B-12 - The Hidden Story

[imgeha]

Hi Freddd

thanks for your response. You echoed my thoughts and experience, which is that you react most strongly to the things you need most. I shall push on with the folate at small doses until I get no reaction, then slowly titrate. This could take a long time...

The methyl and adenosyl B12 are doing wonders for my brain fog. I feel more alert and positive. Onwards and upwards. Thanks for sharing your experience here.

Nicola

 

[keenly]

Hi Keenly,

First, I would say that they are essentially correct on many things regarning the NO cycles in my opinion, such as it is on such technical matters which are not my area. Carmen Wheatly has written 3 papers ("scarlet pimpernel" papers) about the very technical aspects of NO control by b12.

Unfortunately it also sounds like it was written as a promotion/justification piece for their b12 supplement that contains all 4 forms of cobalamin of which they make and sell the ONLY one. I might be inclined to have more confidence in the writeup if they were not the ones making money from it. That always gets my BS detector going. They also did not want to allow any questioning of their product or articles on their board and kicked me off. That also gets my BS detector going big time. They are trying to protect something by not allowing questioning. I have been welcome here and some other places despite questioning popular hypothesis.

I do disagree with their stated need for both cyanob12 and hydroxyb12. There is research that indicates that these actually block the active b12s from effectiveness. I've watched person after person get well without them, after switching from them in fact. However, I think a head to head comparison of effectiveness would be ideal. Say an A-B matched pair crossover model with 3 months on adb12 and mb12 5 star sublinguals to the same total dosage as their super b12 contains and another group on their super b12 and then do a switch at 3 months and see the comparison in effects. I think 3 months on each would be long enough to see the differences. It may be that there would be no difference then that would be good giving more choices. It may be that there are dramatic differences and we should definitely be aware of that. And there may be subtle differences that are difficult to interpret and that could be very interesting. And it just could be that despite the dosages that they don't know how to make an effective sublingual and then it would not really be a fair test of the theory, just of their manufacturing and a similar comparison would have to be run adding additional cyanob12 and hydroxyb12 to the 5 star active b12s and taking separates to the same totals.

Until we have such a head to head comparison, it is all just competing theory. If some were to take this product and get well at a similar rate and equal or more effectiviness, that would go a long way in demonstrating that it is effective.

The problem with so much of the testing of all these things is that they are based on people with disrupted biochemistries because of a lack of the two active b12s and methylfolate, primarily, and of p-5-p and other coezyme b factors secondarily.


The question that has not been answered is "Can these very out of kilter biochemical reactions even come about in a condition of sufficiency of these items or are these illnesses man made by feeding humans and our feed animals synthetic imitations of the real vitamins."

I would be glad to design the software for collecting ALL the data from such a head to head comparson with these and any other sets of nutriants. Some help writing it would be appreciated and would speed up the process tremendously.

Even a half a dozen folks alternating the two versions could get some ideas of relative effectiveness. For me and the hypersensitives, the differences in mb12 brands was apparant in less than 1 hour and totally complete in one week. A month long trial only made for worse setbacks for most brands and did not change a single rating. This may or may not have such obvious differences. Obviously we would have to have some folks willing to start first thing on the Prohealth formula.

Hi fred
strictly to remove excessive nitric oxide; what would you recommend?

pro health say it's hydroxy; that is apparantly the best form for this.

https://www.prohealth.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/PH167

I am going to waled tomorrow to see dr myhill. I am going to get some methylb12 injectable 5000mcg per ml; not going to use it yet though. Was thinking of trying to get every time in injectable form; what do you think?

It's mainly to help with FATIGUE.

cheers mate
paul

 

[Freddd]

Hi fred
strictly to remove excessive nitric oxide; what would you recommend?

pro health say it's hydroxy; that is apparantly the best form for this.

https://www.prohealth.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/PH167

I am going to waled tomorrow to see dr myhill. I am going to get some methylb12 injectable 5000mcg per ml; not going to use it yet though. Was thinking of trying to get every time in injectable form; what do you think?

It's mainly to help with FATIGUE.

cheers mate
paul

Hi Paul,

For the fatigue, I would be inclined to say that the best effect is usually achieved with adb12 plus l-carnitine fumarate. I have found injectable methylb12 to be fragile at best. If exposed to too much light at any time, and that isn't much light, it deteriorates to hydroxyb12 and does not work at what mb12 does best. The methylb12 at 7.5mg injected subcutaneously does very well at penetrating the CNS/CSF and causing an "upregulation of neurological healing" as the Japanese research puts it. I have injected mb12 for 5 years and fully 25% of the time it just isn't up to snuff for whatever reasons. That's a lot better than before I learned all the precautions, but still it just is not as reliable as a good sublingual. The pharmacy is using every care in preparation as I do in storing it and using it at home. If I could get a reliable 50mg mb12 sublingual I would use that instead, because I have experience.

