what’s the rundown on high dose thiamine?

[Kadar]

"So to support B1, I need calcium, cobalt (B12), manganese, and magnesium. I also need vitamin A and zinc. Thiamine deficiency cannot be fully resolved without also addressing folate deficiency (they share a transporter). Also required is ALA, which should be used with caution if mercury is present."

Message by @alethea
I found it really working.

 

[Learner1]

And don't forget potassium if you use big doses of B1 (for heart palpitations, muscle cramps, anxiety)

I've taken big doses of benfotiamine for years and am never short of potassium. Testing electrolytes if one is in doubt might be wise, as too much or too little can be dangerous.

 

[Mary]

im starting high dose thiamine this week and i want to make sure i do it right. i haven’t really seen a good playbook on cofactors needed, dosing, safety, and what not?

am i supposed to supplement magnesium? anything else? other b vitamins?

is it generally safe, even at doses upwards of 1,800mg? my pharmacist says he can only find it’s safe at 500 mg.

any medication interactions to be aware of? i’m on ldn, abilify, mestinon, metoprolol, sometimes use celebrex

anything else i need to know? thanks!!

The main thing I would say is go slow. 5 or 6 years ago I took 100 mg. of thiamine. It gave me a very nice energy boost in one day - it was amazing. And the next day I was hit with severe fatigue. I had to stop the thiamine. I retried it again a year or 2 later, and had the same reaction - really nice energy followed by severe fatigue. This time I did a little more research and found that the thiamine had depleted my phosphorous (not potassium) - part of refeeding syndrome. I've written about it several times. You can see this post which explains more or do a search for "thiamine" at the top of the page.

I reacted so strongly to 100 mg. of thiamine, with such severe fatigue after such nice energy, I really hate to think if I had started with a higher dose! We're all different of course. I'm now up to 400 - 500 mg. a day and doing okay, and I still need to take a phosphorous supplement a couple of times a week. So I do.

 

[dylemmaz]

The main thing I would say is go slow. 5 or 6 years ago I took 100 mg. of thiamine. It gave me a very nice energy boost in one day - it was amazing. And the next day I was hit with severe fatigue. I had to stop the thiamine. I retried it again a year or 2 later, and had the same reaction - really nice energy followed by severe fatigue. This time I did a little more research and found that the thiamine had depleted my phosphorous (not potassium) - part of refeeding syndrome. I've written about it several times. You can see this post which explains more or do a search for "thiamine" at the top of the page.

thank you so much for the reply. i started 3 days ago at 250mg. i had a very noticeable decrease in symptoms yesterday for the first time in a while. i cant say whether it was just a random fluctuation in the course of my illness, or i am a responder to higher dose thiamine supplementation. unluckily though, today has been an absolutely terrible day for me fatigue wise. i’ll have to take a look through the link you shared and see if it’s relevant to me, thank you very much!

 

[Mary]

@dylemmaz - good luck! Drinking several glasses of kefir caused the fatigue to abate for me, which told me the problem was low phosphorous, but I explain it in that thread --

 

[Tor2812]

This may be of interest to the people in this thread. This site has a wealth of information around Thiamine, and I've seen these two writers cited quite a bit by others. This thread in particular that I came across today had some really interesting points that are aligning with my experience.

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/thiamine-repletion-calcium-management-heart/

I had to stop taking benfotiamine because my reactions were too uncomfortable. Reading and taking stock of how I was feeling lead me to realize my issues seemed to be somewhat based around calcium deficiency (for me my tell tale sign of low calcium starting is numbness in the middle of my face). I was trying high dose vitamin D to try and get enough, and it still didn't seem to be helping in anything more than a very temporary way.

