B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sasha]

It seems that Freddd is away so hopefully he'll reply to you soon. However looking at the ratio of Calcium to Magnesium you're taking I wonder if that's the problem. You're taking twice as much calcium and I believe that Rich has said that most people with CFS are deficient in Mg so you don't really need to be supplementing with calcium. Also, many supplements contain added calcium (eg Ester-C).

Taking too much calcium can cause a magnesium dificiency which can result in weakness and muscle pains as you've described. Also, I think magnesium helps with the absorption of potassium which can mean the symptoms of deficiency can be very similar.

Thanks, April - I will look for an Mg-only supplement. Any views on how much/best version? I did a bit of googling a few days ago on Mg and diarrhoea in case Mg was the culprit and found this by a Dr Carol Dean:

Generally, magnesium will cause diarrhea because not enough is being absorbed into your bloodstream. If it doesnt make it into your bloodstream it ends up in your colon where it has a laxative effect.

Here are four strategies to stop magnesium from causing diarrhea

1. Dont take all your magnesium at one time. Have two or three smaller doses throughout the day.
2. Try taking your magnesium with high fiber meals. We are meant to derive magnesium from food which slows down its absorption.
3. Dont take magnesium with meals. Yes, I know I just said take it with meals. That works for some and not for others. Fiber may bind up the magnesium too well preventing your gut from absorbing it. So try taking your magnesium on an empty stomach.
4. Try different types of magnesium. Youre probably using citrate. You can also try dimalate capsules which release slower. Magnesium oil is a great alternative as it bypasses your digestive system. And angstrom magnesium appears to absorb the best because its been broken down finer.
​

I've been using citrate. I hadn't heard of Mg oil - I'm wondering if I should try it (if I can find it! Some of these things don't seem so easy to find in the UK).

ETA: I've just ordered some Mg malate because I'm in a hurry to feel better! But I was surprised to find the dose seems huge compared to the 250 mg Mg in the Ca/Mg tablets - it's 1250 mg yielding 833 mg malic acid, 1-3 daily so presumably 417 mg/tablet. Any suggestions about dose & whether I should titrate up and what symptoms/reduction in symptoms I should look for gratefully received!

 

[aprilk1869]

Thanks, April - I will look for an Mg-only supplement. Any views on how much/best version? I did a bit of googling a few days ago on Mg and diarrhoea in case Mg was the culprit and found this by a Dr Carol Dean:

Generally, magnesium will cause diarrhea because not enough is being absorbed into your bloodstream. If it doesnt make it into your bloodstream it ends up in your colon where it has a laxative effect.

Here are four strategies to stop magnesium from causing diarrhea

1. Dont take all your magnesium at one time. Have two or three smaller doses throughout the day.
2. Try taking your magnesium with high fiber meals. We are meant to derive magnesium from food which slows down its absorption.
3. Dont take magnesium with meals. Yes, I know I just said take it with meals. That works for some and not for others. Fiber may bind up the magnesium too well preventing your gut from absorbing it. So try taking your magnesium on an empty stomach.
4. Try different types of magnesium. Youre probably using citrate. You can also try dimalate capsules which release slower. Magnesium oil is a great alternative as it bypasses your digestive system. And angstrom magnesium appears to absorb the best because its been broken down finer.
​

I've been using citrate. I hadn't heard of Mg oil - I'm wondering if I should try it (if I can find it! Some of these things don't seem so easy to find in the UK).

ETA: I've just ordered some Mg malate because I'm in a hurry to feel better! But I was surprised to find the dose seems huge compared to the 250 mg Mg in the Ca/Mg tablets - it's 1250 mg yielding 833 mg malic acid, 1-3 daily so presumably 417 mg/tablet. Any suggestions about dose & whether I should titrate up and what symptoms/reduction in symptoms I should look for gratefully received!

Sasha, first of all I should point out that I don't actually have CFS, my parents are on Freddd's protocol. My dad has had problems with peripheral neuropathy, insomnia, restlessness, hot and cold sweats, depression, sensitivity to light etc. The nerves are healing up really well and the other symptoms seem to be completely gone. My mum was officially diagnosed with MS a number of years ago but I think she was misdiagnosed and simply has nutritional deficiencies. She's done mildly well on the protocol but I feel we need to address other areas such as trace minerals. So we're going to go down the line of ordering tests.

Anyway, my dad's been taking mag chloride drops mixed into fruit juice which he sips during the day. My mum take mag malate (4 capsules a day). They haven't had any problems with any of the supplements so I'm not sure the best way to avoid problems. I do know that there's been mention here of taking vit B6 (P5P) along with magnesium as they seem to work very well together. The combo is often used for autism.

I've been thinking about buying Ancient Minerals in the future. It's mainly mag chloride but also has some trace minerals in it. The good thing about Ancient Minerals is that it comes from the Zechstein sea which is subterranean and hasn't been exposed to toxic elements such as mercury and lead. It can be bought in gel and spray form plus bath flakes.