Much of the research on b12 has been done on cyanob12 and hydroxyb12 because of a lab mistake 60 years ago. Most of the research on the inactive b12 has never been repeated with the active b12s and has NEVER been used in most research in a side by side comparison. Most comparisons compared hydroxyb12 to cyanob12 and hydroxy is hands down superior to cyanob12. The industry preferes inactive b12s because they are less fragile and have a longer shelf life thereby reducing costs but are sold at the same prices as the active b12s meaning higher profit. Is the bread with the longest shelf life the best bread? The 5000mcg hydroxyb12 is 3 times the price per tablet of the Jarrow 5000mcg mb12. Such a deal.


I have read too much of the b12 research and seen first hand the obvious false assumptions, made on the basis of inactive b12s in previous research. Methylb12,, in research done on it, calls it a major anti-inflammatory agent, producing a reduction of inflamation and increased healing unmatched by any other form of b12. It is the form directly used by the brain and nervous system. Hydroxyb12 has to be converted to methylb12 before it is used which it does at 10-30mcg/day, the rest being excreted.

If you would like to do an actual comparison between the effect of the injectable mb12 or sublingual and the 5000mcg hydroxyb12 I would certainly encourage you to do so and would be glad to help you set up the test. However, I expect that the hydroxyb12 would be about 1% as active as the mb12 and would be very surprised to find otherwise. When I take the deteriorated mb12 (hydroxyb12) at the same dose, I can tell it's broken down because my cell reproduction mechanism goes wrong and I develop acne within a few days, a common side effect of hydroxyb12, and my feet start getting numb again and my neuropathies worsen considerably and my muscles want to start spasming at the drop of a hat as my fragile neurology starts breaking down with hydroxyb12. It's very easy to tell the difference and I'm sure you likely would be able to tell the difference too if you switch back and forth a few times in a suitable manner. I would wait until at least a month on the mb12 in order to have a basis of comparison and then switch to the hydroxyb12 taking careful notes for as long as you can stand up to a month and then switch back. If you go through a few cycles of that I'm sure you will see differences and then you will know.

I'm just trying to save you a lot of false paths and wasted time and money, of giving you the benefit of what I have learned in the past 6 years. Let me know. Based on my experience and of watching hundreds of others, I wouldn't use the hydroxy if it were free or almost free from NHS which the injectable is if your doc prescribes it. I know somebody in Scotland that has a whole lot of NHS hydroxyb12 sitting in the freezer because he won't use it and feels bads about throwing it out.

 

[heapsreal]

fredd

I am betting that 35mcg of mb12 taken orally can't possibly be doing anything of any signficance. The only way 35mcg would be perceptable, especially the small fraction actually absorbed, is if you are totally deficient. That would be the glutathione as there is no other way I know of to induce that depth of b12 deficiency if you have been taking 1500mcg a day. You don't have to decide to quit. Just decide to take a break and run a comparative trial and then decide based on how things work in a trial. I'm betting if you do things differently you could feel so much better in a month that you wouldn't want to go back to the injections. The glutathione for me and 100% of 8 others who tried it with active b12 (methylb12) was that the glutathione was an unmitigated disaster, no ifs, ands or buts about it. I hadn't ever had that kind of setback in 6 years, not even when taking a zero star brand or hydroxyb12. The glutathione neutralized all the methylb12 in my body throwing me into hard deficiency in less than 12 hours. It reversed the recovery of 6 months in 6 weeks by starting up neurological degeneration again much much faster than merely not taking any.

The choice of course is yours. Don't let fear control you and keep you sick. With your symptoms coming back hopefully it would be clear that something isn't working. Attributing it to methylb12 when what you are having are methylb12 deficiency symptoms doesn't make sense. Have a trial. Try somewthing different to reverse what is happening now. You can always go back to it. Maybe you have gotten all the good out of it that you can. If you took the multi with a meal it takes 2-3 hours to begin absorbing the b12.

Go through some old post and see that glutathione negated the effects of methyl b12, does this also go for N acetyl cysteine, i take this for antioxidant reasons and also to protect the liver from medication i have taken.
Cheers!

 

[Freddd]

Go through some old post and see that glutathione negated the effects of methyl b12, does this also go for N acetyl cysteine, i take this for antioxidant reasons and also to protect the liver from medication i have taken.
Cheers!

Hi Heapsreal,

does this also go for N acetyl cysteine,

It appears to, at least to an extent. The effects of methylfolate were also negated and over the longer term so were the effects of adb12. Becasue of the severity of the setback and reactions I and others have been reluctant to explore this thoroughly. So based on some reports NAC alone may be sufficient to antagonize active b12s and active folate, though the extent is unknown.

 

[keenly]

Hi Paul,

For the fatigue, I would be inclined to say that the best effect is usually achieved with adb12 plus l-carnitine fumarate. I have found injectable methylb12 to be fragile at best. If exposed to too much light at any time, and that isn't much light, it deteriorates to hydroxyb12 and does not work at what mb12 does best. The methylb12 at 7.5mg injected subcutaneously does very well at penetrating the CNS/CSF and causing an "upregulation of neurological healing" as the Japanese research puts it. I have injected mb12 for 5 years and fully 25% of the time it just isn't up to snuff for whatever reasons. That's a lot better than before I learned all the precautions, but still it just is not as reliable as a good sublingual. The pharmacy is using every care in preparation as I do in storing it and using it at home. If I could get a reliable 50mg mb12 sublingual I would use that instead, because I have experience.

