B-12 - The Hidden Story

Messages
1
Likes
0
I've been on the b12 protocol for a few weeks now. For about 5 days I've nearly completely lost my sense of taste. There's a constant sour and nearly metallic taste in the back of my tongue. Has anyone else experienced this? Wonder if I should stop?
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Likes
34,217
Location
UK
Have there been developments in the protocol or is it still as it was in 2009?
I think I've answered my own question - I've found a new thread called Active B12 Protocol Basics that Freddd started in May 2011 which presumably is the updated protocol. Thanks, Freddd, for providing all this info!

UK people - I've been googling to find UK suppliers of the specific brands that Freddd mentions (which he emphasises are very important) and have found an online company called The Big Vit Shop (classy!) that specialises in supplying high-quality food supplements from the US, including a lot of the ones Freddd names.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Likes
34,217
Location
UK
I'm looking into sources for the Freddd's list of supplements. I see he recommends (any brand) Vits A&D from fish oil - 10,000 of Vit A and whatever level of Vit D is provided with it (usually 400, 800 or 1200). I've got a few questions:

1. Am I right in thinking that the unit here is IU, not micrograms? According to Wikipedia the recommended upper limit to protect against toxicity is 3,000 micrograms or 10,000 IU.

2. I eat salmon some days. Should I not take a fish oil supplement on the days that I do (not just the Vit A/D one but the Omega 3 one as well)?

3. Having looked at a lot of UK websites the only fish oil sources of Vits A&D are cod liver oil, not fish body oil. Should I be worried about mercury?
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Likes
34,217
Location
UK
Another question! How many mg of calcium & magnesium should I be looking for in my calcium/magnesium supplement?
 

Red04

Senior Member
Messages
179
Likes
84
I think I've answered my own question - I've found a new thread called Active B12 Protocol Basics that Freddd started in May 2011 which presumably is the updated protocol. Thanks, Freddd, for providing all this info!

UK people - I've been googling to find UK suppliers of the specific brands that Freddd mentions (which he emphasises are very important) and have found an online company called The Big Vit Shop (classy!) that specialises in supplying high-quality food supplements from the US, including a lot of the ones Freddd names.
You may want to read this thread before you dig through "b12 - The hidden story" as it seems things have changed:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...in-inducing-deficiency-called-quot-ddtox-quot

I think between active b12 protocol, b12- the hidden story, and the link above, you should get most of it.
 

Red04

Senior Member
Messages
179
Likes
84
Another question! How many mg of calcium & magnesium should I be looking for in my calcium/magnesium supplement?
FREDDD would be best to answer this. From what I have put together, they aren't a sensitive variable in the equation. My wife takes calcium 600 and magnesium 250.
 

topaz

Senior Member
Messages
149
Likes
4
I'm looking into sources for the Freddd's list of supplements. I see he recommends (any brand) Vits A&D from fish oil - 10,000 of Vit A and whatever level of Vit D is provided with it (usually 400, 800 or 1200). I've got a few questions:

1. Am I right in thinking that the unit here is IU, not micrograms? According to Wikipedia the recommended upper limit to protect against toxicity is 3,000 micrograms or 10,000 IU.

2. I eat salmon some days. Should I not take a fish oil supplement on the days that I do (not just the Vit A/D one but the Omega 3 one as well)?

3. Having looked at a lot of UK websites the only fish oil sources of Vits A&D are cod liver oil, not fish body oil. Should I be worried about mercury?
Sasha

I'll share what I know:

Vit A: the upper limit and caution surrounding Vit A toxicity is based on trials using synthetic Vit A (palmitate). Hence its best to use natural vitamin A and Freddd's source of Vit A via fish oil (cod liver oil, CLO, is the best and most common source) is appropriate provided that the vitamin A "added" back into the fish oil/CLO is not the synthetic type, which it often is. Choose your fish oil well. Look at Carlson's, Garden of Life olde World or Quantum Nutrition.

Alternately, you could try a Vitamin A/D supplement which uses shark or halibut liver oil (Natural Factors Halibut Liver Oil contains only natural Vit A; Now Foods Shark Liver Oil; other Now Foods Vit A which are derived from fish liver - I think there are about 3).

An excellent source of Vitamin A is liver (lamb or cow). I have this once a week to ensure I have enough natural vitamin A. I dont mind the taste, some do. It is very medicinal. Try to only source organic/grass fed offal. Its not expensive as its not in high demand!!

On the days that eat liver, I skip my Vit A (refer below about Omega 3).

Omega 3: Personally, I still take Omega 3 even on fish consumption days. You cannot really take too much but skipping on fish days would not harm either.

Only Vit A should be skipped on liver consumption days.

