove it from my system. I've also detoxified several other metals and bad things and MB12 has been a key part of this detoxification process. There are many many resources for learning about methylation and use of nutrients such as folate and MB12 on the internet, you might start with a diagram of the process Which identifies the nutrients used so you can better understand how to supplement. It is disastrous to follow someone else's protocol, because they are not you and do not have your genetics or environmental factors like toxicity, so the nutrients will work differently in them than you.
@Learner1 Thanks! Forgot to specify it: ACC protocol. What methylation nutrients did you use?
As for the ACC; I'd like to start with DMSA 12,5mg, my amalgams were removed 2 years ago so I was also wondering whether I can already take ALA with it. Were you using Living Supplements' DMSA? They have all dosages availbale to make 50% increases.
Tho I'm also getting concerned about mercury specks below the new fillings, that means I gotta take a bite-wing x-ray, seems like we just can't catch a break, each problem leads to another one and so on.
As for the ACC; I'd like to start with DMSA 12,5mg, my amalgams were removed 2 years ago so I was also wondering whether I can already take ALA with it. Were you using Living Supplements' DMSA? They have all dosages availbale to make 50% increases.
Tho I'm also getting concerned about mercury specks below the new fillings, that means I gotta take a bite-wing x-ray, seems like we just can't catch a break, each problem leads to another one and so on.
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We've been over this before. Everyone I talked to that has trouble tolerating B12 says the exact same thing: the form of B12 doesn't matter, any form of B12 is hard to tolerate.
You shouldn't assume that everyone has the exact same experience as you have. Everyone is different.
You shouldn't assume that everyone has the exact same experience as you have. Everyone is different.
I made no assumptions but provided factual information and asked questions.
B12 is essential for life - everyone needs it. Deficiency can cause permanent nerve damage and dementia - not good.
B12 is essential for life - everyone needs it. Deficiency can cause permanent nerve damage and dementia - not good.
Sorry, not sure what ACC is. I used Thorne Research 5-MTHF, MethylGuard Plus, P5P, Neurochondria, as well as Designs for Health Magnesium Malate and Xymogen ALAmax. I used the DMSA and DMSO prescribed by my doctor. It still took a long time.
I look at it like an old fashioned bucket brigade to put out fires:
One has to get each piece of the biochemical process working to mobilize, process, and get rid of the toxins. B12 alone is not sufficient.
Regarding ALA, it is one of the only things that can go into mitochondria and scoop out toxic stuff sequesters inside them. The warnings you may here are based on the concern of pulling the toxin out without having the steps in place needed to fully process and excrete them, in which case, the toxin has nowhere to go and gets redeposited in some random location. I think of this like the funny sketch on "I Love Lucy" where Much and Ethyl are working on the assembly line in the candy factory...
https://tenor.com/view/lucille-ball-ilove-lucy-chocolate-factory-gif-10904610
But, if one has a good process set up, with a diet with adequate fiber and water, B1, molybdenum, B6, glycine, glutamine, NAC, B12, zinc, potassium, magnesium choline, B2, NAD, and 5-MTHF, the ALA can be taken at a fairly high dose and can really help to efficiently get bad stuff out if the mitos so you can get rid of it.
I look at it like an old fashioned bucket brigade to put out fires:
One has to get each piece of the biochemical process working to mobilize, process, and get rid of the toxins. B12 alone is not sufficient.
Regarding ALA, it is one of the only things that can go into mitochondria and scoop out toxic stuff sequesters inside them. The warnings you may here are based on the concern of pulling the toxin out without having the steps in place needed to fully process and excrete them, in which case, the toxin has nowhere to go and gets redeposited in some random location. I think of this like the funny sketch on "I Love Lucy" where Much and Ethyl are working on the assembly line in the candy factory...
https://tenor.com/view/lucille-ball-ilove-lucy-chocolate-factory-gif-10904610
But, if one has a good process set up, with a diet with adequate fiber and water, B1, molybdenum, B6, glycine, glutamine, NAC, B12, zinc, potassium, magnesium choline, B2, NAD, and 5-MTHF, the ALA can be taken at a fairly high dose and can really help to efficiently get bad stuff out if the mitos so you can get rid of it.
@Learner1 ACC stands for Andre Cutler Chelation, sorry I'm just giving for granted everyone in here knows about it for some reason. You pretty much used the main components of it; DMSA/DMSO followed by ALA plus the supplements. Thanks for the detailed list, appreciated!
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@motorhead I've done many rounds of ACC using only ALA and I used mb12 and adeno the entire time with no issues. I now take ALA every day in fairly high doses, 300 mg/day and I take very high doses of b12 as well so I can say that I seem to have resolved my mercury issue but I don't think it was as severe as those with amalgams. My mercury load was mainly from vaccines and sushi and canned tuna which I used to eat a lot of. I also have CPOX4 SNP that worsens the neurological effects of mercury so a little mercury goes a long way for me.
I don't recall ever reading that b12 should be avoided during Cutler Chelation but I have read that methylcobalamin can move mercury around in the form of methylmercury. I have no experience with DMSA and I've never had amalgam fillings so my experience may not be pertinent.
