B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,

Maximum effect for most people is reached at 3mg adb12 per day to week within several doses of 3mg or more. Mb12 is a required cofactor that is required for about half of adb12's functioning. Too much adb12 compared to mb12 can cause unpleasant mood and personality changes. Bring mb12 up to speed too. Then after the mb12 is also at a body equilibrium level is time to try the CNS dose. About 90% of all the change from active b12s will be from mb12 for most people.

Thanks, Freddd. Oops! I was at about ten times the dose I should have been yesterday, then. I've had another 2 tabs today of adB12 so I expect I'm pretty topped up with it for now and will leave it alone for a week. I'll start with mB12 tomorrow morning.

I've been feeling surprisingly gloomy the last few days, especially considering that I was able to do a bit more than usual, so maybe that was brought on by too much adB12 without any mB12 to balance.

Thank you very much indeed for your replies - it's quite a complex process and quite hard to tackle with brainfog on top!

 

[Sasha]

My understanding is that you need to be on both adb12 and mb12 for weeks or months before doing a "50mg test." I think the idea of the test is to see whether you're a candidate for injections as not everyone needs to go to those extremes.

If I were you I'd start on the mb12 ASAP. You can cut a lozenge into 4 or 6 bits and take just one bit. If everything goes fine you can move on to 2 bits the next day and so forth until you get to 4 or so bits. Then you can start taking larger bits until you reach the full lozenges.

Thanks, april - I hadn't realised at all until I read that post that you shouldn't titrate one to its max and then the other.

I'm quite nervous about starting the mB12 but at least if I feel like death it will be a good sign!

 

[Adster]

Just a heads up in case it hasn't been mentioned, but Jarrows have changed their 1000mcg mB12 sublingual tablet formula. It now has less flavour and acid, and more of the cellulose. It's almost too gummy now, though, and takes ages to dissolve against the gum.

 

[Freddd]

Just a heads up in case it hasn't been mentioned, but Jarrows have changed their 1000mcg mB12 sublingual tablet formula. It now has less flavour and acid, and more of the cellulose. It's almost too gummy now, though, and takes ages to dissolve against the gum.

Hi Adster,

Do you have a press release or anything? I take it you have tried the newer ones? Are they current inventory now?

 

[Adster]

Nope, no press release. Just noticed that the latest batch from iHerb was different so I checked the ingredients. The flavours and citric acid have moved down the list. Compare this http://www.jarrow.com/product/58/Methyl_B_12 to a bottle you have there to see what I mean.

 

[Sasha]

mb12 startup

So...

I started out today with mb12 with a 250mg sublingual dose and no discernible reaction. I've just had my fourth dose, speeding up the intervals between them and I still am not sure that I'm getting a reaction - I've been quite tired and fuzzy brained since the second dose and have a slight headache but that could be PEM from doing too much yesterday. Anyway, it is very survivable and hasn't been at all a scary process (yet), for which I am grateful.

A couple of questions:

1. Do I just take another 250mg immediately if I don't have some crippling reaction during the time the latest tablet is dissolving?

2. At what point do I stop adding 250mg doses within the same day? Is there some kind of sensible daily maintenance dose for the body (as opposed to the CNS) that I should hold to for a few weeks when I reach it? I'm worried about overshooting like I did with the adb12.

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious - I've read lots of posts on start-up but am having trouble putting it all together.

Edit: I've also read that it's best to get your b12 in before 10 am so as not to mess up your sleep - should I be trying to do that during start-up, and just taking one little dose after another until I get a reaction that I can't live with?

 

[JPV]

Edit: I've also read that it's best to get your b12 in before 10 am so as not to mess up your sleep - should I be trying to do that during start-up, and just taking one little dose after another until I get a reaction that I can't live with?

I actually find that B12 helps to normalize my sleep cycles. I usually tend to stay up all night and on B12 I seem to keep a more normal sleep pattern. It doesn't seem to make much difference if I take it later in the day. I think if you're B12 deficient, it probably effects you different that those that don't have a deficiency.

