August 8th, 2018: Understanding and Remembrance Day for Severe ME
Have you heard of our Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance? Please join Jody Smith in observing this day and honoring the 25% of those with ME/CFS who are most severely ill.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

The Undetectable Infection

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by Elph68, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. jason30

    jason30 Senior Member

    Messages:
    328
    Likes:
    143
    The Netherlands
    Wow, great information! I have read it with a lot of interest!

    I wonder if I have this undetectable infection as well.
    15 years ago I was in the Turkey hospital and got this bladder infection first and after that a prostate infection. This prostate infection keep returning and was there for almost 1,5 year, I took a lot of antibiotic to bring down the prostate infection. My health was going downhill after that..... allergies... thyroid problems and the list gets longer and longer.
    Years after the prostate infection I still have that same pain at the prostate area sometimes, but it's shortly and not really annoying.

    But I wonder if there is still something going on there (which maybe supresses the immune system) without giving me the big symptoms. Can I somehow find out if there is still something going on there?
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
    Jennifer J likes this.
  2. roonie

    roonie

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    36
    Elph68....how are you holding now after we last chatted with you...sliding or holding your own?
     
  3. Jamo77

    Jamo77

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    19
    Yes I am very interested too

    let us know @Elph68

    I got real crook after some surgery to open the airways in 2001 and got some real bizarre nose symptoms and a terrible brain fog like my head was full of some awful virus. The worst of the nose symptoms went away last year after I applied a nasal moisturizer used by astronauts that contains iodine.
     
  4. Jamo77

    Jamo77

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    19
    But still struggle big time with cognitive issues
     
  5. nbutt2

    nbutt2

    Messages:
    5
    Likes:
    3
    What about the possibility of it being defective HIV? A vast majority of people exposed test negative. HIV loses it ability to infect CD4s very quickly but maybe its possible it can lie latent and provoke autoimmune responses. Viruses are not zero or one. They have different abilities to infect depending on how potent they are. Any ideas ?
     
    xrayspex likes this.
  6. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    Hey @nbutt2, CFS has been around a lot longer than hiv so it seems unlikely but until it is totally discredited scientifically, then i suppose it is a possible theory.

    In the most part however, it is with some confidence that I will state that the largest group of people suffering CFS have Staphlyococcus as the culprit. I also believe the 'toxin' causing the immune system activation which results in its eventual dysfunction is PIA a polysaccharide.

    PIA causes the immune system to 'over react' to other substances resulting in allergies, asthma, toxin sensitivities, food intolerances etc. the amount of PIA a staph bacteria produces is dependent on its genetic makeup, its exposure to antibiotics and the amount of sugar it is able to consume as well as other factors.

    Personally, I believe I have been battling this a lot longer than I realised and it hit me really hard when I picked up this clindamycin resistant strain of staph ..... apparently this strain is the same genotype as MRSA or golden staph. Hence the severity of the 'crash' when it entered my system ....

    I suppose I am close to normal. I do however have reactive arthritis, although the pain has gone, kidney damage muscle cramps and neuropathy ... but I now go to the gym every day again and my strength is pretty good but my stamina isn't there yet. I do however feel better after exercise or a workout again. My urologist said my prostate is back to normal for somebody my age ..... he had never seen that happen before with someone diagnosed with prostatitis.

    There are a lot of people who have contacted me and are now chasing Staphlyococcus as the culprit and are having good results. But until somebody smarter than me proves it in their lab, my research and lab results from my China trip are still only theoretical. But the treatment results are real

    Other bacteria such as strep, enterococcus, mycoplasma/ureaplasma etc. gang up with staph and make everything worse ..... they can also produce polysaccharides which are produced from the body's sugar.

    I also believe the safest treatment is phage therapy .... target Staphlyococcus Aureus and Staphlyococcus eperdidimis and let the phages loose on our mucosa......
     
  7. nbutt2

    nbutt2

    Messages:
    5
    Likes:
    3
    Elph68 humans have lived with bacteria for thousands of years. I highly doubt that a bacteria could overwhelm a human body from all directions like this. I suppose its a retrovirus. Why i talk about defective hiv is because over the internet there are thousands of people like you with confirmed hiv exposure and who test negative yet are clinically unwell( like mark37 on this forum). It is possible it is retrovirus similar to hiv.
    What is interesting is that people could catch it non-sexually through saliva too. Many people catch it through contaminated food and dental work. Its becoming a pandemic. Its spreads easily through close contact. Its possible the retrovirus creates some immune dysfunction that enables the bacterias you describe thrive. Yet humans could not detetect it through blood tests. I respect your views though but it is still a theory unless proven.
     
  8. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    Hi @nbutt2 ,

    I am very happy for you to start a thread and spend 5 years researching and back up all your statements with scientific papers like I have in this thread. You are also welcome to hire a professor from a large university and have them do microflora lab tests like I have and then take all your findings to an infectious disease specialist and have them treat you for over a year like I have to prove the theory .....