Much of the research on b12 has been done on cyanob12 and hydroxyb12 because of a lab mistake 60 years ago. Most of the research on the inactive b12 has never been repeated with the active b12s and has NEVER been used in most research in a side by side comparison. Most comparisons compared hydroxyb12 to cyanob12 and hydroxy is hands down superior to cyanob12. The industry preferes inactive b12s because they are less fragile and have a longer shelf life thereby reducing costs but are sold at the same prices as the active b12s meaning higher profit. Is the bread with the longest shelf life the best bread? The 5000mcg hydroxyb12 is 3 times the price per tablet of the Jarrow 5000mcg mb12. Such a deal.


I have read too much of the b12 research and seen first hand the obvious false assumptions, made on the basis of inactive b12s in previous research. Methylb12,, in research done on it, calls it a major anti-inflammatory agent, producing a reduction of inflamation and increased healing unmatched by any other form of b12. It is the form directly used by the brain and nervous system. Hydroxyb12 has to be converted to methylb12 before it is used which it does at 10-30mcg/day, the rest being excreted.

If you would like to do an actual comparison between the effect of the injectable mb12 or sublingual and the 5000mcg hydroxyb12 I would certainly encourage you to do so and would be glad to help you set up the test. However, I expect that the hydroxyb12 would be about 1% as active as the mb12 and would be very surprised to find otherwise. When I take the deteriorated mb12 (hydroxyb12) at the same dose, I can tell it's broken down because my cell reproduction mechanism goes wrong and I develop acne within a few days, a common side effect of hydroxyb12, and my feet start getting numb again and my neuropathies worsen considerably and my muscles want to start spasming at the drop of a hat as my fragile neurology starts breaking down with hydroxyb12. It's very easy to tell the difference and I'm sure you likely would be able to tell the difference too if you switch back and forth a few times in a suitable manner. I would wait until at least a month on the mb12 in order to have a basis of comparison and then switch to the hydroxyb12 taking careful notes for as long as you can stand up to a month and then switch back. If you go through a few cycles of that I'm sure you will see differences and then you will know.

I'm just trying to save you a lot of false paths and wasted time and money, of giving you the benefit of what I have learned in the past 6 years. Let me know. Based on my experience and of watching hundreds of others, I wouldn't use the hydroxy if it were free or almost free from NHS which the injectable is if your doc prescribes it. I know somebody in Scotland that has a whole lot of NHS hydroxyb12 sitting in the freezer because he won't use it and feels bads about throwing it out.

I have some methyl b12 now(injectable). I have it on a shelf upstairs out of the light. It's supposed to be stable; ph adjusted with something(will find out what).

who's the person with hydroxy? i would be interested in that.
do you have an email? we (me, him) could sort something out. It helps with NO and i have excessive amounts so it may help(even if it doesn;t help with any nervous system symptoms).

btw what about NADH for fatigue(atp)?

paul

 

[Freddd]

I have some methyl b12 now(injectable). I have it on a shelf upstairs out of the light. It's supposed to be stable; ph adjusted with something(will find out what).

who's the person with hydroxy? i would be interested in that.
do you have an email? we (me, him) could sort something out. It helps with NO and i have excessive amounts so it may help(even if it doesn;t help with any nervous system symptoms).

btw what about NADH for fatigue(atp)?

paul

Hi Paul,

My best advice on storing the b12 is to wrap it in foil and rubberband in place leaving just the rubber cap peeking out. Then put it in the refrigerator.

Protective effects of a vitamin B12 analogue, methylcobalamin, against glutamate cytotoxicity in cultured cortical neurons
Akaike A Tamura Y Sato Y Yokota T, Eur J Pharmacol (1993 Sep 7) 241(1):1-6

The effects of methylcobalamin, a vitamin B12 analogue, on glutamate-induced neurotoxicity were examined using cultured rat cortical neurons. Cell viability was markedly reduced by a brief exposure to glutamate followed by incubation with glutamate-free medium for 1 h. Glutamate cytotoxicity was prevented when the cultures were maintained in methylcobalamin-containing medium. Glutamate cytotoxicity was also prevented by chronic exposure to S-adenosylmethionine, which is formed in the metabolic pathway of methylcobalamin. Chronic exposure to methylcobalamin and S- adenosylmethionine also inhibited the cytotoxicity induced by methyl-D-aspartate or sodium nitroprusside that releases nitric oxide. In cultures maintained in a standard medium, glutamate cytotoxicity was not affected by adding methylcobalamin to the glutamate-containing medium. In contrast, acute exposure to MK-801, a NMDA receptor antagonist, prevented glutamate cytotoxicity. These results indicate that chronic exposure to methylcobalamin protects cortical neurons against NMDA receptor-mediated glutamate cytotoxicity.
http://www.nutritionaltest.com/methyl.html

Using optical recording techniques, we examined whether nitric oxide (NO) is implicated in the impairment of the activity of hippocampal CA1 neurons induced by mild heat stress. A temperature increase from 32 to 38 °C reversibly depressed the neuronal activity in hippocampal slices.

