Hi all
my dad just started of on a basic multi vitamin (Thorne basics V), which has active form of 150 mcg Folate and 83 mcg B12, just 1 a day . his pre existing knee pain has become severe. increase in inflammation. any advice!! he is 75+.
also some of my other family members who started of on multi got kind of piles, and even heat boils, that stayes for over couple of months.
not sure why such small quantities of folate trigger such inflammation.
any advice is appreciated.
@suraj,
To the best of my knowledge what you think is happening is most likely the opposite. When a little bit of B12 and folate starts inflammation, it is because of an induced folate deficiency. One of the things that can happen with B12/folate is that they act on "internal triage levels" as some researchers called it. It is also an aspect of refeeding syndrome. The healing that is started on a level wide basis and without enough folate then takes folate from other levels leaving them with lots of inflammation. I'm 67 and have been through this over and over again. Also, lesions can start up, often as acne type lesions on the scalp but sometimes spreading to all over the body lesions as large as a quarter. I haven't had therm that large but know somebody who did. Small quantities of folate triggers inflammation on a large scale. It is precisely because it is so small a dose. There are those who disagree with me. These deficiency symptoms keep right on going because one the deficiency starts it doesn't fix itself. Refeeding syndrome can be damaging and even fatal with induced potassium deficiency. Keeping the doses low or stopping can keep the problems going for years in many cases. If my hypothesis is correct, and it has been for me, a larger dose, like 4mg 4 times a day, would have my inflammation decreasing and lesions starting healing a lot in a few days. The same problems can also be caused by larger doses of folic acid, HyCbl, CyCbl, glutathione, NAC and some other things. However, the small insufficient doses are what sticks out. You must of course make your own choices. For years I had continuous folate deficiency symptoms like these.[ Then they became intermittent and far fewer in number as my dose went up. At 15mg/day I was down to several recurring symptoms at 2 week intervals At 30mg/day I have no folate deficiency symptoms. I did have some of the similar symptoms from copper deficiency and that was with a serum level at the low end of "in range". If an enough higher dose of methylfolate will help, you and your dad would likely know in a few days. I always did. Good luck.
Version 2.11 01/11/2016 A work in process, incomplete, use at your own risk.
INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response
Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).
There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.
IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,
Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness
Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure
Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.
Group 2a - Both
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Group 2b – Either or both
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”.
These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.
Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.
Old symptoms returning
Edema
Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,
Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue
Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,
Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,
Longer term, very serious
Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily
Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.
Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.
Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests.
Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone
Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.
High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.
Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation
When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.
Group 8 – Boron.
Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron
https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/minerals/boron.html
Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.
, i address and look up to you for your valuable inputs, since we are similar- in response to LCF, so i may be able to learn from your pitfalls if any. No doubt @Freddd is master for all of us here.
