B-12 - The Hidden Story

[saint]

@saint, glad PeterPositive mentioned Vit C, I always forget it. C + Calcium help leach histamines out of the system. I take them in footbaths.

@LynnJ, I'm not sure how these three, rutin, royal jelly, mangosteen act. I think mangosteen is reocmmended for mast cell issues, which I have. I've been amazed at how effective, and how quickly, the rutin. Rutin and quercetin are the 2 things in the supplement Neuroprotek that pharmacologist and mast cell expert Dr. Theorharides designed to get into brain, co clearly it's got some sort of special role.

@madietodd, thanks for asking again. It sent me looking. So far, here's what I've found, from Fred.

Glad you mentioned about taking calcium - didn't know that had anything to do with histamine response. I have only focused on magnesium, and didn't bother taking calcium. I finally put all of my daily supplements in one container, so will add the calcium. How much do you take a day?

Also - do you think that the bad fatigue and blue mood have anything to do with the methylation response? I don't know what the heck is going on with myself. I'm also doing Andy Cutlers ALA protocol - 100 mg. ALA every 3 hours.

 

[Iquitos]

What did the licorice do that sent him to the hospital?

I know there's transdermal magnesium and potassium powder (for foot baths), so I may try those. Might still take some oral potassium, but... I dunno. I'm testing how I tolerate pouring the powder from the pills into my drinks rather than just swallowing said pills.

Hmmm. The dibencozide is the one that's good for muscle pain? I thought it was methyl B12, but I'm not positive. I'm taking both, though.

Ahmo, would you probably recommend the Rutin as the first thing to try?

Also, saint, I'm curious - how much B12 do you take?

My feet are so tingly today. Got some pins and needles too. At least it's not the unbearable burning, though. I know some people say that tingling can be a sign of the nerves healing, so who knows?

@saint According to master herbalist Steven Bruhner licorice raises blood pressure and I've found that to be true for me. He also recommends that it not be taken alone but with other herbals. Says they are synergistic and that licorice root is one of the top seven (?) herbal antivirals.

 

[saint]

Haven't heard that anywhere. Do you know what he recommends is supposed to be taken along with the licorice?

I have never had an issue with high blood pressure, and it is checked once a month. One thing that seems to be working right in my system...

Do you know anything about treating high fibrin levels or high c-reactive protein? Have both. Tried nattokinase for fibrin & was allergic to, but thought of trying the actual food "natto".

Haven't had a chance to research yet about c-reactive protein. I can't believe how complicated the different systems in the body are. It gets very overwhelming to someone not medically trained.

 

[Iquitos]

@ saint It depends on what you are trying to treat with licorice root. Chinese skull cap root, Elder, Ginger root (fresh, especially juiced), Houttuynia, Isatis, and Lomatium are the other 6 of his top 7 antiviral herbs.

Japanese knotweed root (for resveratrol) and cordyceps for mending nerve damage/myelin sheath repair and mitochondria protection.

We usually have low blood pressure due to low blood volume but after three months of taking licorice root my blood pressure was elevated a little. (But it could just have been the extreme pain of the blood pressure cuff that caused it to spike.)

I don't know anything about the other issues you mentioned, but I could have sailed right past those issues in the Buhner herbal antiviral and herbal antibiotic ebooks that I have read.

Cryptolepsis and Sida Acuta are recommeded for systemic infections.

Usnea is a "triple whammy." Antiviral, antibiotic and antiparasitic.

Red Root, Reishi and Rhodiola are three of 8 he recommends for immune support.

And he claims that tinctures of most of these are better than caps or pills.

 

[saint]

Thanks. I was trying to boost adrenal function, and settle my stomach. When fibro doc told me licorice was also antiviral, I thought that's an added benefit.

Resveratrol is in the ubiquinol that I take.

I bought the cordyceps awhile back to help with energy I think, but didn't know it was good for mending nerve damage. as well as mito. protection. I think I bought a cheaper brand, so don't know if it has to be standardized, as I don't think the one I bought is.

Tinctures better than pills? Wonder if he recommends they be standardized.

 

[ahmo]

@madietodd

It sounds like the L-carnitine is useful for people with neurological damage, which Freddd had in obvious and very distressing amounts. So likely this supplement just doesn't apply to me.

This is a really interesting observation. I had thoughts of another resource that backs up the neurological part of this that I intended to link for you. I'll still link it, even though this seems not to apply to you. I certainly had neurological issues. And I'm glad you don't!

This is a fascinating vid from mast cell expert Dr. Theoharides. They've uncovered a mast cell reaction in the hippocampus that floods the brain w/ histamines, leading to neurological symptoms. The factors involved sound to me to be real confirmation of Fred's emphasis on these components of the Deadlock Quartet. ATP, involved at the core of the reaction. I can't remember more , haven't watched the vid in some time, but saw a direct connection to his findings and Fred's when I viewed it.
‪‘Brain Allergy’ and ASD - T. Theoharides, MD, PhD‬https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q

@saint, I take all my supps according to self-testing. I use the cheapest form of Calcium, Ca carbonate, since I don't take it orally, but in footbaths. My doses tend to be either 1 tsp or 1 Tb, depends on whatever else is happening.