-Arginine (1 mM), an NO donor, enhanced the heat-induced depression of the activity of hippocampal CA1 neurons. Nω-Nitro-

-arginine methyl ester, an inhibitor of nitric oxide synthase, attenuated the inhibition of the neuronal activity induced by a temperature increase. Methylcobalamin (10 μM), a vitamin B12 analogue that reduces NO production, reduced the heat-induced depression of the neuronal activity. These results suggest that NO contributes, at least in part, to the heat-induced depression of the neuronal activity in the hippocampal CA1 region.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=91b8a864be8f96ef1fdc7c3487a635b0

who's the person with hydroxy? i would be interested in that.
do you have an email? we (me, him) could sort something out. It helps with NO and i have excessive amounts so it may help(even if it doesn;t help with any nervous system symptoms).

http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=199107#post199107
Come over to this forum and address a post to Kevin. Register first and then it takes a day or so for your first few posats to clear the moderators. Ask him about the NO and hydroxyb12 etc. I have seen nothing at all to indicate that hydryoxy does anything better than mb12 with NO, only better than cyanob12.

 

[keenly]

Hi Paul,

My best advice on storing the b12 is to wrap it in foil and rubberband in place leaving just the rubber cap peeking out. Then put it in the refrigerator.

Protective effects of a vitamin B12 analogue, methylcobalamin, against glutamate cytotoxicity in cultured cortical neurons
Akaike A Tamura Y Sato Y Yokota T, Eur J Pharmacol (1993 Sep 7) 241(1):1-6

The effects of methylcobalamin, a vitamin B12 analogue, on glutamate-induced neurotoxicity were examined using cultured rat cortical neurons. Cell viability was markedly reduced by a brief exposure to glutamate followed by incubation with glutamate-free medium for 1 h. Glutamate cytotoxicity was prevented when the cultures were maintained in methylcobalamin-containing medium. Glutamate cytotoxicity was also prevented by chronic exposure to S-adenosylmethionine, which is formed in the metabolic pathway of methylcobalamin. Chronic exposure to methylcobalamin and S- adenosylmethionine also inhibited the cytotoxicity induced by methyl-D-aspartate or sodium nitroprusside that releases nitric oxide. In cultures maintained in a standard medium, glutamate cytotoxicity was not affected by adding methylcobalamin to the glutamate-containing medium. In contrast, acute exposure to MK-801, a NMDA receptor antagonist, prevented glutamate cytotoxicity. These results indicate that chronic exposure to methylcobalamin protects cortical neurons against NMDA receptor-mediated glutamate cytotoxicity.
http://www.nutritionaltest.com/methyl.html

Using optical recording techniques, we examined whether nitric oxide (NO) is implicated in the impairment of the activity of hippocampal CA1 neurons induced by mild heat stress. A temperature increase from 32 to 38 °C reversibly depressed the neuronal activity in hippocampal slices.

-Arginine (1 mM), an NO donor, enhanced the heat-induced depression of the activity of hippocampal CA1 neurons. Nω-Nitro-

-arginine methyl ester, an inhibitor of nitric oxide synthase, attenuated the inhibition of the neuronal activity induced by a temperature increase. Methylcobalamin (10 μM), a vitamin B12 analogue that reduces NO production, reduced the heat-induced depression of the neuronal activity. These results suggest that NO contributes, at least in part, to the heat-induced depression of the neuronal activity in the hippocampal CA1 region.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=91b8a864be8f96ef1fdc7c3487a635b0

who's the person with hydroxy? i would be interested in that.
do you have an email? we (me, him) could sort something out. It helps with NO and i have excessive amounts so it may help(even if it doesn;t help with any nervous system symptoms).

http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?p=199107#post199107
Come over to this forum and address a post to Kevin. Register first and then it takes a day or so for your first few posats to clear the moderators. Ask him about the NO and hydroxyb12 etc. I have seen nothing at all to indicate that hydryoxy does anything better than mb12 with NO, only better than cyanob12.

o.k thanks
i was only interested in the hydroxy due to it being cheaper. METHYL is damn expensive! I have just injected 5000mcg of methyl(an hour ago) and i have a TERRIBLE HEADACHE; is this normal?

 

[Freddd]

o.k thanks
i was only interested in the hydroxy due to it being cheaper. METHYL is damn expensive! I have just injected 5000mcg of methyl(an hour ago) and i have a TERRIBLE HEADACHE; is this normal?

Hi Paul,

I have just injected 5000mcg of methyl(an hour ago) and i have a TERRIBLE HEADACHE; is this normal?

Sometimes. It isn't a usual reaction, but it isn't terribly unusual either. It often has to do with tightening of muscles around the back of the skull and neck. This is usually neurological in nature and can be aggravated by a shortage of adb12 in the mitochondria causing the muscles to be abnormal. They get into an exhausted contracted state and are very tender. Then when b12 comes back into them they are able to actually contract more powerfully and painfully. I had this for years before it finally let up after starting b12. Are the muslces in your neck usually tight and sore? That is one of the indications that headaches can be in the offing as one feels those sore muscles ever motre intensly. A heating pad and/or massage can be helpful. It is one of thre reasons I suggest titrating on sublinguals in several stages before injecting. With an injection you can't chew and swallow to stop the increase. For fortunately this is something that usually happens once or twice only and stops as soon as equilibriium is reached. Initial reactions can be very intense.