 

[Freddd]

So...

I started out today with mb12 with a 250mg sublingual dose and no discernible reaction. I've just had my fourth dose, speeding up the intervals between them and I still am not sure that I'm getting a reaction - I've been quite tired and fuzzy brained since the second dose and have a slight headache but that could be PEM from doing too much yesterday. Anyway, it is very survivable and hasn't been at all a scary process (yet), for which I am grateful.

A couple of questions:

1. Do I just take another 250mg immediately if I don't have some crippling reaction during the time the latest tablet is dissolving?

2. At what point do I stop adding 250mg doses within the same day? Is there some kind of sensible daily maintenance dose for the body (as opposed to the CNS) that I should hold to for a few weeks when I reach it? I'm worried about overshooting like I did with the adb12.

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious - I've read lots of posts on start-up but am having trouble putting it all together.

Edit: I've also read that it's best to get your b12 in before 10 am so as not to mess up your sleep - should I be trying to do that during start-up, and just taking one little dose after another until I get a reaction that I can't live with?

Hi Madie,

I'm worried about overshooting like I did with the adb12.

And the damage is terrible? In my opinion you are way more worried about something that can be corrected in 24 hours than is warranted. You lose 99% of the mb12/adb12 you take on any given day by the next day. It doesn't stick around to cause problems.

Anyway, it is very survivable and hasn't been at all a scary process (yet),

May I suggest an approach of problem solving rather than fear? That way when you start having very obvious low potassium symptoms you take more potassium instead of being afraid of hypothetical problems presented by people who have never succeeded at this, and never will as long as they let their fear win. There is nothing horrible that is going to happen. Yes, you may have some increased discomforts. Yes, if you are sucessful then things will change. Consider that virtually every change is a good and even necessary change on the way to healing but may be uncomfortable until a new equilibrium is reached. LOW POTASSIUM is dangerous and can be fatal if continued. This is the one to plan for. It will almost for sure happen. Relief can be had in 30 minutes.

At what point do I stop adding 250mg doses within the same day?

250mcg doses is more likely. My suggestion is when you get up to 4 (or 5 or 6) x 250mcg a day, move the dose size up to 500mcg and drop back to 3 doses then move to 4 and more as comfortable. The difference is that there is a little quicker deeper penetration with the higher dose. At 1000mcg dose size the difference each additional increment makes starts decreasing until you get up to CNS penetrating doses. That effect is subtle and easy to miss.

Do I just take another 250mg immediately if I don't have some crippling reaction during the time the latest tablet is dissolving?

You can, that will keep the serum level most even and speed up the healing process some. I found that when I did that with first 1mg tablets and then 5mg tablets, all startup responses disappeared within days of getting to 20mg after starting to decrease dramatically at 10mg daily dose, 1mg at a time.

 

[Freddd]

I actually find that B12 helps to normalize my sleep cycles. I usually tend to stay up all night and on B12 I seem to keep a more normal sleep pattern. It doesn't seem to make much difference if I take it later in the day. I think if you're B12 deficient, it probably effects you different that those that don't have a deficiency.

Hi JPV,

It does normalize sleep patterns as sleep disorders are a major category of mb12 deficiency symptoms. Some people are sensitive to timing and most of those are most sensitive at the beginning, before equilibrium is reached and they have 1 surge a day.

 

[Sasha]

UK suppliers of stuff for the protocol

Just received a PM asking me where I got my stuff and I thought other UK people might find it helpful to know (I found everything in the UK but it took a heck of a lot of searching).

I ordered most of the basic vits/mins from www.bigvits.co.uk, who specialise in importing high quality US stuff. That included the Solgar Metafolin and Jarrow methylB12.

I got Now Foods Shark Liver Oil (for Vit A) and Now Foods Gamma E complex from UK Amazon (different suppliers).

