Alternative Ways of Administering High Dose Vitamin B12

[forbius]

What company makes the methylcobalamin in water?

Metabolics.

 

[forbius]

Update:
Metabolics methylcobalamin not arrived 10 days after dispatch. Hopefully not stolen in post. Will see how they respond.

I've experimented further with just pure, extra virgin coconut oil + methylcobalamin tablet. I instantly feel the effects, so perhaps I can safely dispense with the DMSO now (although I might find other uses for it).

I tried to mold it and fasten it to my arm with a band-aid but it melts too fast for there to really be any point. I'm going to experiment with a beeswax+coconut oil combo now and maybe find a soap mold if there's anything that cuts to a small enough size. Looking for a way to get acute but gradual delivery. Also looking for a way to stop the cotton wool in the bandage soaking up some of the oil.

Does anyone know the breakdown temperature of methylcobalamin? Might need to evaporate the water.

Also, too many times for it to be a coincidence, whenever I've delivered methylcobalamin on an isolated spot with an adhesive bandage I've gotten cramps in the arm. Doesn't happen if I smear it all over the arm. Not sure if that's because my body isn't liking me delivering it all at one acute point, or because chemicals in the adhesive are being pulled in, or what.

 

[ahmo]

@forbius how have you gone with the search for slow-release transdermal?

 

[Little Bluestem]

Is anyone doing transdermal adenosylB12? I am preparing to restart it and read that it can also erode teeth.

 

[Johnmac]

@Freddd & others, how might this - that the liver contains enough B12 for a month - relate to the oft-observed effect in the Freddd Protocol where levels of health take quite a while to build - often on increasing doses; then you can scale down the doses after a while? And thereafter, if you stop taking any supplements, it takes a while for your health to decline again?

Is that the liver taking a while to top up; then staying topped up for some time thereafter?

"Back in 1994 when I was focusing on learning as much as I could about vitamin B12, an experiment came to mind, which I decided to try on myself. I saw a bottle of DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide) on the shelf of my health food store and remembered that DMSO is not only absorbed directly through the skin, but it also would carry with it any impurities dissolved in it. This can be a serious problem if the impurities are toxic. However, I also realized that if I dissolved vitamin B12 in it, it might carry it directly to my blood stream through my skin. I tried it and the results were dramatic for me, far greater than any impact I had ever felt from oral or sublingual tablets. I put some of my vitamin B12 tablets obtained at a health food store into a two liquid ounce bottle with an eyedropper and filled it with DMSO. It took a couple of days for the tablets to fall apart. Once they did, I put an eyedropper load on one arm and rubbed it in. In approximately one hour I started to feel very good, which was a sense of general strength and well being. This lasted all day. When I tried it again the next day, I got no such feeling. I also didn't experience any bad effects either. Since I knew that approximately one months requirement of B12 is stored in your liver, I reasoned that my system was simply fully supplied with Vitamin B12 and that I wouldn't need to use it again for a month or so. When I tried it again a month or so later, I got a significant boost from it again. Since then I have continued to use it on a once every month or so basis."

Best regards,

Rich

 

[ahmo]

@Johnmac The way that quote is arranged, I'd say that Rich is quoting someone else. Do you have the link?I've used google search, haven't found it.
Is DMSO a safe thing? I wonder how using it would compare to my current use of body lotion + B12 drops. V interesting understanding re liver storage.

 

[Johnmac]

Yes ahmo, he was quoting someone else. (Probably should have made that clearer, sorry.) Rich preceded the quote by saying:

The following is copied from Dr. David Gregg's website, www.krysalis.net

Don't know the first thing about DMSO, sorry. (Only DMSA, which isn't much use.)

 

[garyfritz]

Is anyone doing transdermal adenosylB12? I am preparing to restart it and read that it can also erode teeth.

I'm using a methyl/adenosyl mixture from the Australian b12oils folks. I don't think there's any risk to your teeth from the transdermals. The risk comes from sublinguals that contain citric acid or other acids.

