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B-12 - The Hidden Story

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Hi, I'd just like to ask if it's a good idea to follow the mb12 protocol in my case.
My main issue is everyday (without an exception) low grade fever for 5 last years. The earlier 5 years I also had it, but only in spring and summer. I feel tired, hot, brain fogged and have chills.
Low grade fever is there regardless what I do, but it gets worse when I: eat food with histamine or salicylates, have physical excercise, stress, get too warm, too cold, sun (that's why I probably had it only in spring and summer for the first 5 years). Docs suspect CFS or mast cell disorder, but really don't have a clue.

When I take mb12 at only 40mcg sublingual, after a couple of days my low grade fever rises and it makes it really difficult to function normally (I have a part time job, I can't work more). I also wake up after 4-5 hours and can't fall asleep and feel tired during the day. Should I even make it smaller? 20mcg? Or try to persist a couple of days or weeks? Or maybe b12 is not for me?
I also know of problems with mB12 in histamine intolerant/mcad people, as it raises histamine and histamine is undoubtedly a problem for me. Could anyone comment on that?
Just to let you know, I'm supplementing magnesium, zinc, vit. A, B1,B2,p-5-p, C, D, E, K2, potassium and omega3.
 
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@suraj,

To the best of my knowledge what you think is happening is most likely the opposite. When a little bit of B12 and folate starts inflammation, it is because of an induced folate deficiency. One of the things that can happen with B12/folate is that they act on "internal triage levels" as some researchers called it. It is also an aspect of refeeding syndrome. The healing that is started on a level wide basis and without enough folate then takes folate from other levels leaving them with lots of inflammation. I'm 67 and have been through this over and over again. Also, lesions can start up, often as acne type lesions on the scalp but sometimes spreading to all over the body lesions as large as a quarter. I haven't had therm that large but know somebody who did. Small quantities of folate triggers inflammation on a large scale. It is precisely because it is so small a dose. There are those who disagree with me. These deficiency symptoms keep right on going because one the deficiency starts it doesn't fix itself. Refeeding syndrome can be damaging and even fatal with induced potassium deficiency. Keeping the doses low or stopping can keep the problems going for years in many cases. If my hypothesis is correct, and it has been for me, a larger dose, like 4mg 4 times a day, would have my inflammation decreasing and lesions starting healing a lot in a few days. The same problems can also be caused by larger doses of folic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl, glutathione, NAC and some other things. However, the small insufficient doses are what sticks out. You must of course make your own choices. For years I had continuous folate deficiency symptoms like these.[ Then they became intermittent and far fewer in number as my dose went up. At 15mg/day I was down to several recurring symptoms at 2 week intervals At 30mg/day I have no folate deficiency symptoms. I did have some of the similar symptoms from copper deficiency and that was with a serum level at the low end of "in range". If an enough higher dose of methylfolate will help, you and your dad would likely know in a few days. I always did. Good luck.

Version 2.11 01/11/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

Old symptoms returning
Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily



Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.


Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.

Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone


Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.


Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.


Group 8 – Boron.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html

Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.

Thanks @Freddd for the detail reply. sorry for delayed response as i was travelling, and then was down again.

I 100% agree to your above details. i have experienced each of the above at various phases. except for Group 5 copper deficiency. i will start of copper to avoid that in future.

Group 4 was the first thing i experienced when i started of B12 3yrs back, when i was prescribed tablet ( Mb12 1.5Mg with 5 Mg Folic acid daily 1).

My dads issue: you are right on, i will have to start the whole thing again full fledged, in a more professional way, i need to train him before, especially with potassium before i up any other DQ, as he had a Cardiac arrest 12yrs back and is on cardiac medication too.


My recent night mare, survived from Hypokalemia on my return flight from Las Vegas to Minneapolis.

last week, i had been to Vegas for 48 hrs to meet a friend of mine. i got excited of the warm temperature there (compared to Minneapolis) and was in sun for 6-8 hrs for 2 days. Also to confess i did have 1 beer ( to socialize), and my bad, i had dropped my pottasium to 600mg from 1200mg regular dose. & i had exhausted my potassium in my cabin baggage too.

i was completely dehydrated. it was 2 hr 50 min mid night flight. i fell asleep and woke up after an hr of flight with palpitation, hands trembling, dizziness, i felt it was my last day. i walked up to cabin crew, and asked them for help, if they had first aid for dehydration, as they may not understand potassium !!. they said sorry, they had nothing.

i requested them to show me all the juices they had on board. i scanned half a dozen of them and found they had Minute maid orange nutrition drink, a can of it had 630mg of Potassium :eek:, i felt blessed. but this was not for long.

i drank the can in 5 min. and was fine for 10 min. but the issue began again. the absorption was not happening.
i totally drank 6 such cans in the remaining 1hr 50min. the cabin crew were shocked and dint charge me seeing my situation.

the moment the flight landed, i was fine !!! alas how was this possible.
i guess due to difference in cabin pressure, the absorption was not happening.
probably if i had kept potassium powder under my tongue, that would had fixed the issue in few seconds.

but big learning to carry potassium when i travel..
 

