PeterPositive
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@Valentijn: thanks.
B-12 - The Hidden Story
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whodathunkit
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Worth noting is that there's also a lot of research out there about problems with assimilation in the vast majority of people when ingesting oral mB12. Hence the development and popularity of sublingual mB12. mB12 may be the biggest B12 molecule, but that doesn't mean much when you consider how relatively delicate it is when compared to most other substances. Or when you consider that many of us probably have digestive problems that preclude being able to absorb it.
I'm new to methylation but not at all new to supplements or natural health, and *everything* I've read over the past couple of decades points to oral ingestion being the absolute least effective mode of delivery for mB12. To get an effective (or maybe we should say "affective") dose of B12 into blood stream from oral delivery, you have to swallow a significantly larger amount than you would use by sublingual delivery.
@PeterPositive: IIRC, Freddd's urine tests were not lab tests. He was going on changes in his urine color by observing it when he was B12 depleted, full of B12 by injection, and also with buccal/sublingual dosing. I tend to believe him because I've noted the same kinds of color changes in my own urine when high-dosing injectable mB12, although I've never been able to take my buccal dose up to the point where it might affect my urine. I get tired of having it in my mouth so always quit well before the point where I could possibly absorb that much. To observe urine changes with buccal mB12 apparently takes quite a lot of it, too.
But sublingual/buccal delivery is also a moot point if you don't leave it in your mouth long enough for some of it to absorb.
But as Valentjin says, research it if you're on the fence. For myself, I tend not to appeal too much to authority when it comes to stuff like this. I'll frequently listen to an experienced layperson who's lived it over "experts" who look throuh microscopes and theorize.
Mainstream medicine and research into supplements is so far behind where it should be that frequently some of the stuff they come out within relation to supplements is meaningless. Or worse, it's deliberately slanted to bolster the agenda of pharmaceutical companies who would like to see supplements regulated more heavily (dispensed only through physicians) or outlawed all together. It's in the best interest of their bottom line to have consumers think that supplements are useless, or at least less useless than they really are, and we can't treat ourselves except through their products. Or, for example, they'd also like us to think that there's no difference between folic acid and methylfolate. Stuff like that.
Again, just my $0.02.
I'm new to methylation but not at all new to supplements or natural health, and *everything* I've read over the past couple of decades points to oral ingestion being the absolute least effective mode of delivery for mB12. To get an effective (or maybe we should say "affective") dose of B12 into blood stream from oral delivery, you have to swallow a significantly larger amount than you would use by sublingual delivery.
@PeterPositive: IIRC, Freddd's urine tests were not lab tests. He was going on changes in his urine color by observing it when he was B12 depleted, full of B12 by injection, and also with buccal/sublingual dosing. I tend to believe him because I've noted the same kinds of color changes in my own urine when high-dosing injectable mB12, although I've never been able to take my buccal dose up to the point where it might affect my urine. I get tired of having it in my mouth so always quit well before the point where I could possibly absorb that much. To observe urine changes with buccal mB12 apparently takes quite a lot of it, too.
But sublingual/buccal delivery is also a moot point if you don't leave it in your mouth long enough for some of it to absorb.
But as Valentjin says, research it if you're on the fence. For myself, I tend not to appeal too much to authority when it comes to stuff like this. I'll frequently listen to an experienced layperson who's lived it over "experts" who look throuh microscopes and theorize.
Mainstream medicine and research into supplements is so far behind where it should be that frequently some of the stuff they come out within relation to supplements is meaningless. Or worse, it's deliberately slanted to bolster the agenda of pharmaceutical companies who would like to see supplements regulated more heavily (dispensed only through physicians) or outlawed all together. It's in the best interest of their bottom line to have consumers think that supplements are useless, or at least less useless than they really are, and we can't treat ourselves except through their products. Or, for example, they'd also like us to think that there's no difference between folic acid and methylfolate. Stuff like that.
Again, just my $0.02.
PeterPositive
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I stumbled upon this article, which is about cyanocobalamin, but I think it is interesting to show some figures about sublingual lozenges vs injections.
http://www.google.com/patents/US6255294
Of course not all lozenges are made equal and there seem to be other variables. But this seems to explain why some people can get the best effects only when taking very high doses such 10, 15, 25mg of sublingual B12.