This eventually lead me to questioning if my vitamin K intake was sufficient. I was taking a K2 MK7 supplement for some time, but on further reading it seemed as though a K complex is actually the way to go. I read through a lot of sites, but I found this blog post to be the most succinct and helpful.

https://omegavia.com/how-to-choose-the-right-vitamin-k2-supplement/

Back to B1, this article seems pretty interesting, and the section `Problems with Thiamine Repletion` was really making me think about some things. And the comments section is worth reading as well, the part that really stood out to me was the following:

Interesting that you should mention K2. We had a case of a child who had a number of issues related to thiamine deficiency but that could not tolerate thiamine until K2 was on board. Her mom, through research and a fair degree of trial and error figured this out. I had always thought that was interesting and had meant to find the connection. Per your comment, I took a quick look to see how thiamine and K2 interact and apparently there is a somewhat reciprocal relationship, in bacteria at least, but one would expect in mitochondria too.

Some other posts that may be of interest:
https://www.hormonesmatter.com/hypoxic-heart-thiamine-calcium-regulation/
https://www.hormonesmatter.com/depression-anxiety-chronically-hypoxic-brain/
https://www.hormonesmatter.com/what-is-thiamine-to-energy-metabolism/

 

[Kadar]

@Tor2812 Interesting that I started to tolerate b1 only after using some K2. But I thought its connected to copper. K2 made me tolerant to selenium and different sulfur-containing supps (b1 one of them). Sulfur is copper antagonist. But I had unresolved palpitations from b1, potassium and copper didn't help.

 

[Tor2812]

I don't want to get ahead of myself on this, but some very interesting things are happening with Thiamine now that I'm taking it with a high quality broad complex for Vitamin E as well as K (and of course everything else).

I take Riboflavin and R5P each day, and they help, but I had hit the ceiling on utilization of that quite a long time ago, especially noticeable by how yellow my urine output was. Now over the past couple of days I'm feeling a big difference, but have really noticed that I seem to be using all of that B2 I'm taking now. I've also noticed a slight up tick in increased need for Niacin (I take 25mg twice a day, and find that superior to using any other forms such a Niacinimide, or Inositol Hexanicotinate).

Of course, *everything* is connected, but I just think this is interesting because in all of my reading I haven't come across anything around B1 potentiating or rate limiting utilization of B2 (I assume that's a limitation of my reading or comprehension, and that it's out there though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ).

 

[Timaca]

I am trying some thiamin supplementation. I started several weeks ago with 25 mg and have increased 25 mg each week until this week where I am taking 125 mg. I see no difference so far in my symptoms, except I might be sleeping better. (I am sleeping better, but whether or not it is due to the thiamin I'm not sure. It could just be a random streak of sleeping better.) I'll be interested in other people's experiences. Thanks for sharing everyone!

 

[Mary]

Very interesting article about high-dose thiamine: Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency” (eonutrition.co.uk)

 

[Mary]

MODERATOR NOTE: Six posts were moved from this thread: https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/my-summer-vacation.84715/ to this one in an attempt to keep the former thread on topic. Apologies for any small pockets of unrelated information migrated here.

Dang, @Mary - that’s rough. I’m so sorry. I battle crazy insomnia too and recently had to cave and start taking Trazodone along with melatonin. Any least bit of anticipation keeps me awake most or all night. Especially if it’s something good. I’ve had to cancel engagements due to not sleeping a wink. But I’m glad your son’s okay and you weren’t exposed.

@2Cor.12:19 - I've just been reading an article about mega-dosing thiamine and how it purportedly can help so many different things, including energy, sleep, SIBO etc too - I saw your other thread about high dose thiamine. I just read this article which was extremely interesting: Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency” (eonutrition.co.uk) I'm currently taking 400 mg thiamine but am going to start increasing it. It sounds too good to be true! But increasing your dose might help your insomnia, though I'd go slowly. Apparently mega dose thiamine can help with neurotoxicity, which can cause severe insomnia.

One other thing I wanted to suggest are breathing exercises - see this post - believe it or not, they really can help calm you down and switch from sympathetic to parasympathetic dominant.