 

[Sunday]

order of supplements?

I've started the slow-titration version of the B12 regime - so far, I've taken only B-Right, potassium (99mg), krill oil (Omega-3s) (2000 mg), vit. A (10,000 IU), vit. C (2000-3000 mg), and cal-mag.

I need to add the zinc and vitamin E, and then had planned to go on to the methylfolin, since I'd read in one of the previous posts that it's one of the major potentiators of the B12s and can sometimes provoke a reaction itself. I figured if those things are the case, it made sense to start to folate before the first of the active B12s.

But in another post of Fredd's (sorry can't find the quote now), I got that the folate should be started AFTER the active B12s. I'm confused: can somebody explain this?

I did have a minor reaction to just taking the supplements above; I'm driving home going, "Yay, I have a headache and brain fog. It's working!"

 

[dmholmes]

I need to add the zinc and vitamin E, and then had planned to go on to the methylfolin, since I'd read in one of the previous posts that it's one of the major potentiators of the B12s and can sometimes provoke a reaction itself. I figured if those things are the case, it made sense to start to folate before the first of the active B12s.

But in another post of Fredd's (sorry can't find the quote now), I got that the folate should be started AFTER the active B12s. I'm confused: can somebody explain this?

I can't explain it, but I can add that I started both active B12s before methylfolate. And had no startup effects with methylfolate.

David

 

[Freddd]

I've started the slow-titration version of the B12 regime - so far, I've taken only B-Right, potassium (99mg), krill oil (Omega-3s) (2000 mg), vit. A (10,000 IU), vit. C (2000-3000 mg), and cal-mag.

I need to add the zinc and vitamin E, and then had planned to go on to the methylfolin, since I'd read in one of the previous posts that it's one of the major potentiators of the B12s and can sometimes provoke a reaction itself. I figured if those things are the case, it made sense to start to folate before the first of the active B12s.

But in another post of Fredd's (sorry can't find the quote now), I got that the folate should be started AFTER the active B12s. I'm confused: can somebody explain this?

I did have a minor reaction to just taking the supplements above; I'm driving home going, "Yay, I have a headache and brain fog. It's working!"

Hi Sunday,


But in another post of Fredd's (sorry can't find the quote now), I got that the folate should be started AFTER the active B12s. I'm confused: can somebody explain this?

I will attempt an explanation. The explanation is based on the pragmatic results with the internal processes hypothesized afterwards rather than an explanation based on theory and hypotheisis in advance of the results. So rather than "what should happen" it's based on what did happen, over and over.

First, to be clear, the interaction and interdependency between methylfolate, methylb12 and adb12 are extreme. Their deficiency symptoms overlap extensively and are just about impossible to separate. In some functions they provide alternate biochemical pathways. The availability of Metafolin (methylfolate) has made for a reliable folate supplement with distinctive results not available with folic acid.

One of the functions of methylfolate is that it increases absorbtion and retention in the body of both adb12 and mb12. If a person is severely deficient it makes both b12s "hit harder and quicker" with a smaller dose. In effect it makes titrating more difficult. This has been demonstrated over and over. By leaving the methylfolate to being started after both b12s it also allows one to see if folic acid has been sufficient or not. It spreads out the startup symptoms. It allows one to see the unique effects of methylfolate and to identify the pivot point symptoms unique to folate. If one is going for maximum startup effect to see if they have any deficiency reactions to b12 then methylfolate should be taken first. If one would prefer to slow down and moderate the startup symptoms then it should be taken after the two active b12s have been established. This is purely experientially based. If one doesn't have a lot of startup symptoms from the active b12s it might be started within a week. Methylfolate is a major methylator for the body and priming the pump with it as it were appears to cause gangbuster startup b12 symptoms. Because it was not available I wasn't able to start it until well after both active b12s and SAM-e and had only very minor startup symptoms with it. I started dreaming again for the first time in decades the very first night after taking it and my angular chelitis started healing immediately and was completey gone for the first time in my life in 10 days. I was injecting mb12 by that time, more than a year into it, and methylfolate allowed twice as much b12 to be injected before showing up in the urine. For some people the need for folate is so severe that they have almost no startup at all from the b12 but a lot when they start the methylfolate. It's severe lack can cause b12 to be totally ineffective.




I did have a minor reaction to just taking the supplements above; I'm driving home going, "Yay, I have a headache and brain fog. It's working!"

Good. Much as those can be unpleasant they are evidence that the supplements are going right to work.

 

[Freddd]

Differential b12 startup reactions

DIFFERENTIAL B12 STARTUP REACTIONS

The word “startup” is only used to convey timing. There is a period at the initiation of B12 usage during which a wide variety of symptoms appears, changes, intensifies or is otherwise apparent. These may occur starting within 5 minutes of a sublingual of tested absorbtion and may continue for days, weeks or rarely more than a few months. Most of these appear to be literally stalled processes starting up, of which methylation is only one though that has dozens of secondary blocked processes as a result. As there are hundreds of these stalled processes, the number of possible symptoms is very large and of many varied types. Over a period of time these symptoms settle down, most either disappearing or changing to something else and the rate of change of symptoms and intensity subsides dramatically. The symptoms themselves are usually ones that the person has or has had; often reverting to an earlier form though sometimes unrecognized symptoms occur. As the rapid inflow of active b12s into the nervous system changes the very means of perception it is often difficult to know what is occurring. Rapid changes in mitochondrial, neurological and other functioning often causes mood changes ranging from euphoria to anxiety and sometimes panic attacks. Those who respond to changes with anxiety will usually do so with these changes.