 

[pomegranate]

I am new. I've been doing a lot of reading, and wanted to say... You guys are a lot of help and very brave and knowledgeable. Thank you.
Bio-Alternatives sells methyl B12 in water. It's not too expensive. Good quality I think.
DMSO is a sulfur. If you have the genetic sulfur enzyme thingy, and don't tolerate sulfur, you might get a headache or whatever your symptoms are from using it. I did.
I am going to try the liquid in the back-door, but also I have ordered some of the powder and am going to try it vaginally. There hasn't been much talk about rectal and/or vaginal delivery. I would like to know if anyone else has tried.
I love my injections, but they are becoming impossible due to regulations and the whole medical/political whatever you want to call it. I call it foolishness. It only makes people more desperate.
I am also going to try nebulization. I found a compressor at a thrift store, and today I ordered the kit and filters. If it goes well I will try mag chloride.
I also wanted to comment about my stomach acid situation and how fixing that cured the fatigue part of my chronic fatigue, but I think that is in another thread somewhere maybe?
So I'll report my findings on the rectal/vaginal/nebulized MB12, asap.

 

[ahmo]

@pomegranate There's another thread on transdermal B12.

 

[forbius]

@forbius how have you gone with the search for slow-release transdermal?

I got ... somewhere. I improvised some tile molds for a dolls house to make slithers of beeswax+coconut oil that I band-aid to my arm, but many powders are a bugger to emulsify with it, methylcobalamin included, it likes to clump together. I am fairly sure it works in theory but I haven't gotten the logistics figured out. It's not something i've been prioritising of late, as I only infrequently need 'topping up' my methylcobalamin levels every week or so, and am otherwise unresponsive to it (although I am thinking about using the bandage idea for delivery of other things).

 

[forbius]

@Freddd & others, how might this - that the liver contains enough B12 for a month - relate to the oft-observed effect in the Freddd Protocol where levels of health take quite a while to build - often on increasing doses; then you can scale down the doses after a while? And thereafter, if you stop taking any supplements, it takes a while for your health to decline again?

Read this.

 

[Crash Davis]

daltons, and B12 hydroxocobalamin is 1346 daltons.

Now the 500 dalton rule for transdermal absorption states that molecules above 500 daltons cannot get absorbed through the skin. So B12 will not like get absorbed on ordinary skin.

Similarly, the rule for sublingual is that absorption only occurs with molecules less than 500 daltons.

It has been stated that the nasal mucosa can absorb molecules up to 2000 daltons, so by snorting pure B12 powder intranasally, or using a B12 nasal spray, you should be able to absorb quite a bit.

I've been experimenting with stimulating the upper repiratory epithelium using nasopharygeal (NPG) swabs, long q-tips, regular q-tips....and have had some pretty good results for what I was looking to accomplish, but thats another story.

I read this and since I'm in the lab right now, I had a few extra tools at my disposal but still nothing fancy really.
I have both methyl and hydroxo sublinguals at work....so, I thought I'd experiment with intranasal.

My Methyl cobal is tart and as I expected it has citric acid. Probably a lot by the taste of it.

My hydroxo, however, is pretty benign, with sorbitol, mannitol, and natural cherry flavor....and then of course the nuisaince binders...

So, anyway, I pulverized and dissolved a tablet in a very small amount of sterile saline (I picked saline, i'm sure water is fine) in a clean (mine was sterile) plastic container and gave the mixture pretty constant agitation.
The colorless liquid changed to a dark pink color. Probably give this process 10 minutes total.

I transferred to another container and centrifuged at 3500 rpms for a minute hoping the undissolved remnants would go to the bottom of the test tube but to no avail...the binders just don't want to cooperate that way.

So, I just thought of the old college way to get the solids out of the solution and use filter paper
I wasn't picky and was in a bit of a hurry so I just used kleenex though I'm sure real filter paper or a coffee filter would technically be better. Still it did the trick as the solution that passed through was completely pink and clear to the naked eye.

