B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Freddd]

After reading this book, and a good bit of this thread I'd say B12 deficiency is not rare, but under diagnosed. I'm having good results so far. And yes, we are all different.

David

Hi David,

Both are real eyeopeners I would say. B12 deficiency is perhaps the most common health problem today but is largely unrecognized. I'm glad to hear you are doing well.

 

[brenda]

klutzo

Yes amalgams - yes Lyme. I was the same, my hair was coming out in bucketfuls at the start of Lyme.

I think it interesting that we both came to the same conclusion about the hair. I'm pretty sure that you are in tune with your body as well.

Fredd it is definitely not hormonal. It happened on the three days I took the B12, then eased off rapidly when I stopped. Losing hair for me like that is a bad sign. I have found and the feeling of inflamation in the brain stem was a worry. Well yes hormonal if you mean thyroid or adrenal hormones but that's not what you mean. I guess you are trying to put it onto sex hormones. You sound like some doctors I know - 'its' just your hormones my dear'.

You seem to grasp onto anything to explain why it might not work for others the way it worked for you.Although you and others can do this protocol, there must be some reason why a high dose in some people is possibly triggering stress for the endo system in others like me and klutzo here who seems to be at a similar stage of sickness as me. I am too sick to take risks.

Brenda

 

[klutzo]

Here comes a monkey wrench!

To everyone,
A friend in Britain just emailed me to tell me that a doctor in Europe, whose name I can't spell (Mitkovitz? something like that) is about to publish good research in a reputable journal proving beyond all doubt that CFS is caused by a retrovirus.
I am not jumping up and down yet, since I remember when first EBV was the cause, and then later on HHV6. I want to see good proof that this virus is not just another opportunist.
Could a retrovirus cause B12 problems? Why not? But, I would think our best bets would be AIDS drugs if this pans out.

klutzo

 

[busybee]

Hi Klutzo

This might be what they were meant

http://forums.aboutmecfs.org/showthread.php?t=539

Bx

 

[jenbooks]

Perhaps some of you are starting with doses that are too high. Sometimes people on Yasko start with a sprinkle. Grind a tablet with mortar and pestle--some folks are taking 1/256th of a dose.

 

[dmholmes]

Perhaps some of you are starting with doses that are too high. Sometimes people on Yasko start with a sprinkle. Grind a tablet with mortar and pestle--some folks are taking 1/256th of a dose.

Very possible. I'm on full adb12 and methylfolate, but still half of a 1000mcg mb12 daily.

 

[Freddd]

klutzo

Yes amalgams - yes Lyme. I was the same, my hair was coming out in bucketfuls at the start of Lyme.

I think it interesting that we both came to the same conclusion about the hair. I'm pretty sure that you are in tune with your body as well.

Fredd it is definitely not hormonal. It happened on the three days I took the B12, then eased off rapidly when I stopped. Losing hair for me like that is a bad sign. I have found and the feeling of inflamation in the brain stem was a worry. Well yes hormonal if you mean thyroid or adrenal hormones but that's not what you mean. I guess you are trying to put it onto sex hormones. You sound like some doctors I know - 'its' just your hormones my dear'.

You seem to grasp onto anything to explain why it might not work for others the way it worked for you.Although you and others can do this protocol, there must be some reason why a high dose in some people is possibly triggering stress for the endo system in others like me and klutzo here who seems to be at a similar stage of sickness as me. I am too sick to take risks.

Brenda

Hi Brenda,


Well yes hormonal if you mean thyroid or adrenal hormones but that's not what you mean. I guess you are trying to put it onto sex hormones

Actually Brenda, I'm not trying to put it on the sex hormones. B12 can affect a number of hormonal systems including sex hormones. So far I haven't seen any evidence that it directly affects thyroid hormones but adrenal look like a good possibility. As it can affect hormones quickly, that is a potential mechanism of action here from the b12 in 3 days. Adelle Davis was always big on liver for the adrenal things. Liver was the best source of natural b12 before it started coming in pills.

You sound like some doctors I know - 'its' just your hormones my dear'.

First, When hormones are causing a difficulty I would never say "just". I have my own hormone problems and I know how seriously they can affect health and quality of life. The Dartmouth study had some interesting things to say about testosterone and FMS. The docs would say that to be dismissive. I'm not at all dismissve about hormones.