Freddd

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Hi, I'd just like to ask if it's a good idea to follow the mb12 protocol in my case.
My main issue is everyday (without an exception) low grade fever for 5 last years. The earlier 5 years I also had it, but only in spring and summer. I feel tired, hot, brain fogged and have chills.
Low grade fever is there regardless what I do, but it gets worse when I: eat food with histamine or salicylates, have physical excercise, stress, get too warm, too cold, sun (that's why I probably had it only in spring and summer for the first 5 years). Docs suspect CFS or mast cell disorder, but really don't have a clue.

When I take mb12 at only 40mcg sublingual, after a couple of days my low grade fever rises and it makes it really difficult to function normally (I have a part time job, I can't work more). I also wake up after 4-5 hours and can't fall asleep and feel tired during the day. Should I even make it smaller? 20mcg? Or try to persist a couple of days or weeks? Or maybe b12 is not for me?
I also know of problems with mB12 in histamine intolerant/mcad people, as it raises histamine and histamine is undoubtedly a problem for me. Could anyone comment on that?
Just to let you know, I'm supplementing magnesium, zinc, vit. A, B1,B2,p-5-p, C, D, E, K2, potassium and omega3.
@Tomas,

It appears to me that you are having refeeding syndrome and keeping it from overwhelming you by tiny doses. Increased histamine is methylfolate deficiency as far as I know. Take a look at the list of symptoms in the post directly under your quoted post. And if a person takes methylfolate then they will likely need more potassium and that can be fatal if ignored. Then there will be need for AdoCbl and l-carnitine of the appropriate kind for a specific person which varies, and so on. One follows the clues of refeeding syndrome and takes the effective items. The big advantage of using the item causing deficiency symptoms is that one finds out often in hours. Then it comes down to learning to observe ones body and choose the supplement(s) that need to be added.

So also go read the thread on refeeding syndrome. A person doing this has to know what they are doing, and even that is no guarantee. Good luck.
 
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I wonder if I can post this. About 6 months ago I bought Solgar Methylcobalamin (1000 mcg) took it home and took 1 a day for only about 3 days. Felt awful and put it in the cupboard thinking I'd wasted my money.

Then months later I just happened to try a Powerade sports drink which obviously has potassium in it - I thought I'd noticed an immediate improvement in brain fog, focus, etc. So I went on to try other sports drinks with potassium in them (ie. Gatorade, Loaded) - I did overdo it initially having two in one day creating anxiety - so I eased right back and just had one drink occasionally.

Anyway the improvement in my work performance suggested to me that maybe I have been walking around with hypokalaemia for ages? No other sugary drinks have had anything like the same effect.

Then after about 2 weeks of playing with that I started to get increasing pain in my left leg. I have a dysfunctional L5 S1 joint and I normally only have half feeling in the left leg and foot. And this started to get worse. Then that pain moved to my prostate and becomes excruciating. Then at other times the pain seems to occupy my entire left leg. Today I have started taking paracetamol. Starting to get really bad.

But about two weeks ago - concurrent to all this - subsequent to taking all the sports drinks - I just randomly happen to try returning back to trying the methylcobalamin and this time it worked extremely well.

I just have 1 of these nuggets in my mouth in the morning and my mood is so much more stabilised, my focus at work is way better, fine motor skills required in my work (that I couldn't be bothered with before) are now effortless. Its huge - and very subtle - you don't notice it until you go to do something.

So thats great - but now I'm worried about my pain which is getting worse - and there seems to be an accompanying locking up of my lower back - to the point I can't bend down and pick up stuff on the ground.

I read elsewhere (here) that someone thought it was bacterial overgrowth - but to me it seems a continuation of this awakening in my left leg (although it does shift - sometimes it goes into my back) and this is a back problem of about 5 years old - where I had a lot of pain after a lifting injury but after about 2.5 years the pain died slowly out. Now all the neglected lifeless nerve problem is coming back.

I've tried specifically the no.3 McKenzie Exercise which is prescribed for lower back and that gives me little relief.

If anyone had any ideas I'd appreciate it. I have read only little about the methylation protocol but I'm cautious about doing that. Don't know if the answer lies there?

Many Thanks,

Rob
 

picante

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@musicfan50, this is a hunch more than anything: A lot of what you describe sounds like your nervous system taking up methyl B12. The pain is a bitch, but in my experience, a balanced methylation protocol decreases low-back inflammation. So the question is: Are you taking any methylfolate? Any form of L-carnitine? Any adenosylcobalamin?
Any other B vitamins?

Potassium antagonizes methylfolate, so if you need one, you usually need to balance it with the other. How much reading have you done here on PR?
 
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Thanks for that.

I guess I may have been reading what feels like a lot around the subject - but not getting onto any nitty gritty.

And part of it seems to be spare time for me. I think I read all of rev 1 of the freddd protocol. Anyway I will try and push further.

If I think about it - there has got to be some co-factoring going on - because the "re-awakening" of my left leg about a week after taking all the potassium - that was always okay - something I could live with.