DOSE RELATED CHRACTERISTICS OF STARTUP SYMPTOMS


There are several groups of characteristics that apply to the startup symptoms across type of symptoms and specific symptoms.


1. All the startup symptoms and continued symptoms observed so far to b12 appear to have a ceiling to the effect; they do not increase without limit unlike drugs such as methamphetamine or morphine.


2. Some startup symptoms are binary, either on or off. When these “turn on” they turn on full blast with no moderation. Titrating keeps them from happening until their threshold is reached and then they are ON in full force. More b12 makes no difference at all to these.


3. Some startup symptoms appear to have a dose proportionate response, but not a linear dose proportionate response. The biggest change occurs with a small dose and intensity of symptoms increases more slowly than dose. Some have a noticeable increment of intensity at each doubling of b12 dose that decreases as it approaches the ceiling and disappears. Some approach a ceiling more rapidly than others but all appear to have a ceiling. After the ceiling is reached, more b12 has no perceivable effects. It’s like the hero’s paradox, always going halfway to the tortoise.


4. Larger doses at one time may have a different effect than the same dose spread across the day. They appear to trigger more startup symptoms at one time and penetrate deeper into tissues. More frequent smaller doses appear to penetrate more broadly and allow some startup symptoms to subside before triggering others.


5. Larger more frequent doses appear to trigger more separate startup symptoms but also to bring some to completion more quickly.


6. Very small doses subject to binding limits cause fewer startup symptoms because of limiting cellular access to active b12s and can take years to a lifetime to startup all systems. Larger doses of active b12s makes active b12 available to all cells very rapidly way beyond the limits of the binding and transport system.


7. In those with the hypothesized CNS/CSF depressed cobalamin levels as measured in some studies, 50mg single doses of selected sublinguals triggers a CNS startup reaction for each active cobalamin separately. These are not as long lasting or intense as the body level startup, presuming that the body level startup has already reached saturation.



DIFFERENTIAL EFFECTS OF DIFFERENT FORMS OF B12 AND FOLATE

In a population of people with a variety of subsets of symptoms as listed 100% inclusive of but not limited to, the symptoms of FMS, CFS, CFIDS, ME and possibly MCS most will respond to both active b12s separately regardless of previous usage of cyanob12 and/or hydroxyb12 or presumed genetic conditions or lack there of.


Starting with methylb12

If the person starts with methylb12 and reaches a state of saturated equilibrium in which startup symptoms have subsided and no further perceptible startup reactions occur with an increase of dose in the normal body range many persons will then have a separate startup reaction, usually milder than mb12 and of somewhat different characteristics to adenosylb12 at normal dosages.


Starting with adenosylb12


If the person starts with adenosylb12 and reaches a state of saturated equilibrium in which startup symptoms have subsided and no further perceptible startup reactions occur with an increase of dose in the normal body range most persons will then have a separate startup reaction of somewhat different characteristics to methylb12 at normal dosages. The mb12 startup reactions tend to be broader, more intense, and more inclusive and last longer.


Starting with hydroxyb12

If the person starts with hydroxyb12 and reaches a state of saturated equilibrium in which startup symptoms have subsided and no further perceptible startup reactions occur with an increase of dose in the normal body range most persons will then have a separate startup reaction of somewhat different characteristics to methylb12 at normal dosages and to adenosylb12 at normal dosages. These mb12 startup reactions tend to be broader, more inclusive and last longer. The previous inclusion of hydroxyb12 appears to make some of the startup reactions to each kind of active b12 significantly more severe than would otherwise have been noted.


Starting with cyanob12

If the person starts with cyanob12 and reaches a state of saturated equilibrium in which startup symptoms have subsided and no further perceptible startup reactions occur with an increase of dose in the normal body range most persons will then have a separate startup reaction of somewhat different characteristics to methylb12 at normal dosages and to adenosylb12 at normal dosages. These mb12 startup reactions tend to be broader, more inclusive and last longer. The previous inclusion of cyanob12 appears to make some of the startup reactions to each kind of active b12 significantly more severe than would otherwise have been noted.


After active b12 startup symptoms

Once startup reactions to both adenosylb12 and methylb12 have subsided they generally don’t reoccur unless the dose of active b12s is reduced below maintenance level. Additional substances such as methylfolate, SAM-e, l-carnitine-fumarate most commonly; vitamin D, Zinc, magnesium, Omega3 oils more rarely, and a number of other supplements may induce startup symptoms of their own as their presence allows certain pathways to function.



After saturated equilibrium with active b12s

If a person has reached saturated equilibrium with both active b12s and then changes to inactive b12s for maintenance, after a period of time generally deficiency symptoms will reappear and startup symptoms will occur all over again.