Mercury: You can buy brands of Omega 3 that are mercury free. I'd suggest this as a precaution. Its not much more expensive.

Omega 3 typically is sourced from fish body. Fish oils containing A&D will always contain fish liver as that is where it is stored (a la cow/lamb liver). CLO provides both Omega 3 and A&D (again, ensure that you are getting natural Vit A).

Calcium/Magnesium: Most people take too much calcium and not enough magnesium. MAgnesium is also required for methylation. The type of calcium and magnesium are very important as many forms are not bio-available (ie cannot be absorbed). It shocking that most commercial vitamin producers use magnesium oxide which is not bio avail. Look for magnesium in glycinate, tuarate or citrate forms.

Also, magnesium is absorbed well transdermally. There are magnesium oils on the market which I have not tried but I do try to have an EPSOM salt bath (around 2 cups and soak for at least 15 mins) a couple of times a week and this really does help. Epsom salts are made of magnesium sulphate and have been shown via a scientific trial to improve the level of serum magnesium.

On a post somewhere here Rich stated the magnesium/B6 connection and the importance of taking these two together.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,065
Likes
1,622
Location
Salt Lake City
At different points Freddd has recommended what I believe he termed "penetrative doses" of 50mg at one time. Was this for Mb12, Ab12 or both? Has anyone tried this and if so, what were the results? Also, is there a particular way to do this, (ie. am or pm, with metafolin, etc.), or do you just stuff 10 sublinguals between your cheek and gum and see what happens?

Thanks.
Hi Rockt,

The 50mg sublingual doses, equivalent to about 7.5-12.5mg injected, is sufficient to cause a CNS response AFTER the body has reached an equilibrium at which an increase causes no additional response. The CNS response is DIFFERENT for adb12 and for mb12. Both are far more subtle than body reactions and are only slightly noticeable generally, and then only if the person has a depressed CSF/CNS level despite a high body level. Some response to adb12 or mb12 and some to each. As they are different the most information is gained by doing each separately. I can repeat the mb12 twice a day with a separate response each time, but not 3x per day as equilibrium is reached with that. I can repeat the adb12 once each month or two only or there is no response. Metafolin may be needed to have any response. If you are in a state of folate deficiency the dose of b12 will make no difference. Metafolin helps you retain more of the b12 for longer.


or do you just stuff 10 sublinguals between your cheek and gum and see what happens?

Basically. I start with 5 and add the other 5 over the first hour. The whole things takes about 3+ hours. The mb12 and adb12 can be done on successive days. I have performed that trial with Country life several times and I did once with Source Naturals immediately after switching, too soon to detect anything but a differential effect. I will repeat after a couple of months on the Source Naturals to see if the smaller doses are effective. Then a few days after the source Naturals 50mg I will do the Country Life to see if there is a differential effect. If there is, I will know that the Source Naturals isn't as effective for some reason. Right now I don't know if the Source Naturals will work or not. I know that the Country Life can work.
 

Rockt

Senior Member
Messages
292
Likes
16
Thanks Freddd, I'll let you know how it goes.

Wanted to ask a couple of other things: 1. AOR Advanced B-Complex seems to make me very tired, like how a normal person feels when they are very tired, (not the "tired, but wired feeling of CFS). I think it actually helps with sleep too, but I don't like the tiredness - trying to be LESS tired.

Also, Source Naturals AB12 seems to give me a tired feeling, but not quite like the AOR B-Complex. And here's something weird - I've had foamy urine for a year or so, (almost always); had it tested and it came back normal; I walked a bit further on Sunday, (45-50 minutes, instead of the 25-30 minutes I've been working up to - long story, but I didn't intentiaonally set out to increase the time this rapidly), and I seem to have crashed. So I tried taking extra Ab12, (Source Naturals), thinging it might "recharge" the mitochondria. I took 2 in the morning yesterday and 2 in the afternoon. It didn't help, but strangely, my urine was far less foamy. Didn't take any today and the foamy urine is back.

Love to hear your thoughts on this.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Likes
1,074
Also, Source Naturals AB12 seems to give me a tired feeling, but not quite like the AOR B-Complex. And here's something weird - I've had foamy urine for a year or so, (almost always); had it tested and it came back normal; I walked a bit further on Sunday, (45-50 minutes, instead of the 25-30 minutes I've been working up to - long story, but I didn't intentiaonally set out to increase the time this rapidly), and I seem to have crashed. So I tried taking extra Ab12, (Source Naturals), thinging it might "recharge" the mitochondria. I took 2 in the morning yesterday and 2 in the afternoon. It didn't help, but strangely, my urine was far less foamy. Didn't take any today and the foamy urine is back.
I've had the same exact issue with foamy urine. I was afraid that it was a kidney problem. After being on this b12 protocol for awhile it seems to have gone away. My guess is that the foamy urine has something to do with protein in the blood. I wonder if this could be from leaky gut issues where undigested food particles enter the blood stream. If this is the case, then I suppose that the B12 may help to repair some digestive issues.
 