You seem to grasp onto anything to explain why it might not work for others the way it worked for you.Although you and others can do this protocol, there must be some reason why a high dose in some people is possibly triggering stress for the endo system

You misinterpret me. It's all data and a good theory must account for ALL kinds of reactions. I'm always asking "How does it fit in". It doesn't have to be a particular thing but it is part of the system. Yes, there must be some reason or reasons. Figuring out just what that is can be tricky. There are lots of reasons it can't possibly be, so the trick is to figure out what the possible and probable ones are. Because of decades of research that has come up with some spectacularly wrong answers in the b12 area that is a more difficult matter.

For instance some researchers have come to the conclusion that since the transport system in the body can bind about 6mcg a day, nobody could possibly benefit from more and supplements ought to be limited to "reasonable" amounts like 25mcg of inactive b12. That can be demonstrated as incorrect by lots of people and would be a death sentence for many. Many people need a quantity of unbound active b12s for their bodies to work. This sits on top of 60 years of research on inactive b12s that leads them to this conclusion. It's likely to be used to justify passing such laws.

What would people's health look like, on a large scale, if there hadn't been that lab mistake and b12 had been correctly identified as methylb12 and adenosylb12? What would 60 years of research look like if they had been researching the genuine active vitamin? Hydroxyb12 is only useful as a b12 vitamin to the limited extent the body can convert it to the two active b12s. Hydroxyb12 by itself does not act as the vitamin, though because of purely chemical reasons, it will detox cyanide.

 

[Freddd]

To everyone,
A friend in Britain just emailed me to tell me that a doctor in Europe, whose name I can't spell (Mitkovitz? something like that) is about to publish good research in a reputable journal proving beyond all doubt that CFS is caused by a retrovirus.
I am not jumping up and down yet, since I remember when first EBV was the cause, and then later on HHV6. I want to see good proof that this virus is not just another opportunist.
Could a retrovirus cause B12 problems? Why not? But, I would think our best bets would be AIDS drugs if this pans out.

klutzo

Hi Klutzo,

Actually I have every reason to believe that b12 crashes, some of which which look just like sudden onset infectious CFS/FMS, can indeed be triggered by any number of viruses, and even vaccinations. Traumatic injury can do it too. I had such triggering in the case of mono and a number of other unidentified viruses. The ones I recovered from took 6 months to a year. The most recent lasted 16 years and no recovery until I started mb12. Sometimes systems get tipped over and don't come back on their own. A direct treatment would be great.

 

[jenbooks]

Shelf Life

Apparently the hydroxy in water I bought is probably just that--water. Apparently the shelf life of hydroxy is not good in solution.

What in general is the shelf life of the forms of B12? Should I get some compounded--? If I do that in water how do I "take" it sublingually--or should I just swallow.

My folapro that I bought a couple years ago and kept in the fridge and never took has expired. I had actifolate too. I guess I will buy them again. Fredd you say metafolin is exactly the same as folapro? I thought Merck had licensed it only to Metagenics.

 

[keenly]

To everyone,
A friend in Britain just emailed me to tell me that a doctor in Europe, whose name I can't spell (Mitkovitz? something like that) is about to publish good research in a reputable journal proving beyond all doubt that CFS is caused by a retrovirus.
I am not jumping up and down yet, since I remember when first EBV was the cause, and then later on HHV6. I want to see good proof that this virus is not just another opportunist.
Could a retrovirus cause B12 problems? Why not? But, I would think our best bets would be AIDS drugs if this pans out.

klutzo

DON'T believe the hype!

CFS has MULTIPLE causes; NEVER ONE!

aids drugs KILL. HIV is a CON and aids is NOT what it's made to be.

 

[klutzo]

BusyBee

Hi BusyBee,
Thanks. That is exactly what I meant. I could not remember her name exactly. My short-term memory is non-existent.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -

Hi Jenbooks and dmHolmes? (please see above about no short-term memory and please forgive me if I got the wrong people),
If you are the ones who said I probably ramped up doses too fast, I agree. I cut back on the MB12, but kept the AB12 the same until I wash my hair, which will be on Monday after my exercises. That is when I am losing it, enough to clog the drain until I am standing in ankle high water. I started losing it before I started the MB12 though, so we shall see. I don't want to cut back on the AB12 unless I have to, since I feel it is helping, so I will wait and see if it happens again.