 

[ljimbo423]

I see no difference so far in my symptoms, except I might be sleeping better. (I am sleeping better, but whether or not it is due to the thiamin I'm not sure. It could just be a random streak of sleeping better.)

100 mg a day of thiamine has completely stopped my insomnia. I only get about 3-4 hours of sleep 3-4 nights a week without it. With it, I get about 8 hours of sleep out of 9 every night. It's made such a big difference.

 

[Learner1]

Oh, Mary! So sorry for your non-vacation! I hope to get to do something enjoyable soon And can at least catch up with your family through Zoom...

I've just been reading an article about mega-dosing thiamine and how it purportedly can help so many different things, including energy, sleep, SIBO etc too - I saw your other thread about high dose thiamine. I just read this article which was extremely interesting: Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency” (eonutrition.co.uk) I'm currently taking 400 mg thiamine but am going to start increasing it. It sounds too good to be true! But increasing your dose might help your insomnia, though I'd go slowly. Apparently mega dose thiamine can help with neurotoxicity, which can cause severe insomnia.

I would be very careful about megadosing thiamine, particularly the type that EO is pushing and makes a profit off of. It's best to test and see if one is short of thiamine first.

I did well on 750ng benfotiamine for three or four years, and then reading all that stuff about mega dosing thiamine, and all the stuff about allithiamine, TTFD, And that's supposedly it gets through the BBB when benfo doesn't (which I don't think is correct) I started asking those folks what the dosing equivalent would be, and nobody could give me a straight answer, just "Try it, Great stuff!!!"

So, against my better judgment, I decided to try 300 mg a day of Thiamax. Within a week, I got neuropathy down the front of my legs, complete with painful nerve zaps. Unfortunately it took me another couple weeks to figure out what had done this, with daily pain and nerve zaps, until I finally realized it and stopped. I took no thiamine for a few days, then gradually built my way back up to my 750 mg dose of benfotiamine, which I think actually does get through the blood brain barrier, and eventually most of the neuropathy went away, and the nerve zaps stopped pretty quickly.

I've heard since, but I'm not totally sure, but it could be that this happened because of the oxidative stress I have and problems with keeping enough glutathione around. But none of this was any of the literature from the people who are pushing the high dose thiamine and the Thiamax.

So, just as with too much vitamin C, too much of other nutrients can backfire, particularly if one is just taking them and doesn't know what ones needs are...

Lesson learned the hard way.

 

[Mary]

Oh, Mary! So sorry for your non-vacation! I hope to get to do something enjoyable soon And can at least catch up with your family through Zoom...

Thanks @Learner1 ! will have to consider Zoom . . . we have had some video calls on WhatsApp though my phone has been acting weird and doesn't seem to want to do the video!

I would be very careful about megadosing thiamine, particularly the type that EO is pushing and makes a profit off of. It's best to test and see if one is short of thiamine first.

I completely agree with you! This thread wasn't about thiamine mega dosing, I just wanted to give a quick mention of the article to 2Cor, as she's talked about thiamine in a different thread.

I've written several times about how 100 mg. of thiamine gave me good energy and then severe fatigue as it caused my phosphorous to tank and it took quite awhile to figure it out. So I generally always recommend that people go low and start slow with any new supplement. And of course your experience shows why it's so important to go slow. I don't want to imagine how bad I would have felt if I had started with a higher dose of thiamine. fwiw, drinking several glasses of kefir helped the fatigue to abate and eventually I started taking a phosphorous supplement a few times a week and I'm now able to take thiamine with no problem. But I will be on the lookout for more fatigue or other symptoms when I increase my thiamine dose (gradually). I'm currently taking 400 mg. with no problem, apart from needing phosphorous a couple of times a week.

Also, I'm not recommending thiamax. I didn't even realize that EO was pushing his own product. The only thing I was recommending was reading the article. The article says that the (potential) effect of mega dosing thiamine has nothing to do with whether someone is deficient or not. They can have "normal" levels and still have lots of health problems. Actually the title is: Mega-Dose Thiamine: Beyond Addressing “Deficiency”

Here's a quote:

Overwhelming toxicity and chronic oxidative stress have the capacity to inactivate thiamine-dependent enzymes involved in the generation of cellular energy, producing biochemical changes which are similar to clinical thiamine deficiency.

