The Undetectable Infection

Elph68

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I haven't had this condition very long, and I am struggling to understand what the confusion is. There are so many people with so many different opinions and I can see why this is not getting anywhere. So I am just going to put it out there. I know this is caused by an undetectable infection, so I will tell you why.

This started in my wife's and my mouth/throut, and then moved to our genital tract. For 3 years we have been battling prostatitis, vaginitis and sore throats. During this time my 8 year old daughter started first a chronic cough, then vaginitis and now IBS, and she is starting to lose her spark.

After a dose of clindamycin, my wife cleared up, but my tongue went black and furry and my throat got a whole lot worse and became chronic. A few months later I was having some difficulties with some hemorrhoids, so in order to get them back in I covered my finger in saliva and pushed them in. My anus started burning, and a few days later I had severe bloating, gas, pain, reflux ..... IBS. Not long after that my glands swelled up, pins and needles, burning in hands and feet, I can't think, my body feels like lead, I can't sleep, then i crash and can't wake up and all the other symptoms that we all seem to have.

For the 3 years my wife and I struggled with the other symptoms, I have argued with my GP and others that I had picked up pathogenic strains of normal flora from my dentist. You see I found out that every single nurse in the practice had IBS.

The implications of pathogenic strains of normal flora seems to be way too horrible for any of them to contemplate. Normal flora is non-pyogenic, they do not form puss when infecting, but they produce enzymes and toxins which are known to cause inflammation and if allowed to enter the blood stream (bacterimia) they are known to cause meningitis and endocarditis.

There are 2 ways they become pathogenic, that is through plasmid (genetic material) sharing with other pathogenic strains or by turning into an L-form (mycoplasma). I know I have L-forms because I have continuous aphthous ulcers (canker sores) in my mouth and tongue, which are caused by L-form streptococcus species, and only appeared after my dental visit.

So now I give you the curve ball, everybody is arguing about why doesn't everybody show signs or symptoms, why do some family members get symptoms and others don't?

I ask you this .... If you catch Chlamydia, why do only some people show symptoms?

Nobody is arguing about the parthenogenesis of chlamydia!!!! BUT this is worse!!!


Until everybody realizes this can be an infection (inflammation) due to pathogenic normal flora (streptococcus/enterococcus) and start working together to get the medical people to look there first, we are all just going to have a slow and painful early death!!!

And if along the way we find some viruses are a complication which makes it worse, at least we are headed somewhere.

Start focusing on the pathogenic strains of the normal bacteria .... I am starting a one man crusade to bring this to light ..... e-mail, fax all the doctors, all the universities, the health ministers, and research centres .... get them to look at the pathogenesis of normal flora.

Streptococcus Sanguinis and parasanguinis should only ever be found in the tartar on your teeth, not in your throat, not on your tongue and certainly not in your vagina, urethra, prostate or your bowel..... Irrespective of what your health professionals say .....

Pathogenic normal flora = the undetectable infection = auto-immune disease!!!
 

Elph68

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Recent studies on the pathogenicity of enterococci
indicate that the genomes of strains that are able to
cause tissue damage and inflammation contain a pathogenicity
island that encodes aggregation substance (AS),
gelatinase, extracellular surface proteins (Esp), cytolysin,
hyaluronidase and other proteins[8,9]. Enterococci that express
AS were found to resist phagocytosis significantly
better than an isogenic AS-negative strain by inhibiting
the respiratory burst of macrophages[10]. Gelatinase, a
protease produced by enterococci, is capable of hydrolysing
gelatin, collagen, casein, haemoglobin and other
peptides[9]. The Esp enhance biofilm formation in E.
faecalis[11]. Cytolysin produced by the enterococci is lethal
for a broad range of prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells[12].
Hyaluronidase is mainly a degradative enzyme that is associated
with tissue damage[13].

Little attention has been devoted to the ability of enterococci
to release hydrogen peroxide into the extracellular
space[14]. Pursuant to the results obtained previously
by our group, select members of several genera, including
Streptococcus, Enterococcus and Lactobacillus, are, under
aerobic conditions, able to produce amounts of hydrogen
peroxide comparable to those released by cells of the
immune system during the oxidative burst[15]. This additional
source of hydrogen peroxide could help sustain,
or even exacerbate, gut inflammation[16]. Notably, certain
Enterococcus strains can defend themselves against the surplus
of reactive oxygen species (ROS) by producing antioxidative
enzymes to increase their chances of survival in
unfavourable conditions[17].
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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Recent studies on the pathogenicity of enterococci
indicate that the genomes of strains that are able to
cause tissue damage and inflammation contain a pathogenicity
island that encodes aggregation substance (AS),
gelatinase, extracellular surface proteins (Esp), cytolysin,
hyaluronidase and other proteins[8,9]. Enterococci that express
AS were found to resist phagocytosis significantly
better than an isogenic AS-negative strain by inhibiting
the respiratory burst of macrophages[10]. Gelatinase, a
protease produced by enterococci, is capable of hydrolysing
gelatin, collagen, casein, haemoglobin and other
peptides[9]. The Esp enhance biofilm formation in E.
faecalis[11]. Cytolysin produced by the enterococci is lethal
for a broad range of prokaryotic and eukaryotic cells[12].
Hyaluronidase is mainly a degradative enzyme that is associated
with tissue damage[13].