 

[LynnJ]

I've noticed something curious.

Right now I'm mainly taking Enzymatic Therapy B12 (which is frustrating because each dose is only 1000mcg, making it not very cost effective for me).

For the heck of it, I decided to add half of a 5000mcg Jarrow B12 in my mouth the other night and let it dissolve while I slept. When I woke up, I felt kinda nervous/anxious. Like I had a big exam or a job interview that afternoon, y'know?

This morning I let an entire Jarrow B12 dissolve in my mouth for a few hours, and once again I feel very anxious and on edge, my stomach is full of butterflies, etc.

This is basically what I experienced before that led my doctor to give me Zoloft. I know that the quality of Jarrow apparently plummeted, but why is it giving me these symptoms if it's not an effective B12? Jarrow is the only brand that gives me this anxiety/sense of fear. All the other brands of B12 I've tried usually just give me shortness of breath, a fast heart-rate, and some potassium/magnesium related chest and back pain.

Just an FYI - when I first started taking B12 1-1.5 years ago (gosh, I forget), I ONLY took Jarrow B12. And I chewed it. Just didn't know any better. For me, it was a miracle worker, save for the nasty side effects that I didn't understand.

I will say that my feet and shoulders feel pretty decent today, so... I dunno, guys. The Jarrow seems to be doing something. And it's a bit confusing given what I'm reading here.

 

[ahmo]

@LynnJ Very interesting. thanks for reporting this. I'm now using Country Life 5 mg B12.

 

[PeterPositive]

@LynnJ Did you jump from 1000mcg to 2500mcg?
If that's the case the nervousness is easily explained. Methyl-B12 does that to a lot of people, myself included. Now I can take 2500mcg but it took me more than 1 year to get there starting at 500mcg and building it up slowly. I also discontinued for some time when I was more sensitive to it.

I too find the Enzymatic a bit inconvenient, and too sweet, really too much.

 

[LynnJ]

@LynnJ Did you jump from 1000mcg to 2500mcg?
If that's the case the nervousness is easily explained. Methyl-B12 does that to a lot of people, myself included. Now I can take 2500mcg but it took me more than 1 year to get there starting at 500mcg and building it up slowly. I also discontinued for some time when I was more sensitive to it.

I too find the Enzymatic a bit inconvenient, and too sweet, really too much.

Oh no, I've been taking anywhere between 4000-7000mcg total of B12 for a while. I think I may have even hit 10000mcg a few days with the methyl-b12 and dibencozide combined. I'm only noticing this particular symptom with the Jarrow. Given my successful history with it, it's just...interesting. Because most everyone here says it's no longer a good brand.

Right now I don't necessarily feel FEARFUL. I'd describe it more as a kid about to get on a plane for Disney. Just jittery and sort of overly energized and anxious, but not "nervous" like I was this morning.

 

[whodathunkit]

I needed big doses of mB12 for a while. They did me good and I felt great. But after I destabilized myself with SAM-e and couldn't get quite right again I began experimenting with mB12 and took my dose down substantially just to see what would happen. Now I'm doing better (sleep quality has returned, that little nervous edge is gone, etc.).

I quit taking Enzy lozenges for the reasons @PeterPositive noted, and if I do sublingual it's now only Country Life 6304.

Maybe Jarrow changed manufacturing process again. It used to be a very good brand of B12, but then it changed suddenly. That happens sometimes, especially with supplements manufacturers...they change things but don't tell their customers. So one day you notice something different with your reaction but don't know where it's coming from. Maybe Jarrow got a bunch of complaints that their B12 wasn't any good any more, lost business, so they switched it back.

I sort of wish I was uber-sensitive to small amounts of mB12...I'd give Jarrow a whirl to see if my body gave me any feedback on it. But sadly, I'm not really sensitive to mB12 unless it's by injection or I'm megadosing.

Edited to add: @LynnJ, it could be the dibencozide. I found that to give me a big boost in the beginning of my protocol. Very stimulating.

 

[LynnJ]

I'd like to use Enzymatic since it's apparently got that 5-star rating, but they really need to offer the option of a higher dosage. I'm going through it like water, and I've had some bad days where I realize I didn't take enough. It's not convenient.

Would it probably be correct to say that different brands of B12 work differently for people? I know that's often (if not USUALLY) the case with medications, but does it hold true for vitamins as well?

I mean, is it possible for Jarrow to be ineffective for one person, and excellent for the other? It still gets great reviews on Amazon, and sure, in some cases it could be a placebo effect, but...

