XMRV revisited (Split from Hornig/Lipkin lawsuit thread)

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Hustler

I m a hustler
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It's been a very long time since I saw anyone claiming XMRV was linked to CFS. Best wishes to everyone, and I know some patients were really hopeful that the XMRV discorvery would lead to a breakthrough for patients, but it didn't work out and it seems pretty clear that contamination was a cause of the early positive papers.
XmrvMikovits MLVs were NEVER disproved
 
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X
MLV FAMILY MIKOVITS WAS THERE
R
V

Just give me some time to find alllll those many links and presentations and discussions and warnings she kept giving about it not being

XMRVSILVERMAN

but rather


X
MLV FAMILY MIKOVITS
R
V


By the way, Kina, the inspiration for my nickname comes from Lipkin himself. He said as a top level researcher you only get so much research fund money to hustle with. To figure out where to hustle...

Hey i tell u what let s put them face to face and see how they compare



X
MLV FAMILY MIKOVITS vs xmrvslvmn
R
V

Anyone need binoculars to see the difference? Does LipkiN ?? Do the CDC?!!!!!



But hey we got the Master Hustler on the case

A Man From Whom Viruses Can’t Hide
Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, Virus-Hunting Master

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/23/science/23prof.html


Oh viruses cant hide from him

But he can sure hide viruses




Only he never thought the patients would raise him and Coffin and see them.
They wanted to play poker?

Well now

WE RE ALL IN
The winner takes it ALL
We took the arv s and we got better. Pressure will never make us fold.
We have cards up our sleeves.
We learned from the very very BesT

The smartest guy in any bar, is the barman.
The simple guy. That s us. The ones who hustled Lipkin. He NEVER thought we d take those arv s and FLUSH HIM DOWN A COLUMBIA toilet

"""Wanna go for a thousand , Mr Lipkin ?"""
Just because you take ARV's and your symptoms go into remission doesn't mean you are infected with a retrovirus.

Many ARV's have anti-viral properties. There are a subset of patients who obviously respond well to anti-viral action.

There are also a number of patients who have taken ARV's and appeared to get better but in the long run have gotten much much worse. That's a worry.

Your thinking seems to be "I took ARV's, my symptoms disappeared, therefore I am infected with an retrovirus, therefore Judy Mikovits must be right on her word alone and Lipkin must be some lying criminal"(even though much of the research supports his words). So either about 20 heavy hitting ME researchers are complicit with Lipkin, falsifying research and lying, making Mikovits right. Or these many researchers did double-blind studies and all agree that there is no retrovirus involved and Judy Mikovits for whatever reason will never admit she was promoting results based on contamination.

I have yet to see Judy Mikovits do any research since 2010 to support all her wild claims re: retroviruses. She is earning her keep these days by being paid to do wild conspiracy presentations, she isn't doing research nor has done any research to back up her claims. There is no such thing as Mikovits MLV. Where has she shown this to be true. You are basing all your comments on her presentations that have no basis in research.

She has also abandoned ME/CFS patients and moved on to autistic patients. Why? Whatever happened to her promises of finding an answer.

If you can't produce any actual research to back up your claims, please stop wasting our time with these pointless rants.
 

Hustler

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Just because you take ARV's and your symptoms go into remission doesn't mean you are infected with a retrovirus.

Many ARV's have anti-viral properties. There are a subset of patients who obviously respond well to anti-viral action.

There are also a number of patients who have taken ARV's and appeared to get better but in the long run have gotten much much worse. That's a worry.

Most of your response does seemed to be an unhinged rant.

Your thinking seems to be "I took ARV's, my symptoms disappeared, therefore I am infected with an retrovirus, therefore Judy Mikovits must be right on her word alone and Lipkin must be some lying criminal"(even though much of the research supports his words). So either about 20 heavy hitting ME researchers are complicit with Lipkin, falsifying research and lying, making Mikovits right. Or these many researchers did double-blind studies and all agree that there is no retrovirus involved and Judy Mikovits for whatever reason will never admit she was promoting results based on contamination.

I have yet to see Judy Mikovits do any research since 2010 to support all her wild claims re: retroviruses. She is earning her keep these days by being paid to do wild conspiracy presentations, she isn't doing research nor has done any research to back up her claims. There is no such thing as Mikovits MLV. Where has she shown this to be true. You are basing all your comments on her presentations that have no basis in research.

She has also abandoned ME/CFS patients and moved on to autistic patients. Why? Whatever happened to her promises of finding an answer.

If you can't produce any actual research to back up your claims, please stop wasting our time with these pointless rants.
Arv s are costly. You have to be lucky to get them. Lots of treatment strategies for arv s.
Arv boosters often needed to keep the effect going. Bit like mega-haart.
No doubt it is a family of Mikovits retroviruses because the complementary methods and appendixed data demomstrated it as such in 2009. It s open to access to all
 

Hip

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I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding Hustler's success with the raltegravir and tenofovir combination. He is not the first person to have seen ME/CFS benefits from this particular combination, so I think we need to give credence to this.