Little attention has been devoted to the ability of enterococci
to release hydrogen peroxide into the extracellular
space[14]. Pursuant to the results obtained previously
by our group, select members of several genera, including
Streptococcus, Enterococcus and Lactobacillus, are, under
aerobic conditions, able to produce amounts of hydrogen
peroxide comparable to those released by cells of the
immune system during the oxidative burst[15]. This additional
source of hydrogen peroxide could help sustain,
or even exacerbate, gut inflammation[16]. Notably, certain
Enterococcus strains can defend themselves against the surplus
of reactive oxygen species (ROS) by producing antioxidative
enzymes to increase their chances of survival in
unfavourable conditions[17].
Just found the paper from which this is taken:

www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/pdf/v19/i23/3562.pdf
 

heapsreal

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Maybe the infections arise due to a dysfunctional immune system??
I say this because many different types of antibiotics have been used in cfs/me without any major break throughs.
A small number have been cured but these were people with just mycoplasma or cpn.
Im not doubting what u have but hesitant that what u have is what everybody with cfs/me has.
Dr whiting in Brisbane did some research indicating some cfsers had staph infection of the stomache due to post nasal drip from sinus iinfections, but it didnt seem to pan out to the rest of the cfs community.
I suppose im hesitant as many of us have gone through the whole antibiotic treatment process without any cfs cures. I have had some improvements with sinus infections but thats about it.

cheers!!
 

Elph68

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Maybe the infections arise due to a dysfunctional immune system??
I say this because many different types of antibiotics have been used in cfs/me without any major break throughs.
A small number have been cured but these were people with just mycoplasma or cpn.
Im not doubting what u have but hesitant that what u have is what everybody with cfs/me has.
Dr whiting in Brisbane did some research indicating some cfsers had staph infection of the stomache due to post nasal drip from sinus iinfections, but it didnt seem to pan out to the rest of the cfs community.
I suppose im hesitant as many of us have gone through the whole antibiotic treatment process without any cfs cures. I have had some improvements with sinus infections but thats about it.

cheers!!
The difference between what I am doing and what others have probably done is that I am specifically targeting viridans streptococcus and enterococcus .... And I know they are already multi-drug resistant.

Enterococcus facaelis and Streptococcus sanguinis/parasinguinis to be exact .... The strep causes tartar on your teeth and should not be anywhere else ....

The undetectable infection ....,

They arise because of antibiotic use or you catch them in a pathogenic form from close personal contact .... Look up plasmid sharing and L-forms .....
 

heapsreal

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The difference between what I am doing and what others have probably done is that I am specifically targeting viridans streptococcus and enterococcus .... And I know they are already multi-drug resistant.

Enterococcus facaelis and Streptococcus sanguinis/parasinguinis to be exact .... The strep causes tartar on your teeth and should not be anywhere else ....

The undetectable infection ....,

They arise because of antibiotic use or you catch them in a pathogenic form from close personal contact .... Look up plasmid sharing and L-forms .....

l-form bacteria was the theory behind dr marshall and the marshall protocol, mulitple abx used as well as a medication to lower vitamin d receptors or along those lines. minocycline, azithomycine and flagyl from memory were the abx combo used.

I dont doubt its an issue but common infections that most people have that only affect a certain group of people i think maybe more due to the immune system faultering somewhere. The infections still need to be treated but keeping them down requires the immune system.
 

Elph68

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The
l-form bacteria was the theory behind dr marshall and the marshall protocol, mulitple abx used as well as a medication to lower vitamin d receptors or along those lines. minocycline, azithomycine and flagyl from memory were the abx combo used.

I dont doubt its an issue but common infections that most people have that only affect a certain group of people i think maybe more due to the immune system faultering somewhere. The infections still need to be treated but keeping them down requires the immune system.
they aren't normally pathogenic, these are strains that have learnt how to attack your body .... Not the normal bugs like everybody else has .... That is my whole point .... And you will probably find that a lot of us are interleukin 10 deficient ....
 