Next, I dipped my 6 inch polyester tipped swab into the solution and threaded the swab up to my left nasopharynx as I have much more room in that nostril. From doing my other experiment, I have become very familiar with what the difference in sensation feels like when the applicator is touching just the regular mucosa vs the NP. When I reached the top of the NP (about 70 mm in my case) I rotated the swab, while maintaining contact with the NP epithelium, 360 degrees 3 times clockwise and then 3 times counter clockwise.

I was looking at a computer screen at the time and almost instantly, the colors became sharper and I felt an energy rush (that I'm still feeling here 30 minutes later).

I then repeated the process in the right nostril.

I have no doubt I got instant absorption unlike I have ever felt.

I used:

this version of B12
https://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-HydroxoCobalamin-Vitamin-Flavored/dp/B01BOWOW4M/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1524715784&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=source naturals hydroxocobalamin

I had some things in the lab to make things a little easier but this can easily by done at home with basic stuff.

I'm not even sure it is required to go all the way to the NP, but the feeling definitely surged when I got there. For folks that are leary about maneuvering to their NP with a Qtip if they are unfamiliar with the anatomy or have extremely tight airways in the nares, I have been working on other ways.
Like:
We have various NPG swabs at work that are much, much skinnier than a q-tip type device like what I just used. I used the Q tips because I prefer them as they cover a larger area because the end is bigger (but I am used to doing this).
So I found the almost exact NPG swabs from work here on Amazon...each individually wrapped Qty 100 for about 15 US dollars. We use them to collect flu specimens. I'm positive they are the same ones . Even same company.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007V53GH6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The pros to the NPG swab: easy to navigate the nasal passage and get around those pesky enlarged nasal turbinates.

The cons to the NPG swap:
since the shaft and foam tip are very, very skinny...when you reach the top of the nasopharynx..it WILL get your attention though I wouldn't say painful unless you just ram into it. The NP should be approached at a snails pace until a person is familiar...and also, should be done while seated. Might be unpleasant to lose balance for a moment with something stuck up your nose.....but you will become familiar with what the place feels like and apprx how deep your NP is...this skinny swab might cause a sensation of wanting to sneeze that rarely happens with something with a larger end like a cotton, rayon, polyester tip applicator. I suppose if you can't fight it off for a moment go ahead and withdraw the swab during your couple of sneezes.

Its been about 45 minutes now since I did this procedure and I feel about normal again except maybe a little lighter.

---immediate effect
-------colors brighter, edges sharper
-------energy rush...not jittery but maybe only a couple of clicks below what I would describe as anxious.
-------felt, awake, focused
-------increased heart rate
-------sensation to go pee lol.

So, that was from a 1 mg tablet dissolved in apprx 1-3 mL of saline/water and then the binders filtered off. Less water will make a stronger concentration/less soluble, while more water will increase solubility/less concentration.

Concentrations can be easily adjusted as needed.

I would expect an NPG swab to be lesser due to the decreased coverage (smaller end)

Remarks:
After doing this procedure I feel like I've never absorbed 12 in my life although I know I have plenty or wouldn't be here....lol. But, seriously, this stuff is for real!

Disclaimer: This is my own experience and observations and not medical advice.

Edit: I just replicated the same procedure with Adenosylcobalamin from Seeking Health. Just wanted to comment that the their lozenge is exceptionally clean when it dissolves. I might be purchasing all my B's from them in the future.

 

[Hip]

I've been experimenting with stimulating the upper repiratory epithelium using nasopharygeal (NPG) swabs

If I understand, correctly, you are using a nasopharyngeal swab (which is like a long Q-Tip) to place some vitamin B12 on your nasopharynx, using the procedure shown at timecode 0:45 in this video.

Is there a theoretical reason why applying B12 to the nasopharynx will have different effects to say snorting B12 powder into the nasal cavity?



On a related subject: this thread details the application of zinc chloride to the nasopharynx in patients with an ME/CFS-like illness appearing after HPV vaccination. In such patients, zinc chloride on the nasopharynx was found to be curative in 25% of cases:

Treating Nasopharynx Inflammation With Zinc Chloride Cures 25% of ME/CFS Cases Triggered by HPV Vaccination.