Rockt

Senior Member
Messages
292
Likes
16
Interesting JPV, thanks for weighing in. I fear the kidney issue too, but as I said, my tests came back fine, (twice). I definitely have digestive issues, but with a low carb, high fat, high protein diet and betaine HCL, it's better. Hopefully the B12 will help further.

Oh, I should also mention that I had a live blood analysis done about a year ago and there were undigested proteins in my blood, (along with yeast).
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,601
Likes
3,118
Location
UK
Can anyone point me to the thread number that details Fredd's latest protocol ie. without folic acid. thanks
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Likes
34,217
Location
UK
Thanks, topaz and redo, for your replies - very helpful, and I've ordered my vits! Sorry it has taken me a few days to respond - I got a bit disoriented with the forums being down over the weekend.
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,601
Likes
3,118
Location
UK
Thanks for that Sasha. I did order some of the supplements last year but having amalgams out has floored me,I couldn't start it and now some of them are out of date:( So a good time to get going on some new ones.
 

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Likes
1,074
Oh, I should also mention that I had a live blood analysis done about a year ago and there were undigested proteins in my blood, (along with yeast).
Yeah, this seems to pretty much correlate with my theory. Thanks for the response.
 
Messages
25
Likes
1
Hi, velha.

The only short-term stomach acid replacements that I'm aware of are betaine-HCl, the Allergy Research Group HCl solution, lemon juice and apple cider vinegar. People who use lemon juice should use a drinking straw and flush their teeth with water afterward, because the citric acid chelates calcium and can damage the enamel on the teeth. Apple cider vinegar is not as strong an acid as lemon juice, but some people have reported that it helps them.

The issue with betaine-HCl in CFS is that betaine (aka trimethylglycine) stimulates the alternative BHMT pathway from homocysteine to methionine that is present in the liver and the kidneys. If this alternative pathway is stimulated too much, it may prevent the methionine synthase pathway, which is the one that is partially blocked in CFS, from coming up to normal operation. It's important to get this pathway up, because it is linked to the folate metabolism, and that in turn influences the production of DNA and RNA for new cells. When the methionine synthase reaction is operating properly, the combination of the methylation cycle and the folate metabolism produce a proper balance between synthesis of new DNA and methylation of DNA molecules, which controls gene expression. The methionine synthase reaction also regulates the entire sulfur metabolism, which is important for controlling oxidative stress.

Over the longer term, I think that what is needed to restore normal production of stomach acid is to get the zinc level up to normal and to restore the function of the Krebs cycle, which produces most of the ATP. The parietal cells in the stomach, which produce stomach acid, have a need for zinc, both for zinc fingers that are needed to express the proton pump genes, and also as a cofactor for carbonic anhydrase, which reacts carbon dioxide with water to produce carbonic acid, which in turn ionizes to supply the hydrogen ions needed for the stomach acid.

ATP is needed to power the proton pumps, which must work against a large gradient in pumping hydrogen ions (protons) from the parietal cells into the lumen (open space) of the stomach. In my hypothesis, the Krebs cycle is partially blocked by oxidizing free radicals that are allowed to build up because of glutathione depletion. To get glutathione up on a permanent basis, the partial block of methionine synthase must be lifted. That's where the B12 and folate come in.

Magnesium is also needed, for the utilization of ATP. Intracellular magnesium is low in CFS because of glutathione depletion, so treating the methylation cycle should help with this, too.

Best regards,

Rich
Hi Rich,

The issue with TMG you have noted here, does this mean we should not take TMG?
and isn't that in you protocol re the actifolate?
I'm getting confused here...and that is too easy:)
What you say above sounds like it may apply to me, and so far the once or perhaps twice I have tried TMG it hasnt helped. I only took a little and cant recall noticing any improvement? Can't say I cgot suddenly worse either, but at thwe time I wasn'too good before taking anyways.


Histamine query
'tonight I think I have worked out I may have this histamine problem I have just read about here
as I get wiped same with B12 always.
Last night I went out and ate pizza and a beer. Normally that is no problem occasionally. Only at 4am I woke up(as is typical) and thought I'd try a (1/8=100mcg) small part of the newly arrived Solgar Metafolin 800mcg tablet for sleep etc...anyway I did sleep heavily unitl 9.30Am, but awake with a splitting headache and felt wiped all day ..bit of residual headache type-allergy tension in head and snuffly, could be a histamine type reaction? and maybe brought on by the l-5-MTHF raising histamine(after already primed by the meal?)..and then I read the post about histamine and B12 ..and daomin (or the new stuff in London)...and I'm just wondering if this maybe related to my problems in not being able to take B12.