However, I had to get the Source Naturals dicobenzide from Allstar Nutrition:

http://www.shop.allstarnutrition.co.uk/

Biocare B-Plex fits the bill for the B-complex that Freddd describes and amazingly, my local pharmacy stocks Biocare and was able to order the B-Plex for me.

I found the combined Ca/Mg gave me digestive problems so switched to Mg oil, which can be found in Holland & Barrett, or on Amazon or Ebay.

It was a big relief to be able to get everything in the UK! It means it arrives quickly and you don't have to worry about import issues.

 

[Sasha]

Hi Madie,

I'm worried about overshooting like I did with the adb12.

And the damage is terrible? In my opinion you are way more worried about something that can be corrected in 24 hours than is warranted. You lose 99% of the mb12/adb12 you take on any given day by the next day. It doesn't stick around to cause problems.

Anyway, it is very survivable and hasn't been at all a scary process (yet),

May I suggest an approach of problem solving rather than fear? That way when you start having very obvious low potassium symptoms you take more potassium instead of being afraid of hypothetical problems presented by people who have never succeeded at this, and never will as long as they let their fear win. There is nothing horrible that is going to happen. Yes, you may have some increased discomforts. Yes, if you are sucessful then things will change. Consider that virtually every change is a good and even necessary change on the way to healing but may be uncomfortable until a new equilibrium is reached. LOW POTASSIUM is dangerous and can be fatal if continued. This is the one to plan for. It will almost for sure happen. Relief can be had in 30 minutes.

At what point do I stop adding 250mg doses within the same day?

250mcg doses is more likely. My suggestion is when you get up to 4 (or 5 or 6) x 250mcg a day, move the dose size up to 500mcg and drop back to 3 doses then move to 4 and more as comfortable. The difference is that there is a little quicker deeper penetration with the higher dose. At 1000mcg dose size the difference each additional increment makes starts decreasing until you get up to CNS penetrating doses. That effect is subtle and easy to miss.

Do I just take another 250mg immediately if I don't have some crippling reaction during the time the latest tablet is dissolving?

You can, that will keep the serum level most even and speed up the healing process some. I found that when I did that with first 1mg tablets and then 5mg tablets, all startup responses disappeared within days of getting to 20mg after starting to decrease dramatically at 10mg daily dose, 1mg at a time.

Thanks, Freddd - yes, 250mcg, oops.

I have clearly misunderstood about the ab12 - I thought that, because some people took a weekly dose, it must hang about in the body for at least a week. My concern was really about having mucked up the titration process (and hence the mb12 one) and making it harder to see what I was doing. I reintroduced ab12 today at a lower dose and the same dose of mb12 as yesterday gave me a cracking headache that even made my eyelids and ears hurt! Still, that was merely unpleasant and I'm happy to work through that kind of thing.

Thanks again for your advice and reassurance - it's very helpful indeed when trying to navigate this stuff through a mental fog.

 

[Freddd]

Thanks, Freddd - yes, 250mcg, oops.

I have clearly misunderstood about the ab12 - I thought that, because some people took a weekly dose, it must hang about in the body for at least a week. My concern was really about having mucked up the titration process (and hence the mb12 one) and making it harder to see what I was doing. I reintroduced ab12 today at a lower dose and the same dose of mb12 as yesterday gave me a cracking headache that even made my eyelids and ears hurt! Still, that was merely unpleasant and I'm happy to work through that kind of thing.

Thanks again for your advice and reassurance - it's very helpful indeed when trying to navigate this stuff through a mental fog.

Hi Sasha,

I have clearly misunderstood about the ab12 - I thought that, because some people took a weekly dose, it must hang about in the body for at least a week.