 

[bertiedog]

Snorting up powder from a finely crushed B12 tablet via a drinking straw. (Best not performed outside a police department

Thanks for that you gave me a really good laugh which I could do with as in a crash at the moment. (didn't realise it came from such an old post)

Pam

 

[Crash Davis]

If I understand, correctly, you are using a nasopharyngeal swab (which is like a long Q-Tip) to place some vitamin B12 on your nasopharynx, using the procedure shown at tim

Yes. Perhaps this is a better illustration at time 0:24.

A saturated "q-tip" type applicator works much better for me due to increased surface area. Mention of NPG swab was just because it is easier to get there with that, but the thin tip doesn't quite do as much of what I want to do vs the above type applicator, but still does work if the NP can't be reached with something larger.

Is there a theoretical reason why applying B12 to the nasopharynx will have different effects to say snorting B12 powder into the nasal cavity?

I have benefited quite a bit by stimulating this area x2 daily using nothing more than a saline saturated swab rotating 3 times clockwise, three times counterclockwise. This stimulates instant mucous secretion and also removal of an invisible area of epithelium, stimulating healthy cell turnover in the airway mucosa. I no longer wake up congested at night and hopefully this will lead to discontinuation of Afrin that I have had to use daily for many years because of this congestion. All other medications have failed. Afrin was a last resort and realized not recommended for long term use. Again, nothing else was working and after 2 years, I realize plugged passages where highly detrimentally to my breathing during sleep. Tradeoff.

Extraction of the B12 into a liquid with the binders filtered off creates a highly purified solution that can be applied directly with a swab. I find this area in the nasopharynx to be highly vascularized and a thin membrane, thus should be increased absorption (and indeed it is by experience). The swab should also provide benefit if one were to dab the solution along the rest of the nasal passages.

My experience of insufflation of various powders over the years :/ makes me aware of how 'messy' of procedure that is (caking, binders, irritation) versus targeted delivery that can easily be rinsed by a saline wash at a later time if desired.

* I would think this solution from the method I used could easily be transferred to a nasal spray bottle
https://nootropicsource.com/shop/solutions/spray-bottle/ and work just as well, perhaps better, especially if the nasal passages are cleaned of mucous ahead of time with something like a saline rinse.

This method of extraction provides for the b12 to be prepared fresh each day. Theory here is that b12 as a liquid form is quickly broken down, but in a lozenge dry form is protected until wet and exposed to light and air. Also, B12s that are sold as a liquid are usually going to have something syrupy and tangy intended for swallowing (remaining purified solution I created could also be swallowed by mouth...whatever is left unused after nasal application...I have further evolved into repeating the application several times in succession with swabs before ingesting the remaining liquid orally. The solutions I have used thus far are quite gentle on the membranes. Can now add the Superior Source Methyl B12 dots to the list of what I've tried....very pure, nothing but Methyl B12, lactose and acacia gum as ingredients ).

My theory is people are not really correct when they say they can only take "x" exact amount of b12 by mouth. I do not think "x" amount is absorbed consistently for this to be true due to various factors affecting absorption on a day to day basis (almost all of this by that method is absorbed by stomach and not mouth, IMO, inducing lots of variability on absorption) unless one is actually doing B12 injections.

On a related subject: this thread details the application of zinc chloride to the nasopharynx in patients with an ME/CFS-like illness appearing after HPV vaccination. In such patients, zinc chloride on the nasopharynx was found to be curative in 25% of cases:

Yes, if you see my comment on that thread, note that I was going to try that procedure and did to some degree. All of this other stuff evolved as an offshoot from that procedure. The various forms of zinc I had available were not acceptable due to solubilities/binders and I did not pursue obtaining pure zinc chloride solution after noticing benefit from simple stimulation to the described area with nothing more than saline and gentle friction.