But its only in the last few days of taking the Meb12 is the pain thing into a serious issue.
 

Freddd

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Thanks for that.

I guess I may have been reading what feels like a lot around the subject - but not getting onto any nitty gritty.

And part of it seems to be spare time for me. I think I read all of rev 1 of the freddd protocol. Anyway I will try and push further.

If I think about it - there has got to be some co-factoring going on - because the "re-awakening" of my left leg about a week after taking all the potassium - that was always okay - something I could live with.

But its only in the last few days of taking the Meb12 is the pain thing into a serious issue.
@musicfan50

When methylation starts working and bring previously numb nerves back to functioning, it can hurt like hell for a while before things improve. Make sure AdoCbl and L-methylfolate are to sufficiency as they both have a large influence on inflammation.

Version 2.12 02/14/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

Old symptoms returning
Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue


Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily



Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
 
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Thanks Picante Ahmo and Freddd.

I got px'ed Ibuprofen - but I'm still in pain. I gotta say it's radical getting this amount of pain back after years without it. Also I felt something in my head this morning. I lost part of my hearing a long time ago. Been lying on the floor doing McKenzie extensions. Got insomnia. Lost a whole day yesterday.

But sounds like I need to try the other supps - if I can get them here - and look at the Caledonia links. Nearly 6am now. Might try and get some more sleep!
 
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Love U @Johnmac , thank you for reassuring me :) low & slow path is pretty safe ahead.

i understand how that is "I felt an acute discomfort to be in my own body," . i felt the same on full dosage LCF, crashed with severe depression, brain fog, black out, i was just crawling between kitchen and bed :lol: for 20 days, also if i completely withdrew from LCF, i was equally crappy :sluggish::devil:.
This was before u pointed me to @Freddd s micro titration on LCAR :thumbsup:. thanks once again :hug:

i was on 10MG adB12 for 2 months before i added LCF, probably that could be a reason. just a wild guess.
@Johnmac @Freddd i guess i got the hint. im unable to increase LCAR(1:98) to even 6 drops per day in 5 Weeks, guess i should reduce Source naural Adb12 from 10Mg to may be 5Mg /2.5Mg or less per day. or to a weekly dose ? that may help me to up my LCAR .

I took high amount of adb12 due to the Large gorilla paper study...

what do u advice?, should i keep Adb12 at 10Mg /day and go slow on LCAR or should i reduce Adb12 ? to up my LCAR and then slowly increase Adb12 later.

@Johnmac im also curious to know what was your Adb12 dose while beginning to titrating LCAR.

Thanks @Freddd i just found ur thread on Adb12 http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...min-the-very-large-gorilla-in-the-room.20229/
 
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Hi Guys another challenge, i started having sensitive tooth not sure if its due to 20Mg Sub-lingual. i use Sensodyne tooth paste.

any advice
 

Johnmac

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Hi @Johnmac i meant ADb12 dose ? while starting LCAR at 10mcg or (1:98).

also did you face sensitive tooth issue . it just went viral after i added LCAR.
Sorry - my mistake.

Can't remember - but probably whatever was standard. 5000mcg/day? I don't recall the two have significant effects on each other.

No, the only tooth issues I've had are cavities from sublingual supps - which is why I've switched to transdermal now.
 
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Sorry - my mistake.

Can't remember - but probably whatever was standard. 5000mcg/day? I don't recall the two have significant effects on each other.

No, the only tooth issues I've had are cavities from sublingual supps - which is why I've switched to transdermal now.
Thank you @Johnmac , thats fine, it happens.
i just remember @Freddd stating Adb12 will have no effect without LCAR and whichever of the two is started later triggers ATP. so i was wondering if they both work in pair. and balance btwn the two was critical.

i just lowered from 10Mg Adb12 to 2.5 Mg per day and felt bit better. I see even Freddd was on 2.5Mg Adb12 per day on Nov 8th 2012 (i.e after 7+ yrs on protocol) i think this was the reason for my crash since i upped it in January (2months total).



Reposting @Freddd Post (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...min-the-very-large-gorilla-in-the-room.20229/)

To clarify, I dump 1/4 cap into a spoon and drop it carefully at the bottom of where my lower lip and gums comes together. Each 2.5 to 3 hours I do that on one day a week. This accompanied by the 30 mg of Enztmatic therapy mb12 I take each day during the same period. This allows adb12 to enter my CSF-CNS by diffusion. Taken as 4 doses 1 each day is perfectly fine and good. My daughter needed that. However, I, like many people with CFS/FMS/ALS/Parkinson's and others have low b12 levels of one or both kinds in their CSF/CNS which makes it easy to demonstrate that sufficiencient dose can penetrate and to some extent heal.

I've tried both methods. This works better for me and once a week appeared sufficient as regards ATP startup. However, after reading that paper and realizing that I may have missed the inflammation differences not looking for them so starting yesterday I'm taking it every day for now, 1/4 capsule, and once a week a full capsule. Quite a few people have reported improvment with daily adocbl.
 
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