Now, I need to answer Fred, but can't remember one word of what he said. I have a seven day, four time drug dispenser AND a chart where I record my drugs taken and the times, and I still mess it up. If I am distracted by just one tiny thought inbetween taking a drug and recording it, I will forget. It is really scary, but typical in late-stage Lyme. Went back and looked and fixed a spelling mistake in one of your screen names.....
- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - -

Hi Freddd,
Yes, I had a serious head trauma and was left for dead by paramedics. This occured 13 months before the illness, but the Neurologist who evaluated my brain damage said the effects of head trauma can take two years to show up. The moral is don't sign any agreements with insurance companies before that!
Somewhere you mentioned laws to prohibit large doses of vitamins and supps. Codex Alimentarius is due to be implemented in the US in Dec. of 2009, or else we face fines from the WTO. If it is enforced, we are SOL as far as this protocol or any other involving nutrients. I corresponded with someone in Norway, where Codex is now in effect, and to get a lousy 50 tab bottle of only 15 IU's of synthetic vitamin E, which is all she can legally get now, she had to go to the doctor, get a prescription, and pay the equivalent of $54.

- - - - - -- - - - - -- - - -- - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - --

Hi Keenly,
I agree about AIDS and HIV. It's the UN/WHO/NWO depopulation agenda all the way, if that is what you are talking about.
I do not know much about AIDS drugs, however,and it sounds like you do. Regular anti-virals have proved disappointing, causing massive improvement for many people I know who've tried them, but it all disappears after a few months. That would be heart-breaking to feel so well and have it all taken away again, worse than not feeling better at all, at least for me.


klutzo

 

[Freddd]

Apparently the hydroxy in water I bought is probably just that--water. Apparently the shelf life of hydroxy is not good in solution.

What in general is the shelf life of the forms of B12? Should I get some compounded--? If I do that in water how do I "take" it sublingually--or should I just swallow.

My folapro that I bought a couple years ago and kept in the fridge and never took has expired. I had actifolate too. I guess I will buy them again. Fredd you say metafolin is exactly the same as folapro? I thought Merck had licensed it only to Metagenics.

Hi jenbooks,

metafolin is exactly the same as folapro? I thought Merck had licensed it only to Metagenics

Metafolin is Mercks brand name for methylfolate. Their patent is on making a stable form which is quite appropriate in a discussion of stability issues. Intially Metafolin was only available in kilogram quantities and only by prescription. As they have upped production they have licensed it to several different vitamin makers but require that the manufacturer adhere to strict quality standards like a pharamceutical maker. Solgar also produces a Metafolin product. Several other makers produce similar methylfolate isomers but I can't be sure how that varies and what it's stability is. Metafolin has been approved in the EU so other brands are certain to be on the way.

I find that Metafolin is very effective for me. I have not compared to other methylfolate products.


What in general is the shelf life of the forms of B12? Should I get some compounded--? If I do that in water how do I "take" it sublingually--or should I just swallow.

I have been told that the adenosylb12 is generally too fragile to make an injectable form. Mb12 is considered fragile in solution, it's primary breakdown to hydroxyb12 upon expsoure to light. My pharmacist says that in solution, depending upon light and dark, mb12 exists in an equilibrium with hydroxyb12 forming in the light and methylb12 reforming in the dark. I know when I was using a 10ml vile for a month the last week I could really tell the difference in potency but I wasn't being super careful about light. Since I have gone to wrapping the 5ml viles in foil immediately and freezing all but the one I'm using, I have no problem with potentcy even to 6 weeks. In the 20mg/ml concentration one can adjust to 100mcg in a 100 unit insulin syringe by being either on the line or between lines. The multiuse vials are required to have a small amount of preservative by state law.

B12, all kinds, is limited to about 1% absorbtion when taken orally and swallowed. Swallowing a sublingual basically stops absorbtion. Taken sublingually it takes 45 minutes to reach 15% absorbtion and 2 hours to reach 25%, at least with the 3 tested 5 star brands. The other brands don't absorb as well or are not potent for unknown reasons. Time in contact with tissue seems critical. I have contemplated how to do that with a liquid. To allow that I would try injecting the solution, 1/10ml is 2000mcg, into a piece of apple which then can be used subligually. That would also bring the pH to approximately similar to what the sublingual tablets are and keep the b12 in contact with tissues. The other way might be to swish it in the mouth for as long as possible.

