B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

Freddd, you wrote (quoted by Cort)

Have you listed the 8 brands that tested poorly? It is hard to find that info in this very long thread and I am about to order more.
JanisB

Hi JanisB,

I have not listed the other 8 brands. I have mentioned the zero star brand a few times and a couple of the others under specific circumstances that warrented it. As the tests were 6 years ago and companies may have changed their formulations and we don't have the continued usage as we do of the three 5 star brands demonstrating that they haven't lost their effectiveness, I don't know if it would serve any purpose to list them. Truely I would rather stick with listing the ones we know work well and then nobody gets confused.

 

[JanisB]

Hi JanisB,

I have not listed the other 8 brands. I have mentioned the zero star brand a few times and a couple of the others under specific circumstances that warrented it. As the tests were 6 years ago and companies may have changed their formulations and we don't have the continued usage as we do of the three 5 star brands demonstrating that they haven't lost their effectiveness, I don't know if it would serve any purpose to list them. Truely I would rather stick with listing the ones we know work well and then nobody gets confused.

Are you trying to protect the companies? I hope not. The only health food store in town has neither of those you mentioned, not does the company where I get all my stuff online. So before I purchase a different brand, can you p.m. to me if you've tried Klaire Labs (5 mg methyl B12)? Also curious about NOW brand which is the only one our health food store carries.

 

[Sunday]

Janis, I found all the necessary ingredients (with the right brands) at Total Health Discount Vitamins (no, I'm not affiliated with them or being paid to say so. They were just the spot where I found everything in the same place, and their prices are reasonable). If you Google them, you can, too.

 

[Freddd]

Are you trying to protect the companies? I hope not. The only health food store in town has neither of those you mentioned, not does the company where I get all my stuff online. So before I purchase a different brand, can you p.m. to me if you've tried Klaire Labs (5 mg methyl B12)? Also curious about NOW brand which is the only one our health food store carries.

Hi JanisB,

I'm not trying to protect any companies. www.iherb.com carries all those 5 star and other brands that were not. I have been ordering there for 6 years with excellent service and good prices. Klaire labs was not one I tried. NOW was a 2-3 star result 6 years ago. Medicine Shoppe 1mg private label, from remarks people have made to me sounds like it could be a 3-4 star brand. It's just that I would prefer to have more up to date information. As I am injecting and am saturated at a high level, I can't run comparitive tests at the present time. If I stop the injecting to do so, I lose the progress on my feet. I'll be glad to help somebody else who is hypersentitive to setup a test sequence and run some comparisons and even run a data consolodation of a number of people running such tests.

The one thing that seems pretty consistant is that drops and quick dissolve microdots are swallowed too quickly and in general appear to do very little. It was impossible for them to comply with the test conditions performed on the rest.

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Fredd, It has been one month since starting your B12 protocol and I am doing pretty good. I upped my methylb12 to two pills under my lip at same time the last two days and it made me a little hyper in a good way. Diziness & brainfog is much improved. The toxic, flu-like, nausea is gone. Crushing fatigue is gone - throughout the day I experience periods of feeling really good than tiredness so I just go with it and rest along the way. Sleeping - I can get to sleep with no problem for about three hours than awake & need xanax to go back to sleep, right now I am OK with that. My tongue is still sore & swollen hard to tell if it has improved. My walking routine is back to normal, can walk 30 minutes with no problem. What do you mean by "reaching equilibrium"?

This week I had a light bulb moment while researching active b12 came across an article listing the causes that can reduce b12. On the list was H-pylori. Around one year before I became ill with CFS I had food poisoning & developed H-pylori and was treated with 3 antibiotics for one month which left me with acid reflex. The following 5 years needed Nexium and at the same time became sick with CFS. The "ahh" moment "without sufficient stomach acid binding of b12 does not occur. Poor mucosal function may also be a cause and may show up with glossitis (a swollen tongue).

For eight years every dr. appointment I presented with swollen tongue, red burning sore tongue and ridges on all my fingernails those were really the only physical symptoms. Most drs. just wanted to kill the parasites, kill the EBV,
kill other viruses, kill candida, kill bacteria, kill toxins, until they almost killed me. My stomach mucosa was destroyed. I am in shock!!!

Thank you for opening my eyes. I am not yet recovered but have no doubt I am finally in the right direction and will regain my health again.

Lena

 

[Sunday]

Lena, it is so encouraging to hear about your progress as I wait for my order of the essential B12s to arrive - and how interesting about the connection between your acid reflux and the non-binding of B12s - my father has acid reflux and a pre-leukemic condition, this is really making me wonder about the connection.