When I was having major mercury issues I needed to supplement high doses of molybdenum as well as mercury will displace molybdenum in many enzymes. I also noticed in my case that my CBS SNP would upregulate when I was dumping mercury and was more active before I did chelation.
My theory is that, in the presence of mercury and maybe other heavy metals the CBS SNP will upregulate as an effort by the body to increase glutathione but it interferes with methylation so this causes problems in those of us with compromised methylation cycles and it causes toxic sulfites to build up. High dose b12 also seems to have contributing to solving this issue for me as I no longer need large doses of molybdenum.
I don't recall ever reading that b12 should be avoided during Cutler Chelation but I have read that methylcobalamin can move mercury around in the form of methylmercury. I have no experience with DMSA and I've never had amalgam fillings so my experience may not be pertinent.
When I was having major mercury issues I needed to supplement high doses of molybdenum as well as mercury will displace molybdenum in many enzymes. I also noticed in my case that my CBS SNP would upregulate when I was dumping mercury and was more active before I did chelation.
My theory is that, in the presence of mercury and maybe other heavy metals the CBS SNP will upregulate as an effort by the body to increase glutathione but it interferes with methylation so this causes problems in those of us with compromised methylation cycles and it causes toxic sulfites to build up. High dose b12 also seems to have contributing to solving this issue for me as I no longer need large doses of molybdenum.
From what I've seen, the Cutler protocol is meant for do it yourselfers who have no doctor supervision and it's meant to keep them out of trouble. I spent about 3 years chelating mercury at much higher doses of the chelators and ALA than the Cutler protocol under an expert doctor's care and on a full methylation protocol. I think I'd be dead from toxicity long before I finished the Cutler protocol - it's just too slow. Additionally, as one chelates, the metals seem to come out one at a time, so even though I got rid of virtually all the mercury, I then needed to get rid of lrsc, arsenic and tin. Cutler is aimed mostly at mercury
Glutathione doesn't interfere with methylation. What happens is that if one has metals or other things to detoxify, the body uses up nutrients faster, do the whole process must be more robustly supported.
Here is a diagram of the methylation cycle showing where nutrients are used (in the little black boxes):
This shows the other antioxidants which help to recycle glutathione - note that ALA is on the right and SAMe from the methionine cycle is on the left.
As for sulfur, it is a necessary component of the process and will build up if B6 is deficient (as in the presence of high oxalates) or a lack of molybdenum or SUOX problem in the transsulfuration pathway - see the bottom right on this diagram, which overlaps with the one above:
I currently take 1.8-2.4g a day of ALA. It helps my energy and is effective at pulling toxins out of mitochondria.
Glutathione doesn't interfere with methylation. What happens is that if one has metals or other things to detoxify, the body uses up nutrients faster, do the whole process must be more robustly supported.
Here is a diagram of the methylation cycle showing where nutrients are used (in the little black boxes):
This shows the other antioxidants which help to recycle glutathione - note that ALA is on the right and SAMe from the methionine cycle is on the left.
As for sulfur, it is a necessary component of the process and will build up if B6 is deficient (as in the presence of high oxalates) or a lack of molybdenum or SUOX problem in the transsulfuration pathway - see the bottom right on this diagram, which overlaps with the one above:
I currently take 1.8-2.4g a day of ALA. It helps my energy and is effective at pulling toxins out of mitochondria.
Did you have to change something or stayed on DMSA&ALA for that? How do you know you were pulling out those other metals? Several hair tests?
Yes, tho it's always advised to follow it with a doctor supervision it's do it yourself oriented, I guess I'll be able to tweak the increases if not feeling like detoxifying.
As you weren't familiar with ACC I take it you weren't doing the 4 hours-4 days cycles?
Yes, tho it's always advised to follow it with a doctor supervision it's do it yourself oriented, I guess I'll be able to tweak the increases if not feeling like detoxifying.
As you weren't familiar with ACC I take it you weren't doing the 4 hours-4 days cycles?
I was familiar with the Cutler protocol, but not the ACC nomenclature. I think if you have no other choice, it may help at s very, very, very slow pace. Too slow and limited for anyone with the toxicity I had. It took me 3 1/2 years to get rid of mercury orally, 1 year to get rid of most of my platinum, and another 2 years to get rid of arsenic. These things are very toxic and spending 10 years to vhrylste mercury was not desirable - I have a family history of cancer and Parkinson's - all toxin related, and already had stage 3 cancer.
My doctors have never used hair tests. I had a succession of provoked urine tests. Metals don't come out all together. They tend to come out sequentially, one at a time, with appropriate chelators used. Here is a chart of chelators matched up with which things they chelate - there are other things not mentioned on this chart but it's a start:
My doctors have never used hair tests. I had a succession of provoked urine tests. Metals don't come out all together. They tend to come out sequentially, one at a time, with appropriate chelators used. Here is a chart of chelators matched up with which things they chelate - there are other things not mentioned on this chart but it's a start:
I see, thanks a lot again and glad you got over it. Did you have to undergo chemo?