It is possible to buy the crystals of any variety from Hongkong in 10 gram samples. The crystals, when sealed tightly and frozen, keep indefinitely. I don't know if the pharmacy I use regularly does hydroxyb12. Their mb12 is relatively inexpensive, under 50 cents/mg since they do a lot of it and don't have to recover costs of a packet of crystals all from 1 person.

 

[jenbooks]

Thanks Freddd. I don't want to inject unless necessary, so I really have to think about this. The sublinguals have crap in them that will bother my bladder almost instantly. We don't know if injecting into a piece of apple would degrade it when mixed into fruit flesh plus it wouldn't distribute equally throughout. Why does it stop absorbing when taken orally? That means all b complex supplements are useless? But that doesn't seem the case. I'm confused.

 

[Freddd]

Hi BusyBee,
Thanks. That is exactly what I meant. I could not remember her name exactly. My short-term memory is non-existent.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - -

Hi Jenbooks and dmHolmes? (please see above about no short-term memory and please forgive me if I got the wrong people),
If you are the ones who said I probably ramped up doses too fast, I agree. I cut back on the MB12, but kept the AB12 the same until I wash my hair, which will be on Monday after my exercises. That is when I am losing it, enough to clog the drain until I am standing in ankle high water. I started losing it before I started the MB12 though, so we shall see. I don't want to cut back on the AB12 unless I have to, since I feel it is helping, so I will wait and see if it happens again.


Now, I need to answer Fred, but can't remember one word of what he said. I have a seven day, four time drug dispenser AND a chart where I record my drugs taken and the times, and I still mess it up. If I am distracted by just one tiny thought inbetween taking a drug and recording it, I will forget. It is really scary, but typical in late-stage Lyme. Went back and looked and fixed a spelling mistake in one of your screen names.....
- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - -- - -

Hi Freddd,
Yes, I had a serious head trauma and was left for dead by paramedics. This occured 13 months before the illness, but the Neurologist who evaluated my brain damage said the effects of head trauma can take two years to show up. The moral is don't sign any agreements with insurance companies before that!
Somewhere you mentioned laws to prohibit large doses of vitamins and supps. Codex Alimentarius is due to be implemented in the US in Dec. of 2009, or else we face fines from the WTO. If it is enforced, we are SOL as far as this protocol or any other involving nutrients. I corresponded with someone in Norway, where Codex is now in effect, and to get a lousy 50 tab bottle of only 15 IU's of synthetic vitamin E, which is all she can legally get now, she had to go to the doctor, get a prescription, and pay the equivalent of $54.

- - - - - -- - - - - -- - - -- - - -- - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - --

Hi Keenly,
I agree about AIDS and HIV. It's the UN/WHO/NWO depopulation agenda all the way, if that is what you are talking about.
I do not know much about AIDS drugs, however,and it sounds like you do. Regular anti-virals have proved disappointing, causing massive improvement for many people I know who've tried them, but it all disappears after a few months. That would be heart-breaking to feel so well and have it all taken away again, worse than not feeling better at all, at least for me.


klutzo

Hi Klutzo,

Somewhere you mentioned laws to prohibit large doses of vitamins and supps. Codex Alimentarius is due to be implemented in the US in Dec. of 2009, or else we face fines from the WTO.

The Codex would be in direct violation of our 1992 Freedom of Nutrition Act I think it is called. Senetor Hatch in Utah is very interested in this. The study I mentioned was done in Holland about a year ago and was establishing the "active" b12 test that is becoming available. They concluded that because of the small amount that gets bound that no more could possibly be useful which is of course completely fallacious. This thinking grows out of 60 years of studies on inactive b12s because they don't produce any effects from unbound active b12s. If they tried to enforce the sale of only inactiove b12s in small quantities and such here in the USA it would go to the Supreme Court and take years. The Codex is being sued all over becasue it appears witten by and for the chemical companies and essentially bans all natural and effective vitamins.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks Freddd. I don't want to inject unless necessary, so I really have to think about this. The sublinguals have crap in them that will bother my bladder almost instantly. We don't know if injecting into a piece of apple would degrade it when mixed into fruit flesh plus it wouldn't distribute equally throughout. Why does it stop absorbing when taken orally? That means all b complex supplements are useless? But that doesn't seem the case. I'm confused.