If the figures from the paper are realistic it will take lots of lozenges to reach the effect of a 1000mcg or 5000mcg injection.
http://www.google.com/patents/US6255294
Of course not all lozenges are made equal and there seem to be other variables. But this seems to explain why some people can get the best effects only when taking very high doses such 10, 15, 25mg of sublingual B12.
If the figures from the paper are realistic it will take lots of lozenges to reach the effect of a 1000mcg or 5000mcg injection.
whodathunkit
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I think Freddd said that he was doing buccal absorption of as many as 20 5000mcg lozenges per day to try to replicate the serum levels he would achieve with like 30 mg/day of injectable. Something like that. So yeah, lozenges are not anywhere near as viable as injections for getting a decent amount of mB12 into the bloodstream.
But is *oral* dosing with B12 comparable to or better than *sublingual/buccal* delivery? That's the question.
Based on what I've read for the last 20 years about damage especially to mB12 while passing through the stomach, and also about B12 absorption problems in the digestive tract for many if not most people even if it is able to pass safely through the stomach, I'd say no. But I don't know for sure. Valentjin could be right.
But is *oral* dosing with B12 comparable to or better than *sublingual/buccal* delivery? That's the question.
Based on what I've read for the last 20 years about damage especially to mB12 while passing through the stomach, and also about B12 absorption problems in the digestive tract for many if not most people even if it is able to pass safely through the stomach, I'd say no. But I don't know for sure. Valentjin could be right.
ahmo
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Where's the APPLAUSE emoticon??
LynnJ
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If it interests anyone, I can say that I was chewing and swallowing one 5000mcg Jarrow B12 every day, and within one month (maybe a little less) I began having bad potassium/magnesium-related symptoms (tachycardia, shortness of breath, anxiety). And at the same time, the symptoms I was taking the B12 for resolved.
This time around, I've been using various brands of sublingual B12 and letting them dissolve in my mouth for 45 minutes to 2 hours (or longer), and I'm still struggling with my neuropathy and severe muscle pain.
Make of that what you will. I'm going to continue experimenting with letting them dissolve vs. chewing.
I never notice any color changes in my urine with B12 either. I think it's B2 that causes a noticeable difference, but not B12.
I did read another article recently saying CHEWING the B12 results in better absorption rather than just swallowing the pill whole (which I've never tried). Maybe I can find it again...
This time around, I've been using various brands of sublingual B12 and letting them dissolve in my mouth for 45 minutes to 2 hours (or longer), and I'm still struggling with my neuropathy and severe muscle pain.
Make of that what you will. I'm going to continue experimenting with letting them dissolve vs. chewing.
I never notice any color changes in my urine with B12 either. I think it's B2 that causes a noticeable difference, but not B12.
I did read another article recently saying CHEWING the B12 results in better absorption rather than just swallowing the pill whole (which I've never tried). Maybe I can find it again...
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whodathunkit
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@LynnJ: it takes A LOT of mB12 to provoke color change in the urine. And then it's not the bright fluorescent yellow of B2 but a deeper yellow, like more an orangey/pink yellow. At least, that's my experience.
PeterPositive
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You mean 30mg or 30mcg of injectable?
20 x 5000mcg = 100mg ... that would mean roughly 1/3rd absorption rate. But I guess you meant 30mcg of injectable, which means 1/3000th
whodathunkit
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@PeterPositive: nope, I meant 30 mg/day injection. And 100mg sublingual/buccal/day. Freddd posted in several places that's that's what, although right now I don't remember where and am too tired to look at my notes to see if I have a link.. I do remember he was doing multiple injects of at least 12.5mg per day at one point. Then he decided he was getting more out of his buccal method and switched to high-dosing that.
Don't forget Freddd is kind of unique in that (IIRC) he had a lot of multiple genetic problems that you don't see all at the same time in many people. Many have some, but not many have as many as he did, if that makes sense. Gotta love the English language.
He was experimenting on himself with high dose mB12 to see if it couldn't help him heal from some brain and cord damage that he'd suffered over the years due to his mutations and incorrect medical care, etc.