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heapsreal

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The

they aren't normally pathogenic, these are strains that have learnt how to attack your body .... Not the normal bugs like everybody else has .... That is my whole point .... And you will probably find that a lot of us are interleukin 10 deficient ....
How did you come up with this info on pathogenic strains, testing etc
Did your doc test you for this, what is the availability of testing? or is the test from biogenics.

how do they impact nk function?
 

Elph68

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l-form bacteria was the theory behind dr marshall and the marshall protocol, mulitple abx used as well as a medication to lower vitamin d receptors or along those lines. minocycline, azithomycine and flagyl from memory were the abx combo used.

I dont doubt its an issue but common infections that most people have that only affect a certain group of people i think maybe more due to the immune system faultering somewhere. The infections still need to be treated but keeping them down requires the immune system.
The immune system sure does faulter .... It is totally over run by sheer numbers. Your immune system can't fight billions of pathogens living in your stool that is building bio films in the colon and launching a continuous, never ending attack on the cells of the mucous membranes.... The immune system is over run and overloaded .... Unable to win ..... Jeez, how sick can people get from an infected finger ..... How large is the infection when it is your entire mucous membranes .... Doesn't matter how tuff you think you are ..... You are going to get sick .....

Get me 5 people, I will cover my finger in my saliva and then stick it up their rectum .... We would then see how defective immune systems really are .... I bet every one of them will develop CFS ... I know that because that is how I gave it to myself ....
 

Elph68

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is this infection also related to the hydrogen peroxide breath testing KDM was doing?
Probably, these bugs are prolific hydrogen peroxide producers to the point where they change the micro biome of the mouth and gut killing off the good bacteria ....
 

Elph68

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How did you come up with this info on pathogenic strains, testing etc
Did your doc test you for this, what is the availability of testing? or is the test from biogenics.

how do they impact nk function?
Lol ... I wish it was that easy .... Only research labs at universities or pharmaceutical companies can test pathogenisis ....
 

heapsreal

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So are gi symptoms the main issues with these infections.

Quick googles shows that they are resistant to vancomysn. Does xifaxan/rifaximin have affect against enterococcus?
 

globalpilot

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Just this morning, I found out I have an overgrowth of streptococcus viridans, rathio and prevotella in my duodenum. Imagine this bacteria accessing my food intake before it even has a chance to be fully digested and absorbed.
My GI also found d-lactate acidosis.
I believe this is the cause of the entirety of my horrendous symptoms.
I believe enterovirus , which I have, is playing a role as well.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
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Just this morning, I found out I have an overgrowth of streptococcus viridans, rathio and prevotella in my duodenum. Imagine this bacteria accessing my food intake before it even has a chance to be fully digested and absorbed.
My GI also found d-lactate acidosis.
I believe this is the cause of the entirety of my horrendous symptoms.
I believe enterovirus , which I have, is playing a role as well.
Have you read this thread on d-lactic acidosis?
 

Izola

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I haven't had this condition very long, and I am struggling to understand what the confusion is. There are so many people with so many different opinions and I can see why this is not getting anywhere. So I am just going to put it out there. I know this is caused by an undetectable infection, so I will tell you why.

This started in my wife's and my mouth/throut, and then moved to our genital tract. For 3 years we have been battling prostatitis, vaginitis and sore throats. During this time my 8 year old daughter started first a chronic cough, then vaginitis and now IBS, and she is starting to lose her spark.

After a dose of clindamycin, my wife cleared up, but my tongue went black and furry and my throat got a whole lot worse and became chronic. A few months later I was having some difficulties with some hemorrhoids, so in order to get them back in I covered my finger in saliva and pushed them in. My anus started burning, and a few days later I had severe bloating, gas, pain, reflux ..... IBS. Not long after that my glands swelled up, pins and needles, burning in hands and feet, I can't think, my body feels like lead, I can't sleep, then i crash and can't wake up and all the other symptoms that we all seem to have.

For the 3 years my wife and I struggled with the other symptoms, I have argued with my GP and others that I had picked up pathogenic strains of normal flora from my dentist. You see I found out that every single nurse in the practice had IBS.

The implications of pathogenic strains of normal flora seems to be way too horrible for any of them to contemplate. Normal flora is non-pyogenic, they do not form puss when infecting, but they produce enzymes and toxins which are known to cause inflammation and if allowed to enter the blood stream (bacterimia) they are known to cause meningitis and endocarditis.