 

[Cece]

Freddd,

Since starting the b12 and 5 methyl folate I've started having some dizziness. I'm wondering what supplement I am missing that might be causing this. Could it be low potassium. I'm not taking a potassium supplement.

Thanks,
Deb

 

[keenly]

fred

what do you think of this article?
b12; fatigue, nitric oxide etc

http://www.prohealth.com//library/showArticle.cfm?libid=13595&B1=EP100209#

 

[Freddd]

Freddd,

Since starting the b12 and 5 methyl folate I've started having some dizziness. I'm wondering what supplement I am missing that might be causing this. Could it be low potassium. I'm not taking a potassium supplement.

Thanks,
Deb

Hi Deb,

I don't think this is a potassium situation as that usually manifests in the muscles but I don't know that for sure. I suspect that as mb12 and adb12 does directly affect the neurology in many ways that changes are occurring. Others have experienced some dizziness during healing and it normally has resolved. I don't know of any that haven't.

 

[Freddd]

fred

what do you think of this article?
b12; fatigue, nitric oxide etc

http://www.prohealth.com//library/showArticle.cfm?libid=13595&B1=EP100209#

Hi Keenly,

First, I would say that they are essentially correct on many things regarning the NO cycles in my opinion, such as it is on such technical matters which are not my area. Carmen Wheatly has written 3 papers ("scarlet pimpernel" papers) about the very technical aspects of NO control by b12.

Unfortunately it also sounds like it was written as a promotion/justification piece for their b12 supplement that contains all 4 forms of cobalamin of which they make and sell the ONLY one. I might be inclined to have more confidence in the writeup if they were not the ones making money from it. That always gets my BS detector going. They also did not want to allow any questioning of their product or articles on their board and kicked me off. That also gets my BS detector going big time. They are trying to protect something by not allowing questioning. I have been welcome here and some other places despite questioning popular hypothesis.

I do disagree with their stated need for both cyanob12 and hydroxyb12. There is research that indicates that these actually block the active b12s from effectiveness. I've watched person after person get well without them, after switching from them in fact. However, I think a head to head comparison of effectiveness would be ideal. Say an A-B matched pair crossover model with 3 months on adb12 and mb12 5 star sublinguals to the same total dosage as their super b12 contains and another group on their super b12 and then do a switch at 3 months and see the comparison in effects. I think 3 months on each would be long enough to see the differences. It may be that there would be no difference then that would be good giving more choices. It may be that there are dramatic differences and we should definitely be aware of that. And there may be subtle differences that are difficult to interpret and that could be very interesting. And it just could be that despite the dosages that they don't know how to make an effective sublingual and then it would not really be a fair test of the theory, just of their manufacturing and a similar comparison would have to be run adding additional cyanob12 and hydroxyb12 to the 5 star active b12s and taking separates to the same totals.

Until we have such a head to head comparison, it is all just competing theory. If some were to take this product and get well at a similar rate and equal or more effectiviness, that would go a long way in demonstrating that it is effective.

The problem with so much of the testing of all these things is that they are based on people with disrupted biochemistries because of a lack of the two active b12s and methylfolate, primarily, and of p-5-p and other coezyme b factors secondarily.


The question that has not been answered is "Can these very out of kilter biochemical reactions even come about in a condition of sufficiency of these items or are these illnesses man made by feeding humans and our feed animals synthetic imitations of the real vitamins."

I would be glad to design the software for collecting ALL the data from such a head to head comparson with these and any other sets of nutriants. Some help writing it would be appreciated and would speed up the process tremendously.

Even a half a dozen folks alternating the two versions could get some ideas of relative effectiveness. For me and the hypersensitives, the differences in mb12 brands was apparant in less than 1 hour and totally complete in one week. A month long trial only made for worse setbacks for most brands and did not change a single rating. This may or may not have such obvious differences. Obviously we would have to have some folks willing to start first thing on the Prohealth formula.

 

[dmholmes]

Progress Report

Titrated up through the 1,000mg mb12 quarter tablets, now up to quarter 5,000mg a day. Still one adb12 a day. Tried twice to get B-Right going, had issues on both days. I'll try again soon.

A (5,000 IU), C (500mg), D (2,000 IU), E (400 IU), zinc (22mg), EPA fish oil (700mg), Folapro/methylfolate (800mg).

I discussed the B12 deficiency with my doctor, trying to figure out how it got low. I've always eaten plenty of meat. We talked about digestion, intrinsic factor, small intestine, and what could be not working well. He suggested I try Betaine HCL for a bit to see if my stomach does not produce enough acid. I always thought I produced too much acid, and used to have constant digestion issues before eating gluten-free. So far so good. I think the Betaine has even lessened or removed a symptom I have when I start eating, that is small hiccups followed by a feeling of my esophagus closing and makes it hard to breathe. Scary for a minute or so. If the Betaine can help me properly absorb nutrients that would be great.