Some may say that Freddd's uniqueness and plethora of problems make his methods inapplicable to the rest of us, but I tend to think the opposite. I think it actually makes him a better litmus test for many if most things, because it worked for him the people who are "healthier" will probably respond better to some modified version of what he did. The same kind of rationale is used to justify using animals in experiments, in fact. Freddd is/was sort of a canary in a coal mine, as it were. But that's just my opinion. YMMV.
That said, I do NOT in any way advocate that much mB12 for anyone. It's a personal choice and up to what someone can tolerate. Freddd chose to experiment on himself in that way but not recommended. I myself did well on 5mg/day injectable mB12 for a few months, but it seemed like after that large amount succeeded in making up my systemic deficiency, my body let me know I didn't need that much any more. I'm back down to 1mg/day. I may go off injections compltely in the future but right now I'm still liking that amount. That's the extent of my experimenting with high dose. I was trying to see if maybe mB12 might help my hearing loss a bit but it didn't, not really. Maybe a tiny bit but not worth pushing he dosage further.
Also worth noting is that there may be something to Ben Lynch's contention that excess mB12 turns into a free radical if it's not balanced with the correct amount of folate. I haven't looked at that too closel but would like to in the future.
Don't forget Freddd is kind of unique in that (IIRC) he had a lot of multiple genetic problems that you don't see all at the same time in many people. Many have some, but not many have as many as he did, if that makes sense. Gotta love the English language.
He was experimenting on himself with high dose mB12 to see if it couldn't help him heal from some brain and cord damage that he'd suffered over the years due to his mutations and incorrect medical care, etc.
Some may say that Freddd's uniqueness and plethora of problems make his methods inapplicable to the rest of us, but I tend to think the opposite. I think it actually makes him a better litmus test for many if most things, because it worked for him the people who are "healthier" will probably respond better to some modified version of what he did. The same kind of rationale is used to justify using animals in experiments, in fact. Freddd is/was sort of a canary in a coal mine, as it were. But that's just my opinion. YMMV.
That said, I do NOT in any way advocate that much mB12 for anyone. It's a personal choice and up to what someone can tolerate. Freddd chose to experiment on himself in that way but not recommended. I myself did well on 5mg/day injectable mB12 for a few months, but it seemed like after that large amount succeeded in making up my systemic deficiency, my body let me know I didn't need that much any more. I'm back down to 1mg/day. I may go off injections compltely in the future but right now I'm still liking that amount. That's the extent of my experimenting with high dose. I was trying to see if maybe mB12 might help my hearing loss a bit but it didn't, not really. Maybe a tiny bit but not worth pushing he dosage further.
Also worth noting is that there may be something to Ben Lynch's contention that excess mB12 turns into a free radical if it's not balanced with the correct amount of folate. I haven't looked at that too closel but would like to in the future.
PeterPositive
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@whodathunkit thanks for the clarification
[quote="whodathunkit]
He was experimenting on himself with high dose mB12 to see if it couldn't help him heal from some brain and cord
Also worth noting is that there may be something to Ben Lynch's contention that excess mB12 turns into a free radical if it's not balanced with the correct amount of folate. [/quote]
Link please? I have never heard of such a thing. I'm injecting 10mg hydroxyb12 intramusculair twice weekly and probably quite a bit of it converts to mb12.
He was experimenting on himself with high dose mB12 to see if it couldn't help him heal from some brain and cord
Also worth noting is that there may be something to Ben Lynch's contention that excess mB12 turns into a free radical if it's not balanced with the correct amount of folate. [/quote]
Link please? I have never heard of such a thing. I'm injecting 10mg hydroxyb12 intramusculair twice weekly and probably quite a bit of it converts to mb12.
whodathunkit
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@Thinktank: I don't have the link. It's actually something I read here on this board, from @adreno I think. I hadn't ever heard of it, either...I haven't had time to track it down on Ben Lynch's site. adreno didn't have the link, either.
I'm not terribly worried about it...I'm still injecting between 1mg and 2.5mg straight mB12 per day, so I'm probably equivalent to you as far as mB12 intake. But I'm also still taking quite a bit of folate.
I mention it only because I thought it worth mentioning in case, five years down the road, it becomes an indisputable fact, and it turns out that the ratio of mB12 to folate really does matter. I'm keeping it in the back of my mind. That's frequently how knowledge goes...somebody comes up with a cutting edge/controversial idea that kind of riles people up and they don't like the implications. I've personally always heard that whatever excess B12 you take is harmless and your body just eliminates it through urine if it can't be used. I like that.