This could basically be referred to as “functional” thiamine deficiency.

In a functional deficiency dietary thiamine intake is somewhat irrelevant, because the concentrations obtained via the diet are simply not sufficient to overcome enzymatic inactivation.

Instead, extremely high concentrations of thiamine are often necessary to overcome the “metabolic block” and restore the deranged metabolism back to normal. Dr Derrick Lonsdale has discussed this concept on many occasions and laid out the theory in his various writings.

The article has links to several studies, it's not just an opinion piece. You're more of a scientist than I am so I'd be curious to get your take on the article. But in a different thread! We're derailing this one

 

[Kadar]

@Learner1 Do you know what half-life benfotiamine has? I can't find in internet, only abstract answers. I wonder how you tolerate 750 mg of benfotiamine everyday for so long period. I guess it's genetics, malabsorption or.. I used to take 150-250mg a day when I felt almost diabetic due to hard manganese deficiency I created using lots of vitamin D, E(and K). Now with vitamin A and manganese I feel that they activating all taken b1 and it looks like overdose because my zinc and b6 drops very fast 
And will molybdenum help to drop b1?

 

[Timaca]

100 mg a day of thiamine has completely stopped my insomnia. I only get about 3-4 hours of sleep 3-4 nights a week without it. With it, I get about 8 hours of sleep out of 9 every night. It's made such a big difference.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing! How much thiamine do you take? 100 mg?

 

[Learner1]

@Learner1 Do you know what half-life benfotiamine has? I can't find in internet, only abstract answers. I wonder how you tolerate 750 mg of benfotiamine everyday for so long period. I guess it's genetics, malabsorption or..

Around 2 weeks, supposedly. Benfotiamine is more absorbable than other forms of thiamine and pretty safe.

I have methylation running pretty fast and I'm trying to get rid of toxins, so I'm using it. It's also used in other processes, so I think I'm probably using it there too.

I used to take 150-250mg a day when I felt almost diabetic due to hard manganese deficiency I created using lots of vitamin D, E(and K).

Do you have a diagram of that? I don't understand...

Now with vitamin A and manganese I feel that they activating all taken b1 and it looks like overdose because my zinc and b6 drops very fast 

Do you have a diagram of that? I'm not following? How do you know your zinc and B6 drop very fast?

And will molybdenum help to drop b1?

Molybdenum is used with B1 in the transulation pathway, in the lower left corner of this diagram, under where it says Pyruvate - Sulfite.

 

[Kadar]

@Learner1 2 weeks sounds not so bad.. No, I haven't diagrams and I rely on symptoms because I don't have that much budget to check every situation I had for last 2 years experimenting with vitamins. I just use other people experiences and websites that mention interaction between supps (like acu-cell) and I'm successful in it. After using vitamin D I began to have palpitations and heat after meals and b1 helped with it but effect lasted until the next meal. As I understood b1 wasn't stored, and found info that manganese stores b1. So after taking manganese I didn't need that much b1 anymore. It seems K2 and D use manganese as many other minerals to build bones.
About zinc and b6: b6 is used to up zinc levels, I have diarrhea and heat after meals (without palpitations), neuropathy now and b6+zinc help with all that. + when I take vitamin A with b1 I have huge potassium and b6 drop rather when I take b1 alone. Vitamin A is known as b1 cofactor.
thanks for answer and pdf!

 

[ljimbo423]

How much thiamine do you take? 100 mg?

Yes, I take 100 mg a day. I divide it up because if I take it all at once I get over-stimulated. I find it ironic that it stimulates me during the day but stops my insomnia at night.

 

[Learner1]

I have huge potassium and b6 drop rather when I take b1 alone

How do you know this?