Hi Jenbooks,

B12 is a most unusual situation. It's absorbtion from food is via intrinsic factor and haptocorrin and then specialized transport molecules. Via those pathways absorbtion can be about 10mcg. Beyond that or if that is not working direct absorbtion of this very large molecule by diffusion is about 1% which is why oral b12 can work even with PA. However, contact with the oral mucosa allows a higher rate of direct absorbtion so some sublinguals work. One would have to slice the apple so that the red part was exposed and in contact with tissue. I don't know if that would work. If it doesn't then it is swallowed and absorbed at 1%.

 

[Freddd]

My parrot, Zeus, did soemthing completely non-human today. He was being too quiet so I checked up on him. He had gotten hold of the tv remote control and carefully pecked off each little rubbery button with all the numbers and so on digging in to below level. And one piece of general advice, Do NOT under any circumstance hit your finger with a hammer.

 

[jenbooks]

Okay I see. I guess that's why Amy Yasko and Rich have recommended perque.

I've always been annoyed that vitamin supplements have fillers in them, some quite unhealthy. Enteric coated vitamin capsules have high levels of pthalates which are endocrine disrupters. A lot of the fillers put in, people are allergic or sensitized to. You'd think they could make pure stuff but they don't.

 

[klutzo]

Codex and Pets

Hi Freddd,
Do some Googling and reading on Codex and I think you'll be alarmed. Our membership in WTO takes precedence over all our domestic laws. If you are paying attention, you will have noticed that we are well on our way to becoming a multinational corporate fascist world government. Big Pharma wants to sell you drugs, not have you get better with natural substances. This Codex is part of it and it applies to food as well as supplements. Those who control the food supply, control the world. Sorry to be such a bummer but people need to wake up and soon.

klutzo

 

[Freddd]

Hi Freddd,
Do some Googling and reading on Codex and I think you'll be alarmed. Our membership in WTO takes precedence over all our domestic laws. If you are paying attention, you will have noticed that we are well on our way to becoming a multinational corporate fascist world government. Big Pharma wants to sell you drugs, not have you get better with natural substances. This Codex is part of it and it applies to food as well as supplements. Those who control the food supply, control the world. Sorry to be such a bummer but people need to wake up and soon.

klutzo

I've been reading the Codex for 3 years now and am alarmed. I really don't think that it will be accepted in this country without a massive legal battle. The WTO can't shove it down our throats by force of arms and I don't think it will happen any other way. If any attempt is made to enforce it a whole new congress and senate will be elected to overturn it. I HOPE I am right. In Holland they were getting ready to use that research as justification to pass laws to enable such ridiculous restrictions. It was not a forgone conclusion that was going to happen automatically. I have difficulty believing that the people in this country are stupid enough to accept such as the Codex. They have not passed any enabling legislation in congress.

 

[klutzo]

Codex Alimentarius and other horrors

Hi Freddd,
I am glad to know you are so well informed. Most people I know have never heard of Codex. As you know, more and more poorly done studies are being planted in the press that purport to show that vitamins and supplements either do not work or are actually harmful. This is no accident. It is preparation for getting the sheeple to accept Codex.
Believe me, I also hope VERY much that you are right. I was much encouraged by the recent mass protest over the "health" bill, but I also noticed how the corporate controlled mainstream media played it down and lied about the numbers of protestors.
I watched in slack-jawed amazement while the same controlling elite that came up with Codex, and most of the rest of the hell that exists on this planet now, calmly finished off their long planned economic collapse by stealing the wealth of what used to be the middle class in this country in broad daylight, while we did not even react. So, I think it could go either way here.
We personally lost enough that retirement will never happen now and our home has been devalued by 45% already. You can bet that I reacted, and I'm a sick old fogie. If I were young and healthy, I'd be organizing the fight just like I did back in the 60's in college. The softness and the level of unconcerned self-deception in our population are truly scary.
Sorry for taking this thread off-topic. I'll get off my soapbox now. Like I said, I have never wanted to be wrong so badly in my life.

klutzo