 

[curecfs]

Hi everyone, I'm getting ready to place my order for the protocol, including the co-factors (thank you Freddd for putting this all together and helping people!). My question is, are there any antioxidants or supplements to help with potential detox/die-off that you would recommend as well? I'm thinking things like pycnogenol, chlorella, curcumin, astraxanthin, milk thistle (for liver). Any experiences or opinions? Thank you!

 

[Sasha]

Sasha, first of all I should point out that I don't actually have CFS, my parents are on Freddd's protocol. My dad has had problems with peripheral neuropathy, insomnia, restlessness, hot and cold sweats, depression, sensitivity to light etc. The nerves are healing up really well and the other symptoms seem to be completely gone. My mum was officially diagnosed with MS a number of years ago but I think she was misdiagnosed and simply has nutritional deficiencies. She's done mildly well on the protocol but I feel we need to address other areas such as trace minerals. So we're going to go down the line of ordering tests.

Anyway, my dad's been taking mag chloride drops mixed into fruit juice which he sips during the day. My mum take mag malate (4 capsules a day). They haven't had any problems with any of the supplements so I'm not sure the best way to avoid problems. I do know that there's been mention here of taking vit B6 (P5P) along with magnesium as they seem to work very well together. The combo is often used for autism.

I've been thinking about buying Ancient Minerals in the future. It's mainly mag chloride but also has some trace minerals in it. The good thing about Ancient Minerals is that it comes from the Zechstein sea which is subterranean and hasn't been exposed to toxic elements such as mercury and lead. It can be bought in gel and spray form plus bath flakes.

That's great that your parents have seen an improvement in their health on the protocol - it must be really rewarding to see!

Thanks for the further info on the Mg - it's already a huge relief to have some indication of why I might have been going downhill. To my surprise, I managed to get some Mg malate from a local pharmacy today so have already started on it and they said they can probably get Mg oil for me if I want it. Once I'm symptomless with these things I'll be adding in the B-complex including P5P so I hope that will help even further.

 

[Freddd]

Hi everyone, I'm getting ready to place my order for the protocol, including the co-factors (thank you Freddd for putting this all together and helping people!). My question is, are there any antioxidants or supplements to help with potential detox/die-off that you would recommend as well? I'm thinking things like pycnogenol, chlorella, curcumin, astraxanthin, milk thistle (for liver). Any experiences or opinions? Thank you!

Hi Curecfs,

For starters, the Alpha Lipoic Acid, Vit C, E and a number of other things are antioxidants. On the other things you mention I can't say that any of them have a consistent enough response to be able to say anything for sure. Olive leaf extract appears to be fairly effective for many folks, myself included, though it can cause stomach upset. As far as "detox", paradoxical folate deficiency is often called "detox", NAC/glutathione "detox" causing induced folate deficiency is common, induced potassium deficiency is often called "detox". Eliminate all of those possibilities and let's examine what is left. The rapid startup of healing can cause other deficiencies as startup. Mineral balance is very important as the above discussion of magnesium and calcium indicate. I have to say trial and error worked for me on getting that worked out. I don't know how to suggest a ratio except to experiment. Responses happen quickly if you hit a sweet spot.

 

[curecfs]

Thank you for replying Freddd, I appreciate the input. I'm going to give this a shot, fingers crossed!

Hi Curecfs,

For starters, the Alpha Lipoic Acid, Vit C, E and a number of other things are antioxidants. On the other things you mention I can't say that any of them have a consistent enough response to be able to say anything for sure. Olive leaf extract appears to be fairly effective for many folks, myself included, though it can cause stomach upset. As far as "detox", paradoxical folate deficiency is often called "detox", NAC/glutathione "detox" causing induced folate deficiency is common, induced potassium deficiency is often called "detox". Eliminate all of those possibilities and let's examine what is left. The rapid startup of healing can cause other deficiencies as startup. Mineral balance is very important as the above discussion of magnesium and calcium indicate. I have to say trial and error worked for me on getting that worked out. I don't know how to suggest a ratio except to experiment. Responses happen quickly if you hit a sweet spot.

 

[Sasha]

I'd just like to recommend Magnesium oil to anyone who gets diarrhoea from Mg in tablet form as I have been doing - it seems to be widely available at least in the UK (Ebay, Amazon, Holland & Barrett) and it's an oil that you spray onto your skin and rub in. The Mg is absorbed through the skin and so bypasses the digestive system. You control your dose through how many sprays you do.

 

[Sasha]

adeno-B12 titration question

I've finally got my basic vits & mins in a row so today started on sublingual adeno-B12 with a quarter of a tablet, aiming to do the slow titration method. I'm still alive, no symptoms - should I go up a quarter of a tab a day or start today with a full tablet but spaced in quarter doses?

And then do I go up to 8 quarters/day in an extra quarter a day?

And then how do I go up to half tablets?

Sorry to be dim, I just need this kind of stuff really spelled out for me!

 

[aprilk1869]

I've finally got my basic vits & mins in a row so today started on sublingual adeno-B12 with a quarter of a tablet, aiming to do the slow titration method. I'm still alive, no symptoms - should I go up a quarter of a tab a day or start today with a full tablet but spaced in quarter doses?