    Maybe it is all circumstantial, maybe I was just lucky ..... maybe the large doses of THE RIGHT antibiotics did nothing and it was all just a placebo effect ....... maybe I just talked myself into getting better ....

    You are entitled to your opinion, and I won't debate on a subject that I know nothing about, but I am very happy to be educated by what you have to say, but I need to see the scientific papers to back your opinion.

    Cheers.
     
  9. nbutt2

    nbutt2

    Messages:
    5
    Likes:
    3
    Hiv has been present for quite some time. Its just it was discovered in 1980s. They way it reproduces produces a far more "defective copies". Anyone exposed to a "defective copy" tests negative but develops a whole sort of immune disorders like IBS. Further the immune dysfunction it creates awaken endogenous retrovirus in human DNA and further infects people through close contact. And yes even saliva is enough to infect with a defective hiv. Saliva has these non-infectious defective copies. I think a certain fraction of me/cfs have this. Some people have an immune system strong enough to fight it off i.e. young people and women. This is my theory and i will to prove it over the couple of years.
     
  10. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    Good luck researching your theory, there is one thing you are going to find difficult is to prove hiv has been around longer than the 1980"s. Researchers have actually mapped the spread of hiv and have identified the first person who contracted hiv in the Congo and carried the virus to New York. That being a male homosexual airline steward.

    Anyway, best of luck on your quest.
     
  11. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

    Messages:
    2,700
    Likes:
    3,929
    USA
    There is a good interview where Montoya discuss this topic and he says the idea is just plain crazy. I agree there is a non HIV soubgroup but it is not ME. The inmune markers are different low cd4 vs low cd56 (NK cells) activity. Sojern is low CD3, Lyme is low CD57 (all somehting like that and other markers)..... They are all immune deficiency but each has different markers where any educated immunologys can see them appart, they all have inmune signatures (even the ones w no tests). This poeple have been treating HIV for a while so they can distinguish.

    Does negative HIV exist? I Absolutely believe so , I just don't think it is the whole ME community.
     
  12. pattismith

    pattismith Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,528
    Likes:
    2,310
    Hello Elph68, did you have a long Clindamycin treatment?
    Clindamycin can have side effects both by modifications of the gut microbiome, and both from inhibition of Mitochondria

    The neurotoxic effect of clindamycin - induced gut bacterial imbalance and orally administered propionic acid on DNA damage assessed by the comet assay: protective potency of carnosine and carnitine

    Published: 12 April 2013

    Abstract
    Background
    Comet assay is a quick method for assessing DNA damage in individual cells. It allows the detection of single and double DNA strand breaks, which represent the direct effect of some damaging agents. This study uses standard comet quantification models to compare the neurotoxic effect of orally administered propionic acid (PA) to that produced as a metabolite of bacterial overgrowth induced by clindamycin. Additionally, the protective effect of carnosine and carnitine as natural dietary supplements is assessed.

    Methods
    Single cell gel electrophoresis (comet assays) were performed on brain cortex and medulla samples after removal from nine groups of hamsters including: a control (untreated) group; PA-intoxicated group; clindamycin treated group; clindamycin-carnosine group and; clindamycin-carnitine group.

    Results
    There were significant double strand breaks recorded as tail length, tail moment and % DNA damage in PA and clindamycin-treated groups for the cortex and medulla compared to the control group. Neuroprotective effects of carnosine and carnitine were observed. Receiver Operating Characteristics curve (ROC) analysis showed satisfactory values of sensitivity and specificity of the comet assay parameters.

    Conclusion
    Percentage DNA damage, tail length, and tail moment are adequate biomarkers of PA neurotoxicity due to oral administration or as a metabolite of induced enteric bacterial overgrowth. Establishing biomarkers of these two exposures is important for protecting children’s health by documenting the role of the imbalance in gut microbiota in the etiology of autism through the gut-brain axis. These outcomes will help efforts directed at controlling the prevalence of autism, a disorder recently related to PA neurotoxicity.

    https://gutpathogens.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1757-4749-5-9

    and:

    "The measurement of extracellular lactate concentration revealed that fluoroquinolones, macrolides, clindamycin, rifampin, tetracycline, and especially chloramphenicol and linezolid impaired mitochondrial energetics in high concentrations."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1797653/
     
  13. ScottTriGuy

    ScottTriGuy Stop the harm. Start the research and treatment.

    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes:
    4,755
    Toronto, Canada
    Wow, you totally got that wrong - you even messed up the common myth. A gay guy did not bring HIV from Congo to New York.

    Your statement speaks to how persistent the 'patient zero' myth is.

    HIV has been around the US since as early as 1971 as per genetic evidence:

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/new-hiv-genetic-evidence-dispels-patient-zero-myth/
     
  14. Jamo77

    Jamo77

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    19
    Its been over a month since I have adopted some of elph68's suggestions and it is by far the best month of health I have had since I crashed in 2001.