Once a body level saturated equilibrium is reached higher doses produce no differential affects except when the single dose level reaches a high enough level there is an additional threshold effect. This is at a dose in the area of 7.5mg subcutaneous injection or 50mgs of a tested sublingual and is suggested by Japanese research and is noted as an “up regulation of neurological healing”. This does not seem to appear in everybody but too few have tried it to be clear. There are potentially 2 separate effects, one to methylb12 and one to adenosylb12. This occurs after saturation is reached by repeated doses of the other. The general startup effects are minor but the neurological healing can be dramatic.



Separate active b12 reactivity

The separate reactivity to each active b12 in most responding people appears over a range of relative intensities. Some have huge responses to both, some a huge response to one and a mild or moderate response to the other. Some degree of separate response appears to happen in most people having any response to either. This happens far in excess of the estimates for genetic causes of such. It may be that these disease patterns themselves select for persons with these genetic patterns or it may be that the ceiling of conversion in normal people is normally below the level needed for restoring health.

People without any of these many b12 and folate related symptoms normally have no perceptible effects from either active b12 or methylfolate. People who have 1 noticeable characteristic deficiency symptom will usually have many more when a thorough history is taken.


SUMMARY – When will startup symptoms appear

This applies only to people with symptoms from the list of symptoms and similar and related symptoms. Those without symptoms rarely notice anything when starting active b12s or folate.


1. Persons not taking any form of b12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting methylb12.

2. Persons not taking any form of b12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting adenosylb12.

3. Persons not taking any form of b12 will have startup symptoms part of the time when starting hydroxyb12.

4. Persons not taking any form of b12 will have startup symptoms occasionally when starting cyanob12.

5. Persons taking cyanob12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting methylb12.

6. Persons taking cyanob12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting adenosylb12.

7. Persons taking cyanob12 will have startup symptoms part of the time when starting hydroxyb12.

8. Persons taking hydroxyb12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting methylb12.

9. Persons taking hydroxyb12 will have startup symptoms a large part of the time when starting adenosylb12.

10. Persons taking hydroxyb12 will rarely have startup symptoms rarely when starting cyanob12 though they may experience induced deficiency symptoms.

11. Persons taking methylb12 will almost never have startup symptoms starting cyanob12 though they may experience induced deficiency symptoms.

12. Persons taking methylb12 will almost never have startup symptoms starting hydroxyb12 though they may experience induced deficiency symptoms.

13. Persons taking methylb12 will often have different startup symptoms starting adenosylb12.

14. Persons taking some methylb12 brands will often have startup symptoms when changing to a 5 star methylb12 sublingual or injection.

15. Persons taking adenosylb12 will almost never have startup symptoms starting hydroxb12 though they may experience induced deficiency symptoms.

16. Persons taking adenosylb12 will almost never have startup symptoms starting cyanob12 though they may experience induced deficiency symptoms.

17. Persons taking adenosyllb12 will often have different startup symptoms starting methylb12.

18. Persons taking some adenosylb12 brands will often have startup symptoms when changing to a 5 star adenosylb12 sublingual.

 

[Sunday]

Thanks so much Freddd, for both of the above. They're very clarifying. And thanks for putting this protocol up in the first place, it's really giving me hope to see how not only you but others on this thread have done well with it.

 

[Sunday]

dmholmes, Nice to know you had no effects with methylfolin, I will strive to be like you!

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, Today I am more tired than usual, I felt so good on Tuesday & Wednesday that I over did it. Sunday I upped my methylb12 to 3 a day all at once, by afternoon I felt more tired than usual and same little reaction on Monday. I am wondering if I should go to 4 methylb12 a day. Also should I be increasing the adenosylb12 at any time? I am on 1 adenosylb12 a day. How do you know when you have reached equilibrium, how does that feel? Thank you for all your advice.

Lena

 

[keenly]

hi fred.
I have been using l cartinine furmarate and i feel awful.

This article may explain why
http://www.smart-publications.com/life_extension/mitochondria.php
How is it possible to re-energize the mitochondria without increasing free radical production?
Many of the damaging free radicals generated within cells are formed in the mitochondria during energy production. If you restored their energy producing capacity with ALC alone, it would cause a dramatic increase in free radical activity.

This would increase the amount of damage occurring within the cells, and would reduce any long-term benefit. Thus, while the amazing properties of ALC are truly a revolution in dietary supplements, the most desired anti-aging strategy would be to restore mitochondria function AND lower the level of free radical production coming from the mitochondria. Because the benefits of ALC slowly dissipate as increases in free radical production age the cells.

It goes on to say the answer is to take it with what you said; ALA!ALA mopes up the free radicals; make sense as i have purposely not been taking any anti oxidants as i planned to go on antibiotics(they protect the bacteria).

The best type is r lipoic though, right?

i have ALA but it's powder and i have now idea how much to take(i am scared to imobolize mercury) and am cautious about taking it at the mo.

BTW i am back on sublingual after taking 5000mcg injectable methyl b12; nO HEADACHE today; had in my mouth 1hour 25 mins till dissolved(under tongue).