And then do I go up to 8 quarters/day in an extra quarter a day?

And then how do I go up to half tablets?

Sorry to be dim, I just need this kind of stuff really spelled out for me!

Sasha, my understanding is that adb12 is much easier to tolerate than mb12 therefore you don't have to worry too much about the titration. With the mb12 you need to spread it out over the day to keep serum levels nice and even. But with adb12 it apparently isn't a concern because it works differently. Some people are fine with one adb12 a week whilst others take one every day. Some even take multiple adb12 lozenges in a single weekly dose. The only side-effect that I'm aware of is that it can give you moodswings/make you feel more agressive. So if this happens, you've taken too much.

 

[Sasha]

Sasha, my understanding is that adb12 is much easier to tolerate than mb12 therefore you don't have to worry too much about the titration. With the mb12 you need to spread it out over the day to keep serum levels nice and even. But with adb12 it apparently isn't a concern because it works differently. Some people are fine with one adb12 a week whilst others take one every day. Some even take multiple adb12 lozenges in a single weekly dose. The only side-effect that I'm aware of is that it can give you moodswings/make you feel more agressive. So if this happens, you've taken too much.

Hi april - I'm going by Freddd's post a lot earlier in this thread (here) called "Active B12 Titration Methods" - he says "I will use mb12 as an example but this applies in the same way to adb12" but what you've said makes me wonder if that just refers to the principles ("our nervous systems notice difference" etc.) rather than the quantities in "Slow titration". I wonder how I should titrate up specifically on adb12 in that case - try a whole tablet in one go per day and see if that's too much?

Also, the next thing I'll be adding in is mb12 so I guess my first set of questions still apply to that!

Anyway, thanks for the warning about the mood swings - that's worth knowing about!

 

[biophile]

How does one tell the difference between "paradoxical folate deficiency" and "detox symptoms"?

 

[richvank]

How does one tell the difference between "paradoxical folate deficiency" and "detox symptoms"?

Hi, biophile.

I think that a good way to tell what's going on is to run certain lab tests. The status of folates can be determined with the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel.

Whether detox is occurring can be determined with a non-chelator-provoked Doctor's Data urine toxic elements panel. Actually, it is best to repeat this panel periodically and compare the excretions of the metals. It's best to do 24-hour urine collections so that you have data for daily creatinine excretion. That tends to rise when detox is occurring.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[jeffrez]

So I've been taking 7.5-10mg jarrow mb12, 5,000mg ab12, 800mcg folapro, 300mg K for about a month now - aside from initial minor boost from the mb12 I can't say I've noticed any effects from it. No noticeable improvements at least. Any comments/advice Fred?

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[aprilk1869]

So I've been taking 7.5-10mg jarrow mb12, 5,000mg ab12, 800mcg folapro, 300mg K for about a month now - aside from initial minor boost from the mb12 I can't say I've noticed any effects from it. No noticeable improvements at least. Any comments/advice Fred?

Aren't you taking any of the other cofactors such as vitamin c, zinc and fish oils? These are really important as a deficiency in these things can prevent B12 from working properly.

 

[Sasha]

I've finally got my basic vits & mins in a row so today started on sublingual adeno-B12 with a quarter of a tablet, aiming to do the slow titration method. I'm still alive, no symptoms - should I go up a quarter of a tab a day or start today with a full tablet but spaced in quarter doses?

And then do I go up to 8 quarters/day in an extra quarter a day?

And then how do I go up to half tablets?

Sorry to be dim, I just need this kind of stuff really spelled out for me!

Amazingly, even a quarter tab of a-B12 allowed me to go out for a second time on the day I took it (normally can go out only once a day, if I'm lucky) - then 3/4 tab the next day also let me go out twice, with no PEM from the previous day; out for longer than normal the next day with 1 tab; and out for the longest walk I've had in about 9 months this morning even before my 1 tab. I hope this keeps up! No adverse symptoms yet. I'm assuming this isn't the Mg.

Two questions:

1. Should I keep upping my dose of a-B12? How will I know when I've gone too far?

2. I'm going to start on m-B12 next (the scary one) - my questions from the above post still apply. I daren't start until I know the answers!

Very pleased with what's happened so far.

 

[jeffrez]

Aren't you taking any of the other cofactors such as vitamin c, zinc and fish oils? These are really important as a deficiency in these things can prevent B12 from working properly.

Yes, i'm taking lots of zinc & C. Fish oil has mercury & I don't take it. Any fish or fish oil raises my liver enzymes.

 

[Freddd]

I've had a family tragedy in the last few days. My wonderful 30 year old daughter was murdered Thursday afternoon by a guy who decided to get blind stinking drunk before going out for a drive at high speed and no control. I will be laying low for the next couple of weeks but will stop in from time to time.

 

[Sasha]

Freddd, I am so terribly sorry to hear about your awful news. I can't imagine how you must be feeling. I'm sure that all our thoughts are with you and your family.

 

[jeffrez]

That is a terrible, awful tragedy, Fred. Heartfelt condolences to you and your family.

 

[maddietod]

Oh, Freddd, I'm so sorry. Much love to you and all of your family.