But that might not be the case. It frequently happens that over time a controversial idea becomes a proven, accepted fact. I always trot out the analogy of viruses causing cancer to illustrate this phenomenon. 30 years ago when I was first exposed to that idea, most of mainstream medicine thought it was ludicrous. Now we have vaccines against viruses that cause cancer.
So it could be that the idea that excess mB12 in the presence of too little folate does turn into a free radical. Or not. We just don't know right now.
You're more than welcome to research Lynch's site to see if you can find it, if you're concerned. I'd personally like to know the straight of it, myself. I just haven't had time to do the research. A lot of information on Lynch's site is in video format, and internet videos are really hard for me because they aren't captioned and I'm hearing impaired. I typically have to watch an uncaptioned video 3- 4 times before I can get out of it what a normal hearing person can get out of it watching it just once. But I wouldn't mind having the link, myself, if someone could supply it.
I'm not terribly worried about it...I'm still injecting between 1mg and 2.5mg straight mB12 per day, so I'm probably equivalent to you as far as mB12 intake. But I'm also still taking quite a bit of folate.
I mention it only because I thought it worth mentioning in case, five years down the road, it becomes an indisputable fact, and it turns out that the ratio of mB12 to folate really does matter. I'm keeping it in the back of my mind. That's frequently how knowledge goes...somebody comes up with a cutting edge/controversial idea that kind of riles people up and they don't like the implications. I've personally always heard that whatever excess B12 you take is harmless and your body just eliminates it through urine if it can't be used. I like that.
But that might not be the case. It frequently happens that over time a controversial idea becomes a proven, accepted fact. I always trot out the analogy of viruses causing cancer to illustrate this phenomenon. 30 years ago when I was first exposed to that idea, most of mainstream medicine thought it was ludicrous. Now we have vaccines against viruses that cause cancer.
So it could be that the idea that excess mB12 in the presence of too little folate does turn into a free radical. Or not. We just don't know right now.
You're more than welcome to research Lynch's site to see if you can find it, if you're concerned. I'd personally like to know the straight of it, myself. I just haven't had time to do the research. A lot of information on Lynch's site is in video format, and internet videos are really hard for me because they aren't captioned and I'm hearing impaired. I typically have to watch an uncaptioned video 3- 4 times before I can get out of it what a normal hearing person can get out of it watching it just once. But I wouldn't mind having the link, myself, if someone could supply it.
LynnJ
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Yikes. I hope that's not true. I'm still struggling quite a bit with folate. I tried taking large doses (3500-5000mcg) and it caused my already severe muscle pain to worsen. I went off it for a while, just took maybe 200mcg again today for the first time and feel a little bit worse than I did this morning.
Very frustrating.
Very frustrating.
PeterPositive
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@whodathunkit in this podcast Dr.Lynch responds to a patient that is having mB12 injections and discusses glutathione and lithium for protecting B12 from oxidation and transporting it into the cells.
At the end he also touches on folate, remembering that adequate levels of folate are necessary to utilize B12 correctly.
Other than that he's not saying anything specific about B12 turning into free radicals.
At the end he also touches on folate, remembering that adequate levels of folate are necessary to utilize B12 correctly.
Other than that he's not saying anything specific about B12 turning into free radicals.
whodathunkit
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@PeterPositive: thanks for the link AND for the reassuring info about B12 oxidation!! I'll try to listen to it later. Worth noting is that podcasts are worse than videos for me so I may or may not get anything out of it. If I can't see your lips moving you might as well talk to a doorknob. I wish to high heaven people would include written transcripts with things.
@LynnJ: I haven't heard anything about oxidation of folate being a problem, and in fact have heard just the opposite. Deplin is frequently prescribed in very high doses without any added B12. The thing with B12 was just a passing remark I heard from someone else. Kinda wish I hadn't mentioned it, as these kinds of remarks can get blown way out of proportion. No worries on folate, though.