    I sleep much better. For the 1st week particularly I noticed I wasn't hyperventilating when I woke up. My prostate area is a lot more comfortable and i have a relatively strong flow of urine and no need to get up during the night. I take adb12 oil at night and the odd time i don't my prostate regresses. Also worth noting the xylitol eye spray (from the tree) calms down not only my eyes but my nervous system. Once the bioscreen test done will then do some of Ken Lassesen's suggestions such as rotating specific probiotics and antibacterials. Still very early days and we all know how things can change but I think for me this is a big big part of the puzzle. Even had moments when not emotionally flattened with the odd belly laugh and a couple of other times tears streaming down my face and feelings of sadness. Effortless eye contact and smiles with strangers also which was impossible before.
     
  15. roonie

    roonie

    Messages:
    78
    Likes:
    36
    jamo77...when you say you adopted some of elph68s suggestions, do you mean the antibiotic treatment or the changes in diet etc.
    Really wanting to try the abx as my doc is willing.
     
  16. andyguitar

    andyguitar Senior Member

    Messages:
    626
    Likes:
    941
    South east England
    Have any of you tried Doxycycline? Old school friend of mine was diagnosed by different Docs with ME or Fibromyalgia or CFS. Had years of different treatments which did nothing. 2 Weeks after taking 200mg of Doxycycline twice a day he was fine. Still is and that was over a year ago. Of course could be coincidence>
     
    ljimbo423 likes this.
  17. Jamo77

    Jamo77

    Messages:
    28
    Likes:
    19
    Roonie I have done nowhere near all of Elphs suggestions but the following is what have been up to including some of my own stuff:

    - Showering with betadine or chlorhexidine and rotating on a nightly basis. Within a few minutes I feel a different person. I also spray my bed each day with either eucalyptus or tea tree oil antibacterial spray. Spray xylitol solution in eyes at bedtime too which I go into more detail below. Sleep is so much better.
    - Taking 8 jigsaw magnesiums a day with 500mg potassium
    - Was taking prescript assist but had to stop for a bit because about to bioscreen test and need to abstain from probiotics. Likewise with yakult 3 times a day.
    - Taking greg's b12 oils. http://b12oils.com/
    In morning have a couple of squirts of methylb12 and take this with b2 and 1mg methylfolate. At night 1-2 squirts hydroxyb12 and 1 squirt 1adb12. Some of these may help with biofilms as well.
    - In the morning have a cup of quality coffee which has always helped.
    - Also found out about sitz baths and that has been tremendous for my prostate - my entire bod relaxed so much from these and some have even mentioned the baths in the longer term help remove debris from the prostate that harbor bacteria. One guy and I think is probably legit showed pics of the stuff that was leaving his prostate http://cleanprostate.com/theproof.htm
    I do a warm sitz bath for 5-10 minutes then alternate cold/hot for 1 minute each and finish on the cold cycle. When not lazy add magnesium flakes. As Elph mentioned not much fun when the prostate feels like a cricket ball and I was almost resigned to always having it - the darn thing hurt and even being intimate with a beautiful woman was just a chore and finished in tremendous pain. I thought this was all normal as got use to living in Platos cave combined with my shot memory.
    - As mentioned I also believe the adb12 is a tremendous help for the prostate.
    - Xylitol spray in eyes. Normally my eyes are dry and burning with significant discomfort. I have found better than xlear is using xylitol from birch tree ( i have xylismart by source naturals) and mixing with distilled water and spray that in the eyes. My eyes don't burn if I do a few times a day (although still got blurred vision and weak link between brain and vision) and my entire face softens and facial muscles relax. Ingenious that one Elph and thank-you. I am starting to look like I use to many years ago and not like my eyes are bulging out of my head and in a strange state of limbic paralysis and psychosis.

    I know Elph talks about trying to reverse the damage done - longer term I will do some type of serious b12 therapy along the lines of what Freddd has done to fix seemingly irreversible health issues.

    Once I get the bioscreen results I will look at antibiotics.
     
    Sidny and Elph68 like this.
  18. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    Hi @andyguitar, doxycycline will only work once on species that do not have resistance to it. Staph has a high resistance to this abx. These days ....l minoxycyclene is a better choice.

    Cheers.
     
  19. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    Hi @pattismith, my staph species was tested for antibiotic sensitivity, clindamycin resistant staph species are of a similar genotype to MRSA ..... I have never taken clindamycin but the lady I caught this off was a dental nurse who's late husband was a dentist and clindamycin is a popular abx. Used by dentists.

    Cheers.
     
  20. Elph68

    Elph68 Senior Member

    Messages:
    598
    Likes:
    343
    I can only say that the spread of aids was one of my units studied at university, particularly the spread through Africa along the trucking routes out of the Congo .... Inester7 has already answered the hiv argument better than I could .... and if there has.been new evidence about the starting point of hiv since I did my degree all it says is there is later research and I have had no reason to keep abreast of a subject that I have little interest in ....
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page