I have a question fred if you know anything about RHODIOLA ROSEA? Apparantly it is a brilliant supplement for mitochondrial energy. I hear carsonine is also very good.

thanks for any feedback
paul

 

[Freddd]

Hi Fredd, Today I am more tired than usual, I felt so good on Tuesday & Wednesday that I over did it. Sunday I upped my methylb12 to 3 a day all at once, by afternoon I felt more tired than usual and same little reaction on Monday. I am wondering if I should go to 4 methylb12 a day. Also should I be increasing the adenosylb12 at any time? I am on 1 adenosylb12 a day. How do you know when you have reached equilibrium, how does that feel? Thank you for all your advice.

Lena

Hi Lena,

At some pont in increasing mb12 for instance, another one will make no difference at all. The tissues and parking places are all as occupied as they are going to be. After letting that stabilize, then one can try 50mg at once as that tests for CSF penetration. From the limited research already done with CSF cobalamin that there are at least two different problems and their combinations; getting it into the CSF and then keeping it there. The exact same applies to adb12 in all ways.

After reaching a point of equilibrium with mb12 then try it with adb12 while maintaining the mb12. One tablet each day or few days my be fine or 3 a day may be noticably better. I take 5 x 3mg adb12 once each 5 days timed 2 hours after my mb12 sc injection so that it can ride into my CSF with the mb12. This maintains both kinds in my CSF at equilibrium and in my body. There has been quite a broad range of what works best for each person and only individual trials can determine that.

 

[Freddd]

hi fred.
I have been using l cartinine furmarate and i feel awful.

This article may explain why
http://www.smart-publications.com/life_extension/mitochondria.php
How is it possible to re-energize the mitochondria without increasing free radical production?
Many of the damaging free radicals generated within cells are formed in the mitochondria during energy production. If you restored their energy producing capacity with ALC alone, it would cause a dramatic increase in free radical activity.

This would increase the amount of damage occurring within the cells, and would reduce any long-term benefit. Thus, while the amazing properties of ALC are truly a revolution in dietary supplements, the most desired anti-aging strategy would be to restore mitochondria function AND lower the level of free radical production coming from the mitochondria. Because the benefits of ALC slowly dissipate as increases in free radical production age the cells.

It goes on to say the answer is to take it with what you said; ALA!ALA mopes up the free radicals; make sense as i have purposely not been taking any anti oxidants as i planned to go on antibiotics(they protect the bacteria).

The best type is r lipoic though, right?

i have ALA but it's powder and i have now idea how much to take(i am scared to imobolize mercury) and am cautious about taking it at the mo.

BTW i am back on sublingual after taking 5000mcg injectable methyl b12; nO HEADACHE today; had in my mouth 1hour 25 mins till dissolved(under tongue).


I have a question fred if you know anything about RHODIOLA ROSEA? Apparantly it is a brilliant supplement for mitochondrial energy. I hear carsonine is also very good.

thanks for any feedback
paul

Hi Paul,

I have been using l cartinine furmarate and i feel awful.

It made me feel supercharged, right from day one. However, I never tried it without ALA due to the reading I had done. I found that TMG was able to be used as an accelerator control with it and moderated the effects and lasted all day.

It goes on to say the answer is to take it with what you said; ALA!ALA mopes up the free radicals; make sense as i have purposely not been taking any anti oxidants as i planned to go on antibiotics(they protect the bacteria).

The best type is r lipoic though, right?

I don't know. I am just taking the Jarrow Alpha Lipoic Sustain with Biotin, It is 300mg of ALA with 333mg of biotin in a bi-layer tablet with two releases due to the short halflife of ALA that I take with breakfast. I take 500mg of l-carnitine fumarate once a day before breakfast.

For me at least near maximum perceivable effect was reached with 250mg of the carnitine and maximum effect with 500mg. More did nothing noticable.


I have a question fred if you know anything about RHODIOLA ROSEA? Apparantly it is a brilliant supplement for mitochondrial energy

It appears to be a local Rocky Mountain wildflower. Sounds interesting. I've never tried it.

BTW i am back on sublingual after taking 5000mcg injectable methyl b12; nO HEADACHE today; had in my mouth 1hour 25 mins till dissolved(under tongue).


Sounds good. That duration probably gets you a good solid 1000mcg injection equivalent which doesn't increase tissue penetration over 5000mcg injection (IM or SC?, the effect is likely different) so you have equilibrium at 1000mcg. You may not duplicate the results the next time you try the 5mg injection. I would suggest the SC injection as it keeps the serum level not quite as high for about 6 hours allowing for better CSF penetration. That may or may not be a CSF threshold dose for you. For me it is between 6mg and 7.5mg SC. The IM was suprathreshold almost certainly. but for a very short while. For me, the most telling result is that my senses brighten up for the day and I am more aware. Either way, if you were to add 18mg or so of adb12 to a 5mg IM or SC injection, the timing would be different, you would get CSF/CNS penetration by both cobalamins and recharge the mitochondria in the neurons, or so the theory goes based on practical results.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, what is your opinion on this new breakthrough XMRV? Does that mean their is no B12 problem that we have a neurovirus? Right now I don't know what to think.

Lena