Getting a doctor's help is a rather big issue here I feel. Had my eyes on the two-per-day Life Extention as it has minerals in the form Greg suggests, was worried about the 25mg ALA but, I understand now it's not a massive dose provided I get all the other components to help the body get rid of these toxins.
I'll probably bother you to know what was the timing of your cycles like. I get that is dose-dependant probably, I like these throw-everything-at-it approach tho, pass me the term. Just can't wait to feel better.
Getting a doctor's help is a rather big issue here I feel. Had my eyes on the two-per-day Life Extention as it has minerals in the form Greg suggests, was worried about the 25mg ALA but, I understand now it's not a massive dose provided I get all the other components to help the body get rid of these toxins.
I'll probably bother you to know what was the timing of your cycles like. I get that is dose-dependant probably, I like these throw-everything-at-it approach tho, pass me the term. Just can't wait to feel better.
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@Learner1 if I may ask, do you know how you got so toxic? Besides your amalgam fillings, were there other sources for this toxicity?
I'm asking as I feel this could be very important lesson for us all.
I'm asking as I feel this could be very important lesson for us all.
I have lousy detox genes, old mercury fillings leaching into my system, eating canned tuna maybe 1-3 times a month over a long period of time, and living near a concrete plant that was found to be exhausting mercury into the air.
https://baynature.org/article/cupertino-cement-plant-cutting-mercury-pollution/
https://baynature.org/article/cupertino-cement-plant-cutting-mercury-pollution/
It might be wise to look for a functional medicine doctor who knows chelation who can advise you. Everyone is an individual, with different toxic loads and different genetics.
Basically, once you know what yoxins you need to get rid of, the strategy is to set up a conveyor belt to mobilize it and get it out of you, preferably working backwards from the point of excretion to where it's stored. (When clearing a traffic jam, the cars at the front go first, then the cars behind them, and so on, til the back of the jam clears...
So, you start at the intestines - lots of water and fiber going through which helps move the toxins out, then backward through transsulfuration, glutathione production and recycling, then the methionine cycle with the B12, then the folate cycle. Then adding the ALA, and the appropriate chelator. This can be a daily routine over a long period of time.
That's the general theory, though different toxins use different detox processes, so using the appropriate approach for each toxin is necessary. (Phase I CYP450 enzymes, then the 6 Phase 2 processes: acetylation, sulfation, glucuronidation, glutathione conjugation, methylation, and glycination.)
If you start detoxing too fast and get nasty headaches or a sick feeling stomach or intestines, my doctors have me high dose curcumin, which cleared it out fast. I used to get IV curcumin, but it's not available in the US right now, so, after testing a dozen "high potency" brands, I found Designs for Health CurcumEvail was 3-4 times stronger than anything else.
Typically, only one thing will come out at a time - I had chelated mercury for over 3 years, then platinum for a year, then found I had arsenic, which had never shown up on a test, start to come out, then lead, then cadmium, then tin. This has taken several years, so, it becomes a lifestyle. This is why I'm not s fan of Cutler - it's too slow and focused mainly on mercury - while one is plodding along with that, the other toxins can be causing mischief....
Hope this helps... B12 is great stuff, but it needs the other co-factors to get the job done...
Basically, once you know what yoxins you need to get rid of, the strategy is to set up a conveyor belt to mobilize it and get it out of you, preferably working backwards from the point of excretion to where it's stored. (When clearing a traffic jam, the cars at the front go first, then the cars behind them, and so on, til the back of the jam clears...
So, you start at the intestines - lots of water and fiber going through which helps move the toxins out, then backward through transsulfuration, glutathione production and recycling, then the methionine cycle with the B12, then the folate cycle. Then adding the ALA, and the appropriate chelator. This can be a daily routine over a long period of time.
That's the general theory, though different toxins use different detox processes, so using the appropriate approach for each toxin is necessary. (Phase I CYP450 enzymes, then the 6 Phase 2 processes: acetylation, sulfation, glucuronidation, glutathione conjugation, methylation, and glycination.)
If you start detoxing too fast and get nasty headaches or a sick feeling stomach or intestines, my doctors have me high dose curcumin, which cleared it out fast. I used to get IV curcumin, but it's not available in the US right now, so, after testing a dozen "high potency" brands, I found Designs for Health CurcumEvail was 3-4 times stronger than anything else.
Typically, only one thing will come out at a time - I had chelated mercury for over 3 years, then platinum for a year, then found I had arsenic, which had never shown up on a test, start to come out, then lead, then cadmium, then tin. This has taken several years, so, it becomes a lifestyle. This is why I'm not s fan of Cutler - it's too slow and focused mainly on mercury - while one is plodding along with that, the other toxins can be causing mischief....
Hope this helps... B12 is great stuff, but it needs the other co-factors to get the job done...
It's a phase 2 detox agent that increases glutathione.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12710595/
For more info on the many properties of curcumin see the attached.
Oof ... Sorry to hear. Best to work regular detoxing into your lifestyle and plan to live with it awhile!😉 It should be worth it in the long run - good luck!
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12710595/
For more info on the many properties of curcumin see the attached.
Oof ... Sorry to hear. Best to work regular detoxing into your lifestyle and plan to live with it awhile!😉 It should be worth it in the long run - good luck!