Adb12 that is hanging around in serum gets excreted as quickly other cobalamins. However, once it parks itself in the mitochondria, it appears to hang around a long time so there isn't the turnover such as with mb12 which is used in passing rather than plugged into a receptor site as adb12 is. It takes a while for a "need" to build up that when relieved can be felt. That happens in 3 days with mb12 and maybe 3 weeks or so with adb12. However, once a week can maintain equilibrium for a lot of people. Some people may need and benefit from 10x as much as another and taken every day. Generally there is a ratio between mb12 and adb12 that some consider ideal and practical experience that says there CAN BE TOO MUCH adb12 compared to mb12. That can vary to extremes in both directions. That is something only experimentation can tell you after you have healing and normalization turned on and seeing what makes it work better.

I reintroduced ab12 today at a lower dose and the same dose of mb12 as yesterday gave me a cracking headache that even made my eyelids and ears hurt!

Did you notice whether there acutely sore neck muscles or spasms? Painful tender areas on your scalp.

 

[Sasha]

Hi Sasha,

I have clearly misunderstood about the ab12 - I thought that, because some people took a weekly dose, it must hang about in the body for at least a week.

Adb12 that is hanging around in serum gets excreted as quickly other cobalamins. However, once it parks itself in the mitochondria, it appears to hang around a long time so there isn't the turnover such as with mb12 which is used in passing rather than plugged into a receptor site as adb12 is. It takes a while for a "need" to build up that when relieved can be felt. That happens in 3 days with mb12 and maybe 3 weeks or so with adb12. However, once a week can maintain equilibrium for a lot of people. Some people may need and benefit from 10x as much as another and taken every day. Generally there is a ratio between mb12 and adb12 that some consider ideal and practical experience that says there CAN BE TOO MUCH adb12 compared to mb12. That can vary to extremes in both directions. That is something only experimentation can tell you after you have healing and normalization turned on and seeing what makes it work better.

I reintroduced ab12 today at a lower dose and the same dose of mb12 as yesterday gave me a cracking headache that even made my eyelids and ears hurt!

Did you notice whether there acutely sore neck muscles or spasms? Painful tender areas on your scalp.

Thanks, Freddd, that's useful to know about the ab12 - I'll just take a quarter of a tablet daily for now, I think, and work the mb12 up more gently than I had been doing.

My neck didn't hurt at all, fortunately (that has never been an area in which I've had symptoms). The pain was all in the front of my head and my face also hurt, with a numb/peculiar sensation in some parts (lips and just above the lips). Previously when I've really overtired myself, my lips and face would go numb so it's interesting that these areas are the ones that are showing me a reaction with the mb12.

 

[aprilk1869]

Further to Sasha's post about buying supplements in the UK, here are some good additional sources...

I've bought mb12 and potassium chloride powder from luxebc.com . Bio Care B-PLex can be bought from vit-shop.co.uk .

I've never bought from puritanspride.co.uk but they have a lot of basic supplements at good prices.

 

[Sasha]

Further to Sasha's post about buying supplements in the UK, here are some good additional sources...

I've bought mb12 and potassium chloride powder from luxebc.com . Bio Care B-PLex can be bought from vit-shop.co.uk .

I've never bought from puritanspride.co.uk but they have a lot of basic supplements at good prices.

That's useful, April - it's actually luxebc that I buy some of the stuff from via Amazon so maybe I'd be better off going directly to their site.

 

[aprilk1869]

Yes, i'm taking lots of zinc & C. Fish oil has mercury & I don't take it. Any fish or fish oil raises my liver enzymes.

How are you doing? What sort of symptoms do you have? Did you ever have start-up symptoms? Have you ever had any tests which might give an indication of problems such as thyroid or adrenals? Are you taking any of the extra co-factors such as carnitine and TMG?

 

[jeffrez]

How are you doing? What sort of symptoms do you have? Did you ever have start-up symptoms? Have you ever had any tests which might give an indication of problems such as thyroid or adrenals? Are you taking any of the extra co-factors such as carnitine and TMG?

Symptoms: bad fatigue, PEM, fibro pain, brain fog.