I'll try to listen to it later. Worth noting is that podcasts are worse than videos for me so I may or may not get anything out of it. If I can't see your lips moving you might as well talk to a doorknob. I wish to high heaven people would include written transcripts with things. @LynnJ: I haven't heard anything about oxidation of folate being a problem, and in fact have heard just the opposite. Deplin is frequently prescribed in very high doses without any added B12. The thing with B12 was just a passing remark I heard from someone else. Kinda wish I hadn't mentioned it, as these kinds of remarks can get blown way out of proportion. No worries on folate, though.
Freddd never had his mutations tested, despite numerous requests that he got them done so that we could compare, just saying that he could not afford to spend 99 dollars on it and that he didn't think he needed to know.
I don't think they were as bad as some of us as he had no problems taking the small doses many of us have struggled with.
(He will most likely post now to reply to this)
I don't think they were as bad as some of us as he had no problems taking the small doses many of us have struggled with.
(He will most likely post now to reply to this)
I can't answer for Fred, but I can see his side of the argument for not bothering to have the test done -- he's worked out what works on the basis of his own trials and what actually works for him, and quite a few others.
I can't argue with anyone who has used the mutation testing to really improve their quality for health, but I've generally found testing tends to open up more questions than answers (and I've done lost of testing over the years, but not mutations for no other reason that I'm done with testing for the time being.). My own improvements have come largely from Fred's protocol and approach, but through my own trail and error and many, many road blocks.
Maybe it isn't a reason for not having testing done, but I'm not sure what conclusions you could actually draw from Fred's test, if he were to have them done -- is the science on mutations and it's guidance on supplementation strong enough to contradict what may actually work by trail and error?
A little philosophical, but a point nonetheless.
I can't argue with anyone who has used the mutation testing to really improve their quality for health, but I've generally found testing tends to open up more questions than answers (and I've done lost of testing over the years, but not mutations for no other reason that I'm done with testing for the time being.). My own improvements have come largely from Fred's protocol and approach, but through my own trail and error and many, many road blocks.
Maybe it isn't a reason for not having testing done, but I'm not sure what conclusions you could actually draw from Fred's test, if he were to have them done -- is the science on mutations and it's guidance on supplementation strong enough to contradict what may actually work by trail and error?
A little philosophical, but a point nonetheless.
@LynnJ Apols if you've already covered this: but have you tried increasing potassium or l-carnitine to aid he muscle pain after taking Methylfolate?
Early on I was very critical of Fred suggesting the answer to every symptom increase was taking more potassium or methylfolate, as if this was just to fit everything into his theory; but over time I have increasingly found that many symptoms can be honed back down to a need to increase potassium or methylfolate! (Assuming of course other aspects of his protocol are in place.)
Early on I was very critical of Fred suggesting the answer to every symptom increase was taking more potassium or methylfolate, as if this was just to fit everything into his theory; but over time I have increasingly found that many symptoms can be honed back down to a need to increase potassium or methylfolate! (Assuming of course other aspects of his protocol are in place.)
LynnJ
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I did try increasing potassium, to the point where I got sick to my stomach.
The thing that helped relieve the severe folate-related pain was hydroxy B12. I've actually discovered that the hydroxy B12 (Perque 2000mcg) seems to relieve my symptoms (neuropathy in feet, terrible shoulder/clavicle/upper arm pain) better. I've done a fair amount of research here and some people say hydroxy B12 is useless (or can actually make matters WORSE), while others say it's a perfectly good option that works better for some people compared to methyl B12.
As usual, it's all very confusing.
For those of you who reap benefits from B12 - whether you have a deficiency or not - do you find that it wears off very quickly if you forget a dose?
And secondly, has anyone tried B12 drops? http://www.holisticheal.com/hydroxy-b12-mega-drops.html
I'm kind of debating trying yet another doctor.... I'm so tired of the problems with my feet and shoulders I could scream. I wouldn't mind trying hydroxy B12 injections to be honest. But there aren't many naturopaths by me and I've heard horror stories about how expensive they are. Pain Management doctor, maybe?
Given how much the B12 helps my issues, I really hope it's the ultimate cause/solution here, because everything else I've tried has failed. Cortisone injection, chiropractors, massage, physical therapy, Naproxen, x-rays, an MRI of my neck... Nothing! And it just makes no sense, because this isn't like a minor muscle ache. It's the worst pain I've ever had.
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drob31
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