There are 2 ways they become pathogenic, that is through plasmid (genetic material) sharing with other pathogenic strains or by turning into an L-form (mycoplasma). I know I have L-forms because I have continuous aphthous ulcers (canker sores) in my mouth and tongue, which are caused by L-form streptococcus species, and only appeared after my dental visit.

So now I give you the curve ball, everybody is arguing about why doesn't everybody show signs or symptoms, why do some family members get symptoms and others don't?

I ask you this .... If you catch Chlamydia, why do only some people show symptoms?

Nobody is arguing about the parthenogenesis of chlamydia!!!! BUT this is worse!!!


Until everybody realizes this can be an infection (inflammation) due to pathogenic normal flora (streptococcus/enterococcus) and start working together to get the medical people to look there first, we are all just going to have a slow and painful early death!!!

And if along the way we find some viruses are a complication which makes it worse, at least we are headed somewhere.

Start focusing on the pathogenic strains of the normal bacteria .... I am starting a one man crusade to bring this to light ..... e-mail, fax all the doctors, all the universities, the health ministers, and research centres .... get them to look at the pathogenesis of normal flora.

Streptococcus Sanguinis and parasanguinis should only ever be found in the tartar on your teeth, not in your throat, not on your tongue and certainly not in your vagina, urethra, prostate or your bowel..... Irrespective of what your health professionals say .....

Pathogenic normal flora = the undetectable infection = auto-immune disease!!!
 

Izola

Senior Member
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Thank you. You have given me information I either never knew or have lost in my boggy brain. I agree, there is a good enough chance that we have an undetectable infection. Long ago. I just got mad. The doctors had parsed up our bodies like a side of beef. I had books on the brain, the CNS, articles on the heart, viruses, bacteria and all things unremembered. So, as I stomped into my Doctor's office I said, 'If they can't decide, I will. Its an enterovirus, just like the old school clinicians said." Then I went home, turned off my computer and waited to die. Well, that didn't work, either. So, I turned the computer back on and lo, there was an amazing document, the CCC. They had put the body parts back together. And with all the pieces together, my bet in the pool still is enteroviruses. They hide.
This disease has taken its toll on me and I mourn for all you younger folks. There is now what there wasn't much of before--Hope-- and a little bit of what just didn't exist in society before--Awareness.
28 years have taken most everything from me, but not my sense of irony or humor.
Until this century it was believed, generally, that mycoplasmas, with the exception of pneumonia, and, I think, one other, were not disease or infection causing microbes. Doctors scoffed at me for even suggesting it. So, whenever I wasn't working or half dead, I scrounged up every research article I could find, including some of their genetic sequencing. I bombarded my Doctor with the stuff. Whenever I showed up feverish with golf ball sized glands she'd ask me what antibiotic I thought would work. Whenever I asked her if she read any of the stuff, she'd say "no." After a couple of years I quit bringing the articles. A few years back, long after the barrage of mycoplasma research, my Doctor said "Hey, come here, I need to tell you about these infectious microbes they've discovered. They're really small and they don't have a cell wall . . ."
 

Elph68

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Just this morning, I found out I have an overgrowth of streptococcus viridans, rathio and prevotella in my duodenum. Imagine this bacteria accessing my food intake before it even has a chance to be fully digested and absorbed.
My GI also found d-lactate acidosis.
I believe this is the cause of the entirety of my horrendous symptoms.
I believe enterovirus , which I have, is playing a role as well.
Hi Globalpilot,

According to all the science I have collected, you are absolutely right about the strep and prevotella. You would likely have a lot of pressure on your stomach, and reflux .... which is too much acid production in your gut ....

• Streptococcus spp. counts in the gut correlate with symptom expression :

Post Exertional fatigue
Photophobia
Mind going blank
Cervical gland lymphodynia
Palpitations
Dizziness/Faintness

Enterococcus, Streptococcus, Prevotella are strong H2S producers
Another potential toxin produced by bacteria is hydrogen
sulfide (H2S)
Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) has important physiological functions...
H2S is produced by the cells and is an important gaseous signal molecule,
involved in regulation of blood pressure, neurotransmission, muscle relaxation
and regulation of inflammation

• ...but exogeneous exposure can be extremely toxic
In excess, H2S acts as a mitochondrial poison. It can directly inhibit enzymes
involved in the cellular production of energy. H2S also interferes with oxygen
transport by blocking hemoglobin in the red blood cells. H2S is a potent
neurotoxin

If viruses/retroviruses are involved, they would have to cause inflammation and a leaky gut .... CFS is basically a condition where we are poisoned by our own poo .... and the toxins (like D-lactic acid) that pass into the bloodstream. What causes the leaky gut .... pathogenic normal flora that should not be in our gut which is also the cause of the auto-immune response!!!
 
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