But the proviso is that success with the raltegravir and tenofovir combination does not necessarily prove that there is any retrovirus involved in ME/CFS (although that does remain a logical possibility).

I mentioned earlier that the two antiretroviral drugs Hustler took also have antiviral effects against the herpes family viruses known to be linked to ME/CFS, as well as against HERVs, as well as immunomodulatory effects, and so his success on these antiretrovirals does not necessarily prove that a retrovirus is involved in ME/CFS. It may simply be due to the anti-herpes virus effects and/or immunomodulatory effects.


Indeed, Dr Chia has pointed out that some of his ME/CFS are on antiretroviral drugs for HIV treatment, and these patients' ME/CFS symptoms have not improved at all as a result of the antiretrovirals. Which suggests that the benefits that Hustler achieved on the antiretrovirals raltegravir and tenofovir are likely more related to the antiviral effects of raltegravir against herpes family viruses, and the potent cytokine modulating properties of tenofovir, and the anti-inflammatory effects of tenofovir.

Maybe if Hustler switched to a different set of antiretroviral drugs that do not have any anti-herpes virus effects, he would lose all the health benefits he has gained on raltegravir and tenofovir.

Or maybe there is a retrovirus involved in ME/CFS, not XMRV, but some other as yet undiscovered retrovirus, like the retrovirus which Dr Lipkin found preliminary evidence for. I think that is unlikely, but not impossible.



These two drugs, raltegravir and tenofovir, have been used by other ME/CFS patients to good effect:

Dr Jamie Deckoff-Jones and her daughter Ali both had improvements in their ME/CFS after taking:

tenofovir (Viread) 300 mg once daily
raltegravir (Isentress) 400 mg twice daily

And the interesting thing is that when Dr Jamie came off raltegravir, she stopped improving; but her daughter Ali who remained on raltegravir kept on improving further. Ref: here.


Then Dr Michael Snyderman also had success in treating his ME/CFS with AZT, raltegravir and tenofovir. See his blog post here. Snyderman says he can rule out the possibility that the benefits came from the anti-herpes virus effect of raltegravir:
5. Could the effect of the ARVs be really anti-herpesvirus activity?: No

DNA assays on my plasma for EBV and CMV DNA were negative. My lymphocytes were tested for active EBV infection at Mayo Clinic and were negative. A screening for active herpesvirus infection with CMV, EBV and HHV6 was negative at the WPI.
However, I don't think Snyderman can rule out the fact that the cytokine modulating properties of tenofovir might have immunomodulatory effects against other viruses linked to ME/CFS, such as enterovirus.


And on this forum, @Ellkaye observed mild improvements in ME/CFS symptoms after taking the same combination of raltegravir and tenofovir. @Ellkaye points out in this post that tenofovir allowed him to tolerate raltegravir (he could not tolerate raltegravir on its own, but found that tenofovir lessened the side effects of raltegravir).
 
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Hustler

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My hhv6 calmed down on the combo
In hiv aids hhv6 wreaks havoc
Mikovits was smeared
All the negative papers are fraud
Many of the negative papers are fraud
They looked at the wrong zones of virus
Really astonishing
 

Hustler

I m a hustler
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Yeah, figured I'd get that kind of answer from you. You carry on believing the world is flat, I'm sure you must be very happy there. just don't go to near the edge.
Oh i live on the edge
That s the life of a hustler
Playing your games but playing them better than u play them
U worried i know who put in a grant to study serology in retroviruses in the fall of 2013?
Or hey maybe i dont know. Or maybe i do?
U see, how can u know?

Is that what s really got u all going? That i may know or not know

Amongst Hustlers now
Quick draw?
 
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I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding Hustler's success with the raltegravir and tenofovir combination. He is not the first person to have seen ME/CFS benefits from this particular combination, so I think we need to give credence to this.
I am not saying isn't having success with this combo.

He said he is cured, yet admits if he stopped the meds, he would have symptoms. So, no not a cure. I would say it is a remission.

But the proviso is that success with the raltegravir and tenofovir combination does not prove that there is any retrovirus involved in ME/CFS (although that does remain a logical possibility).

I mentioned earlier that the two antiretroviral drugs he took also have antiviral effects against the herpes family viruses known to be linked to ME/CFS, as well as against HERVs, and so his success on these antiretrovirals does not necessarily prove that a retrovirus is involved in ME/CFS. It may simply be due to the anti-herpes virus effects.
I agree with this.