Other than that, he is onboard with mb12 injections if I decide to go that route. He does them himself, once a week I believe.

David

 

[Freddd]

Titrated up through the 1,000mg mb12 quarter tablets, now up to quarter 5,000mg a day. Still one adb12 a day. Tried twice to get B-Right going, had issues on both days. I'll try again soon.

A (5,000 IU), C (500mg), D (2,000 IU), E (400 IU), zinc (22mg), EPA fish oil (700mg), Folapro/methylfolate (800mg).

I discussed the B12 deficiency with my doctor, trying to figure out how it got low. I've always eaten plenty of meat. We talked about digestion, intrinsic factor, small intestine, and what could be not working well. He suggested I try Betaine HCL for a bit to see if my stomach does not produce enough acid. I always thought I produced too much acid, and used to have constant digestion issues before eating gluten-free. So far so good. I think the Betaine has even lessened or removed a symptom I have when I start eating, that is small hiccups followed by a feeling of my esophagus closing and makes it hard to breathe. Scary for a minute or so. If the Betaine can help me properly absorb nutrients that would be great.

Other than that, he is onboard with mb12 injections if I decide to go that route. He does them himself, once a week I believe.

David

Hi David,

The Betaine HCl sounds like an interesting option. Quite a few have found that helpful. Also a lack of folate can hinder retention or maybe transport of b12. Your doc might find daily mb12 very interesting as he may never have thought of it as it is so contrary to PA protocols.

Sounds like everything is rolling along. B12 iteslf will help heal you digestive system. It gets into a self reinforcing loop of inflammation hindering absorbtion causing worse inflammation.

 

[klutzo]

Hypochloridia

Hi David,
The betaine HCL proved to be too strong for me. If that should happen to you, try lemon juice or even better, apple cider vinegar. 1-2 tablespoons any time you have burning or reflux while still eating a meal (a cardinal sign of hypochloridia) should do the job unless you have achlorydia and really need the Betaine HCL. You can follow up the vinegar with a little water to get the acid taste out of your mouth. If it is going to work, it should work in 2-3 minutes and you should burp within 5 mins. appx. BTW, this is also a good way to test to see if someone is hypo or acholorydic.

Good luck,
klutzo

 

[dmholmes]

Your doc might find daily mb12 very interesting as he may never have thought of it as it is so contrary to PA protocols.

He is skeptical of sublingual absorption, but he knows I am getting results. I asked him to read the B12 basics post at WD. We'll see what he says next time I go in. He has several B12 articles on his site.

I forgot to mention other progress in my update. My sleep time is back to around where it used to be before the illness, 7.5 instead of 10 hours a night. I don't seem to have the fatigue that comes out of nowhere, and I'm recovering from exercise/exertion much better.

David

 

[Freddd]

He is skeptical of sublingual absorption, but he knows I am getting results. I asked him to read the B12 basics post at WD. We'll see what he says next time I go in. He has several B12 articles on his site.

I forgot to mention other progress in my update. My sleep time is back to around where it used to be before the illness, 7.5 instead of 10 hours a night. I don't seem to have the fatigue that comes out of nowhere, and I'm recovering from exercise/exertion much better.

David

Hi David,


He is skeptical of sublingual absorption

So am I. The only reason I use it is I know it works for several brands if done long enough and I have tested it in comparison to injections and verified the amount. I have done this sytematically and repeatedly. Most brands work very little if at all, especially if slurped down or chewed in 5 minutes or less.

I forgot to mention other progress in my update. My sleep time is back to around where it used to be before the illness, 7.5 instead of 10 hours a night. I don't seem to have the fatigue that comes out of nowhere, and I'm recovering from exercise/exertion much better.

That's excellent to hear. Recovery continues as you make use of that and increase your body's capacity for work back to a higher level.

 

[imgeha]

Folate

So I do well on the adenosyl and methyl B12 - nothing but feeling better after a week of start-up symptoms. But the folate makes me sick, sick, sick. I added in 1/2 tab on Saturday, and had a day of extreme fatigue, feeling fluey. Took 1/4 tab yesterday - debilitating brain fog, fatigue, feeling fluey. I am leaving it out today to regain some ground. Should I drop it altogether, or add in at micro doses?

Any idea what the reaction is due to - kicking off methylation? With 1/2 tablet?!

any input gratefully received

Nicola

 

[winston]

B12

Hi Nicola, I had the same reaction from the Folate. I was seeing signs of improvement until I took the Folate and the bad fatigue & flu-like symptoms came back. I did not want to continue with it but I did and after a few days the bad symptoms were gone. I do take the Folate close to bedtime because it makes me sleepy. Good luck.