I'm trying to really monitor my reactions. I've been taking dibencozide for a while now and only ever noticed the heart-racing and shortness of breath. For some reason out of the brands I've tried, it's only the Jarrow that causes the anxiety/nervousness/hyperness. Wish I knew the significance of that.

I'll keep playing around with it and see what happens. Not much else you can do!

 

[howirecovered]

I've noticed something curious.

Right now I'm mainly taking Enzymatic Therapy B12 (which is frustrating because each dose is only 1000mcg, making it not very cost effective for me).

For the heck of it, I decided to add half of a 5000mcg Jarrow B12 in my mouth the other night and let it dissolve while I slept. When I woke up, I felt kinda nervous/anxious. Like I had a big exam or a job interview that afternoon, y'know?

thanks for sharing that, I've been thinking of posting about this issue also for a while. Recently I ran out of enzymatic therapy and happen to have the Jarrow 5000s lying around. So I switched for about a week and felt like my methylation continued to burn bright. I did take slightly more Jarrow in terms of milligrams and almost felt like I could tell I was getting more.

I like the Jarrow better for having less sweetener in it. Since I have these things in my mouth all day, I really don't need any more artificial junk than necessary.

So I went back on and enzymatic therapy for a few days and switched back again to Jarrow and I think I'm going to stick with Jarrow.

 

[pela]

Here is a link to the original thread discussing the change to Jarrow B12 two years ago. It might shed some light in the recent questions about it:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/

 

[LynnJ]

So over the past year or so I've encountered a few people/articles saying that sublingual B12 isn't really as necessary as people think it is. Here's one article as an example.

A brief excerpt:

"So what about sublingual, or lozenge-forms of vitamin B12? It turns out that they work, but only because you end up swallowing the vitamin B12 as the lozenge dissolves, allowing it to be absorbed in the gut just as if it was a normal tablet or capsule.

You were concerned that swallowing the vitamin B12 was 'wasting it.' Ironically, the opposite is true.

Buy a lozenge if you wish, but don’t be misled into thinking it will result in sublingual absorption. What is important is that it is a high dose."

What do people think about this?

 

[whodathunkit]

I personally don't think this is correct, at least not for mB12. Maybe for adB12, or hydroxy or cyano forms (cyano definitely not recommended here), but not mB12. The Anabol Naturals adB12 used to come in a really high-dose oral capsule, and I suspect that was because it could pass intact through the stomach, at least in high doses. I have never taken it orally even though I have capsules, and experienced immediate and good effect with it between cheek and gums (buccal pouch).

But mB12 is pretty delicate and easily damaged. I take injectable form and even my pharmacist said protect it from extremes. Stomach acid is an extreme.

Also worth noting is that buccal pouch is probably superior to actually putting it under the tongue (sublingual). Sublingual allows things to dissolve too fast and makes it harder to hold things in the mouth as long as necessary to achieve effective absorption. You get a lot of saliva with sublingual and want to swallow after about five minutes. With buccal delivery that's minimized.

Alternate forms of delivery (sublingual/buccal, topical, patches, etc.) are becoming more and more popular even in mainstream medicine now. If oral delivery were so effective, I suspect this would not be the case.

Just my $0.02.

 

[ahmo]

Also, absorbing it orally depends on a good amount of intrinsic factor in stomach/gut (?) to convert it. I think that's a problem for many of us, tho I don't know much about it.

 

[Valentijn]

methyl-B12 is the bigger form of it. Some of it might get absorbed under the tongue, but it's almost certainly too large to get absorbed in the gums.

 

[PeterPositive]

methyl-B12 is the bigger form of it. Some of it might get absorbed under the tongue, but it's almost certainly too large to get absorbed in the gums.

Can you provide more details?
I thought slowly dissolving between gum and cheek did provide better absorption. I thought it would make sense, because under the tongue there's more saliva and the tablet dissolves too quickly and gets partly ingested.

Didn't Freddd test the difference between the two modalities (tongue vs cheek/gum) using urine tests?

 

[Valentijn]

Can you provide more details?
I thought slowly dissolving between gum and cheek did provide better absorption. I thought it would make sense, because under the tongue there's more saliva and the tablet dissolves too quickly and gets partly ingested.

Didn't Freddd test the difference between the two modalities (tongue vs cheek/gum) using urine tests?

There's research out there about sublingual and buccal absorption limitations, and the size of the B12.

It's something I looked at a couple years ago, and basically no one has proven that sublingual or buccal absorption is superior over just swallowing it, though I doubt they looked at people with gut issues either. But based solely on the size issue, sublingual absorption isn't going to be more than partially effective, and buccal absorption probably isn't effective at all.

I suggest searching on google scholar if you want more information. I have no interest in arguing the point, since I'm not at all bothered if people want to stick B12 under their gum. It all ends up in the right place eventually anyhow.