Indeed, Dr Chia has pointed out that some of his ME/CFS are on antiretroviral drugs for HIV treatment, and these patients' ME/CFS symptoms have not improved at all as a result of the antiretrovirals. Which suggests that the benefits that Hustler achieved on the antiretrovirals raltegravir and tenofovir are likely more related to the antiviral effects of raltegravir against herpes family viruses, and the potent cytokine modulating properties of tenofovir, and the anti-inflammatory effects of tenofovir.

Maybe if Hustler switched to a different set of antiretroviral drugs that do not have any anti-herpes virus effects, he would lose all the health benefits he has gained on raltegravir and tenofovir.

Or maybe there is a retrovirus involved in ME/CFS, not XMRV, but some other as yet undiscovered retrovirus, like the retrovirus which Dr Lipkin found preliminary evidence for. I think that is unlikely, but not impossible.
Maybe if Hustler stopped posting that there is a retrovirus that Saint Judy discovered. If there was, many researchers would be all over it.

Discovering a new retrovirus would be a coup for many researchers. So far hasn't happened.

These unhinged rants do nothing for us, just make us look nuts. I think it is time to unwatch and ignore this thread
My hhv6 calmed down on the combo
In hiv aids hhv6 wreaks havoc
Mikovits was smeared
All the negative papers are fraud
Many of the negative papers are fraud
They looked at the wrong zones of virus
Really astonishing
Which is it? You just said "all" and then "many" of the negative papers are fraud. You just accused a bunch of really good researchers of fraud which is libellous. Post some proof.
 

Hustler

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Simon Wessely is a coauthor of one of the negative XMRV papers

Does that make this thread worthy of watching, Kina?
 

Hustler

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Who would you prefer fighting for your cause ?
Him or Her ?

Wessely sure knows how to find rv !!!!!!!!

Mikovits said xmrvsilverman wasnt there.
She apologised on behalf of Silverman.
Not for herself..
She s a class act.

And yes the negative paper of Simon Wessely is one example of the fraud against Mikovits.

You want more examples ?
 

Hip

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Maybe if Hustler stopped posting that there is a retrovirus that Saint Judy discovered. If there was, many researchers would be all over it.
I agree, Hustler is not very good with a fact-based discussion, and seems to view his whole story as some epic crusade or struggle against some imaginary enemies and imaginary adversaries he has concocted in his own mind. Like a Hollywood movie.

So we can't really bring Hustler into any nuanced scientific discussion, because he does not appear to have the mindset or interest for this. And he only writes sentences of 3 or 4 words long, which is not really conducive to scientific discussion to begin with.
 
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Hip

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This is from a private Conversation I had with @heapsreal on Health Rising about the tenofovir he used as an ME/CFS treatment:
end of last year took viread [tenofovir] for 3 months then after stopping had 2 months where i felt great ...
I did relapse ... So i have gone back on viread and its been over a month . theres noticeable improvement so far.
Ive exchanged a few emails with deckoff jones . it really seems a trial and error thing. she said it helped her to a point but then no more improvement with arvs so she stopped. she did say to me that about 50% of cfs people who used tenofovir showed improvement . those that improve a significant percentage improved markedly.
Tenofovir dose i use is 300mg a day and i take it monday to friday with weekends off.

The cost of tenofovir seems to be around $3 per 300 mg tablet, so it's not cheap, but not super-expensive. If you took 300 mg daily it would cost $21 per week.

Raltegravir is more expensive, and a 400 mg twice daily dose would work out at around $80 per week.


Tenofovir can cause serious life-threatening side effects, though, including lactic acidosis and severe liver problems. See here.

Tenofovir can also cause mitochondrial toxicity, which this study says may be due to depletion of the antioxidant system particularly, the glutathione dependent system and MnSOD (mitochondrial superoxide dismutase). So possibly supplementation with glutathione and tempol (a potent MnSOD memetic) might help counter the toxicity.
 

dannybex

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Oh i live on the edge
That s the life of a hustler
Playing your games but playing them better than u play them
Yeah, right. You've yet to answer any of anyone's questions with any seriousness -- not to mention provide any links to research that backs up your games, I mean, claims.

U worried i know who put in a grant to study serology in retroviruses in the fall of 2013?
Or hey maybe i dont know. Or maybe i do?
U see, how can u know?
Or maybe no one cares, since as others have suggested, you're clearly not dealing with reality.
 
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halcyon

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All the negative papers are fraud
Mikovits co-published a negative paper as well, does that make her a fraud? Her lab couldn't reproduce the findings in a blind study, and indeed had false positive hits on blinded negative control samples. As the study that @AndyPR posted shows, the Lombardi PCR primers are non-specific and will bind to and amplify sequences present in human DNA. In the blind study, they tested for and couldn't find any mouse DNA contamination, so the logical explanation is that these false positives were a result of poorly designed primers and casts doubt on the reliability of any positive results found via PCR.
 
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