Does anyone know if a histamine style reaction also cause the increase tingling and reddish/puplish palms of hands and soles of feet? (I didn't get that this time but have previously when taking B12 as well as wiped and headachy)

Just wondering if if ordering that histamine lowering product from iherb or Daomin or the other product in London and taking before the B12 would help? and if it would help others who are having problems taking B12 as well? Anyone else think this may be why they don't tolerate B12 too?

I believe adding in the lecithin (soy lecithin non GMO granules from supermarket in Oz) seem to be helping, as I noted an improvement...almost vanished tingling and more energy and clearer brainfog..not perfect though. Anxiety styill there but lessened. I cant say for sure its the lecithin but It maybe. I also tried it a few years ago, and it seemed to help then too.,.although again I did multiple things.
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Likes
931
***Hi, tealady.

Hi Rich,

The issue with TMG you have noted here, does this mean we should not take TMG?
and isn't that in you protocol re the actifolate?

***There is a small amount of TMG in the multi that is part of the simplified protocol. It's a matter of balancing a couple of things. Taking a small amount of TMG can be helpful, because it will stimulate the alternative BHMT methylation pathway that is in the liver and kidneys. This will help to make some SAMe, and that is needed to methylate hydroxocobalamin to make methylcobalamin to act as a cofactor for methionine synthase. Some people do not have enough methylation capacity to do that well, and a little TMG can help.

***It may be necessary to counter the TMG by adding some DMG after the other supplements have been taken for a while, in order to slow the flow through the BHMT pathway and cause more of it to go through the methionine synthase pathway. This is something Dr. Amy Yasko recommends for autistic children, and it can help in some cases.

I'm getting confused here...and that is too easy:)
What you say above sounds like it may apply to me, and so far the once or perhaps twice I have tried TMG it hasnt helped. I only took a little and cant recall noticing any improvement? Can't say I cgot suddenly worse either, but at thwe time I wasn'too good before taking anyways.

***Please note that there is a distinction between TMG or betaine, on the one hand, and betaine-HCl on the other. In the latter, the betaine is used as a carrier for the HCl acid, to build up stomach acid if it is too low. However, when betaine-HCl is taken, the betaine comes in, too, and it acts as separate betaine or TMG would. To obtain the increase in acid without the betaine, the other ways of raising stomach acid that I mentioned can be used, so lomg as proper precautions are taken. That is, if hydrochloric acid is taken, it must be properly diluted so as not to damage the mouth, throat and esophagus. Allergy Research Group sells such a solution of diluted HCl. Lemon juice must be flushed from the teeth to avoid damaging the enamel.

Histamine query
'tonight I think I have worked out I may have this histamine problem I have just read about here
as I get wiped same with B12 always. Last night I went out and ate pizza and a beer. Normally that is no problem occasionally. Only at 4am I woke up(as is typical) and thought I'd try a (1/8=100mcg) small part of the newly arrived Solgar Metafolin 800mcg tablet for sleep etc...anyway I did sleep heavily unitl 9.30Am, but awake witha splitting headache and felt wiped all day ..bit of residual headache type-allergy tension in head and snuffly, could be a histamine type reaction? and maybe brought on by the l-5-mthfy rasing histamine(after already primed by the meal?)..and gthen I read the post about histamine and B12 ..and daomin (or the new stuff she took in London)...and I'm just wondering if this maybe related to my problems in not being able to take B12. Would a histamine style reaction also cause the increase tingling and reddish/puplish palms of hands and soles of feet?
Just wondering if anyone else has this..and maybe if ordering that histamine product from iherb and taking before the B12 would help?

***I'm sorry you had this experience. I'm not sure whether you had a histamine reaction or not. It's possible that there were some high histamine foods in what you ate. Also, most PWMEs/PWCs do not tolerate alcohol very well, so that might have contributed as well.

***I don't know whether you might be confusing Metafolin with melatonin. The latter is a natural hormone that does promote sleep. Metafolin may eventually help with sleep, but when some people first begin taking it, it can interfere with sleep.

I believe adding in the lecithin (soy lecithin non GMO granules from supermarket in Oz) seem to be helping, as I noted an improvement...almost vanished tingling and more energy and clearer brainfog..not perfect though. Anxiety styill there but lessened. I cant say for sure its the lecithin but It maybe. I also tried it a few years ago, and it seemed to help then too.,.although again I did multiple things.
***I'm glad this seemed to help. It is intended to support the membranes on cells, including the neurons, so it's conceivable that could have helped you with brain and nervous system related symptoms.

***Best regards,

***Rich