Startup: Panic attacks from ab12, reduced with reduced dosage. Anxiety from Folapro, leveled off. Nothing from mb12.

Adrenals: require licorice extract & ACE to function

Thyroid: hashimoto's & hypothyroid

Co-factors & other supplements (per day, except ab12):

- Vit C - 2G
- Vit D - 10,000 IU
- Vit E - 400IU
- mb12 - 10mg jarrow
- ab12 - ~2000mcg 2xweek
- B-right - just started, 1/5 cap
- pantothenic - 1,000mg
- folapro - 800mcg
- co Q10 - 200mg
- potassium - 300mg
- magnesium - none, causes depression
- calcium - 400mg x 3 - required for osteoporosis
- selenium - 400mcg
- molybdenum - 300mg.
- zinc carnosine - supplying 24mg zinc
- melatonin - 5mg
- d-ribose - 1.5-1.75 grams. increase causes severe headaches
- various chinese herbs & adaptogens (eleuthero, cordyceps, etc.)
- carnitine - contraindicated in hypothyroidism
- TMG - severe panic attacks & persistent cognitive dysfunction

 

[illsince1977]

Freddd-

I haven't been following threads much lately, but when I read about your daughter, I wanted to express my belated condolences to you and your family. What an incalculable, horrible loss! I have a 30 year old son, and I just can't imagine the pain you are all going through. I am so sorry.

It is a testament to your character that through all that you continue to help others. You honor your daughter's memory with your selflessness. Thank you.

 

[aprilk1869]

Symptoms: bad fatigue, PEM, fibro pain, brain fog.

Startup: Panic attacks from ab12, reduced with reduced dosage. Anxiety from Folapro, leveled off. Nothing from mb12.

Adrenals: require licorice extract & ACE to function

Thyroid: hashimoto's & hypothyroid

Co-factors & other supplements (per day, except ab12):

- Vit C - 2G
- Vit D - 10,000 IU
- Vit E - 400IU
- mb12 - 10mg jarrow
- ab12 - ~2000mcg 2xweek
- B-right - just started, 1/5 cap
- pantothenic - 1,000mg
- folapro - 800mcg
- co Q10 - 200mg
- potassium - 300mg
- magnesium - none, causes depression
- calcium - 400mg x 3 - required for osteoporosis
- selenium - 400mcg
- molybdenum - 300mg.
- zinc carnosine - supplying 24mg zinc
- melatonin - 5mg
- d-ribose - 1.5-1.75 grams. increase causes severe headaches
- various chinese herbs & adaptogens (eleuthero, cordyceps, etc.)
- carnitine - contraindicated in hypothyroidism
- TMG - severe panic attacks & persistent cognitive dysfunction

Hi, I hope that Fred might be able to weigh in as it seems you're already doing a lot of things that should be helping.

I don't know much about hashimoto's but Dr L Wilson feels that kelp is benficial because it contains iodine along with other trace minerals which are very important. I'm currently waiting for thyroid tests to come back for my mum and if it seems she's even slightly hypo I'm going to get her on Nature's Way kelp. I have found these links informative:-

http://www.drlwilson.com/ARTICLES/HASHIMOTO.htm
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/KELP.HTM
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/thyroid.htm

Re: fish oils. Do you eat any fish? Dr Wilson feels that the best fish to eat are sardines as they are low in mercury yet very high in important nutrients.

Re: magnesium. Have you tried different forms? According to George Eby, magnesium glutamate and magnesium aspartate are bad for depression.

 

[curecfs]

So sorry...

I can only re-iterate what illsince1977 said.

I'm so sorry for your loss and grateful for your continued help.

Freddd-

I haven't been following threads much lately, but when I read about your daughter, I wanted to express my belated condolences to you and your family. What an incalculable, horrible loss! I have a 30 year old son, and I just can't imagine the pain you are all going through. I am so sorry.

It is a testament to your character that through all that you continue to help others. You honor your daughter's memory with your selflessness. Thank you.