Lena

 

[dmholmes]

So I do well on the adenosyl and methyl B12 - nothing but feeling better after a week of start-up symptoms. But the folate makes me sick, sick, sick. I added in 1/2 tab on Saturday, and had a day of extreme fatigue, feeling fluey. Took 1/4 tab yesterday - debilitating brain fog, fatigue, feeling fluey. I am leaving it out today to regain some ground. Should I drop it altogether, or add in at micro doses?

Any idea what the reaction is due to - kicking off methylation? With 1/2 tablet?!

any input gratefully received

Nicola

Not sure, I didn't have any adverse effects adding the methylfolate. Perhaps you don't need it. I suppose I would take a couple of days off and start with whatever the smallest dose you can cut.

David

 

[Freddd]

So I do well on the adenosyl and methyl B12 - nothing but feeling better after a week of start-up symptoms. But the folate makes me sick, sick, sick. I added in 1/2 tab on Saturday, and had a day of extreme fatigue, feeling fluey. Took 1/4 tab yesterday - debilitating brain fog, fatigue, feeling fluey. I am leaving it out today to regain some ground. Should I drop it altogether, or add in at micro doses?

Any idea what the reaction is due to - kicking off methylation? With 1/2 tablet?!

any input gratefully received

Nicola

Hi Nicola,

It's fascinating where the startup reactions are in this whole busniness. In what I have experienced and observed in many people is that the reaction happens with the factors that are the most limiting ones, the ones the person is most deficient in. The methylfolate is absolutely essential to the proper funtioning of both b12s. For instance, the reaction could very well be casued by your immune system starting to work better. Folate is kind of a medium serum halflife component. It takes perhaps 5 to 10 days to reach equilibrium on any one dose. Like the active b12s, the reaction to dose is not linear. The first 200mcg can make all the difference between zero functioning and functioning and may very well make more difference than the next 600mcg combined. As all the processes that it influences have to start up if your body is to function normally, the choice comes down to how fast one goes through the startup process. The startup process at the intialization of using these vitamins is a result of many stalled processes getting started, sort of like a new driver letting out the clutch for the first time. It can be a bumpy ride.


Any idea what the reaction is due to - kicking off methylation? With 1/2 tablet?!

Methylation may be involved, but there are hundreds of other things it could be too, and maybe 20 or 30 of them at the same time. And methylation is involved in some of them as in cell reproduction. It has to happen for your body to heal. It's a good thing, not a terrible thing. As mb12 also provides a methyl source it likely is a funtional item as a cofactor doing exactly what it is supposed to do for the body to funtion. This appears more to me a cell formation type of reaction which could leave you depleted of serum potassium within a few days. That's why potassium is on the list for intial startup items, to prevent the temporary hypokalemia that can easily happen during the startup period for any of a number of supplements. I would be inclined to titrate it. If you leave it out all together then the things that have started up will shut down and you have to go through that startup all over again; like losing the same 5 pounds 10 times instead of losing 50 pounds. If you were to continue with 1/4 tablet a few days and let the startup at that level take it's course it likely will be different each day. You can choose to interpret it as something causing great distress or as indicating that your body was very deficient of it. Getting hundreds of shut down reactions going again isn't pleasant and yet there is no way to restore the body without that happening. My experience with myself, my family and hundreds of others like you and myself is that all these things pass, usually pretty quickly, with continued usage.

In my experience the things that kick up fastest when starting these supplements are also the things that correct and heal the fastest. These are functional things that can start correcting just by putting gas in the tank as it were. The actual healing is one of the things that can get started immediately but takes longer to complete.

When I felt the many varied startup symptoms six years ago my thought was Yippee! Finally something that is actually ALLOWING my body to work. Most people don't expect a vitamin to do anything. Maybe becasue we have gotten so used to the ineffectiveness of the artifical ones like folic acid. If you have been taking folic acid in a b-complex or even fortified foods, this startup reaction tells you just how ineffective it has been.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Nicola, I had the same reaction from the Folate. I was seeing signs of improvement until I took the Folate and the bad fatigue & flu-like symptoms came back. I did not want to continue with it but I did and after a few days the bad symptoms were gone. I do take the Folate close to bedtime because it makes me sleepy. Good luck.

Lena

Hi Lena,

I would like to note that I have a similar reaction with an anitbiotic when it starts to work, makes me very tired and then feeling better a few days later. When the antibiotic causes the fever to break then I feel convalescent. Folate is one of the items involved in normalizing sleep.

It's good to hear that you are doing better.