 

[garyfritz]

UPDATE: some of the above methods may not work, because the molecular weight of B12 methylcobalamin is 1344 daltons, and B12 hydroxocobalamin is 1346 daltons.

Now the 500 dalton rule for transdermal absorption states that molecules above 500 daltons cannot get absorbed through the skin. So B12 will not like get absorbed on ordinary skin.

Similarly, the rule for sublingual is that absorption only occurs with molecules less than 500 daltons.

Sorry to dredge up a very old post, but in case anyone still sees the original post: it's clear to me that B12 somehow circumvents this 500 dalton limitation. During the worst of my B12 hunger, I would wake in the night with terrors and near-seizure muscle thrashing. I could (and often did) lay there for hours suffering and unable to go back to sleep. Then I discovered a 1mg sublingual knocked it right out. I would pop the sublingual between my lip and gum, and literally within seconds I would feel the tension drain out of my muscles. Within 2-3 minutes I would drop off to sleep.

Then there is the Australian B12 oil that many here have used. I'm very certain the B12 in that product penetrates the skin. It was the most effective B12 delivery system I found. I even preferred it to injections, because of the obvious benefit of "no needles," but also because of the long effectiveness as it gradually dribbled its payload into my bloodstream.

I don't know how/why B12 is able to violate the rule, but clearly it does.

 

[Hip]

Then there is the Australian B12 oil that many here have used.

A while ago I had some email contact with the company that developed and sells these vitamin B12 oils, and I posed this question of the 500 dalton skin penetration limit to them. Here is what they said in reply:

The rule is for hydrophobics, but not for our patricular technology. We can get molecules of molecular weight over 150,000 through the skin. We have data published by our consultant and patented on 150K IgG, insulin, IG1, LHRH, all the B12 analogues, and many little peptides.

He has data for weight loss with insulin and IgF1, and also anti-inflammatory activity for anti-TNF monoclonal antibodies.

Buy some product and watch is disappear into the skin.

When I asked for further details about their formulation and the patent, they declined to provide details, on the grounds that they did not want people trying to copy their product. However, they did say this:

We have also had considerable debate with a couple of the big guys in transdermal drug delivery, but I can tell you yes, the material does penetrate the skin. It disappears (it is extremely red) rapidly into warm dry skin and also you get sufficient material across for delivery of B12 for PA and also for ASD and for CFS.

Many CFS individuals have basically sucked the death out of lozenges to no avail, but have had success on the oils.

So it is interesting that they think sublingual B12 tablets are not that good, compared to the B12 oils.

I would have thought that the easiest way to definitely prove B12 oils cross the skin is via a before and after B12 blood test.

 

[garyfritz]

So it is interesting that they think sublingual B12 tablets are not that good, compared to the B12 oils.

I agree with them. Before I found the oil products, I was using 25-35 mg/day of sublinguals, and still not controlling my symptoms. When I started using the oils I finally got my symptoms totally under control, using only 5-7 mg/day.

At that time I hadn't learned the importance of dissolving sublinguals as slowly as possible, so maybe I could have gotten better results with the sublinguals I was using. But I doubt it would have worked as well as the oils.

 

[lizw118]

If I understand, correctly, you are using a nasopharyngeal swab (which is like a long Q-Tip) to place some vitamin B12 on your nasopharynx, using the procedure shown at timecode 0:45 in this video.

Is there a theoretical reason why applying B12 to the nasopharynx will have different effects to say snorting B12 powder into the nasal cavity?



On a related subject: this thread details the application of zinc chloride to the nasopharynx in patients with an ME/CFS-like illness appearing after HPV vaccination. In such patients, zinc chloride on the nasopharynx was found to be curative in 25% of cases:

Treating Nasopharynx Inflammation With Zinc Chloride Cures 25% of ME/CFS Cases Triggered by HPV Vaccination.

I wonder if the swab is effective because it is hitting the base of the spheno ganglion nerve?
https://www.diamondheadache.com/treatments/nerve-blocks/sphenopalatine-ganglion-nerve-block/