Low-dose thiamine: increasing energy, raising BP

[sb4]

Woe is me.

I was hit with massive heart palpitations keeping me up for hours and high BP again, yet I haven't really changed much...

I hear the posts about chloride, but I have been taking it for a while now, this high BP thing is of definite onset from either thiamine or b-minus. I will reduce my dosages today, do some reading on this and I find anything, report back.

 

[Mary]

Woe is me.

I was hit with massive heart palpitations keeping me up for hours and high BP again, yet I haven't really changed much...

I hear the posts about chloride, but I have been taking it for a while now, this high BP thing is of definite onset from either thiamine or b-minus. I will reduce my dosages today, do some reading on this and I find anything, report back.

Sorry to hear that! I hope you get it sorted out soon ---

 

[Gondwanaland]

high BP thing is of definite onset from either thiamine or b-minus

I would say it is the B1. I had it too , and couldn't repeat the good outcome from the 1st dose.

I read that B1 blocks cortisol breakdown, so this could be the reason. Perhaps adding B2 and/or zinc could help, but my guess is some people (like me) would never master its supplementation because the sweet balancing spot is constantly changing .

 

[Eastman]

I read that B1 blocks cortisol breakdown, so this could be the reason...

But there is also this:

In rats, thiamin deficiency has been shown to have a fairly dramatic effect on adrenal function. In a study looking at rats induced with thiamin deficiency, the rats experienced an exaggerated cortisol response to stress within 2 weeks, with a complete exhaustion of the adrenals within 4 weeks(8). The adrenals increased in size throughout the study and the mitochondria within the area of the adrenals responsible for cortisol secretion became swollen.

Source.

 

[Gondwanaland]

But there is also this:

induced with thiamin deficiency, the rats experienced an exaggerated cortisol response to stress within 2 weeks, with a complete exhaustion of the adrenals within 4 weeks
Source.

I think this is what MB12 + Mfolate did to me

 

[frozenborderline]

i'm experimenting with high dose thiamine, is the bp issue something to worry about? has anyone figured out if it's due to another nutrient being depleted?

i started with 2g thiamine, interesting feeling, very tense, it was maybe too much

 

[Mary]

@debored13 - that is a really high dose. I don't think it's a good idea to start anything at a high dose because you don't know how you're going to react and thiamine is very powerful stuff.

I forgot I had started this thread back in 2015. Some time later I started taking 100 mg. of thiamine and had a really nice boost in energy which lasted about a day (2 max) and then I was hit with bad fatigue. I eventually figured out it was due to refeeding syndrome but the problem this time wasn't low potassium, but low phosphorous. This article alerted me to the possibility of hypophosphatemia, the hallmark of refeeding syndrome, the same process which causes potassium to tank during methylation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/

From what I read, supplementing with phosphorous or phosphate is trickier than potassium, you have to go much more carefully. I read that dairy is good source of phosphorous so I drank several glasses of kefir over a period of some hours and that horrible fatigue started to lift. Gradually I was able to increase the thiamine and I'm now taking 300 mg. a day - 150 mg. benfotiamine 2 x a day.

In the meanwhile, my BP seems okay with that and I just drink kefir a few times a week (it's good for my gut too!) I also eat a lot of sunflower seeds which are high in phosphorous (and magnesium).

I am learning that everything is interconnected. Thiamine deficiency itself is another facet of refeeding syndrome.

So you could deplete potassium or phosphorous or other Bs with that high of a dose, and maybe other things too. Hypomagnesemia is another potential outcome of refeeding syndrome, so maybe you're depleting magnesium, which could obviously make you tense.

I think it's unwise to play with such a high dose and that it would be much better to go slower so that you're able to deal with whatever reactions you may have. I don't know what my body would have done if I'd started with 1 or 2 grams of thiamine!

 

[frozenborderline]

@debored13 - that is a really high dose. I don't think it's a good idea to start anything at a high dose because you don't know how you're going to react and thiamine is very powerful stuff.

I forgot I had started this thread back in 2015. Some time later I started taking 100 mg. of thiamine and had a really nice boost in energy which lasted about a day (2 max) and then I was hit with bad fatigue. I eventually figured out it was due to refeeding syndrome but the problem this time wasn't low potassium, but low phosphorous. This article alerted me to the possibility of hypophosphatemia, the hallmark of refeeding syndrome, the same process which causes potassium to tank during methylation: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2440847/

From what I read, supplementing with phosphorous or phosphate is trickier than potassium, you have to go much more carefully. I read that dairy is good source of phosphorous so I drank several glasses of kefir over a period of some hours and that horrible fatigue started to lift. Gradually I was able to increase the thiamine and I'm now taking 300 mg. a day - 150 mg. benfotiamine 2 x a day.

In the meanwhile, my BP seems okay with that and I just drink kefir a few times a week (it's good for my gut too!) I also eat a lot of sunflower seeds which are high in phosphorous (and magnesium).

I am learning that everything is interconnected. Thiamine deficiency itself is another facet of refeeding syndrome.

So you could deplete potassium or phosphorous or other Bs with that high of a dose, and maybe other things too. Hypomagnesemia is another potential outcome of refeeding syndrome, so maybe you're depleting magnesium, which could obviously make you tense.

I think it's unwise to play with such a high dose and that it would be much better to go slower so that you're able to deal with whatever reactions you may have. I don't know what my body would have done if I'd started with 1 or 2 grams of thiamine!

This is concerning... but I'm wondering if it will be an issue after just a couple days.

according to the study I looked at, they needed doses of 1500-1800 mg to get effects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3669831/


http://www.resonantfm.com/thiamine-b1-and-chronic-fatigue/

This has a whole explanation of why high doses are necessary to cure CFS, possibly?
I read the article on refeeding syndrome but didn't see anything on thiamin or b vitamins in specific causing this?? but I may have read sloppily, do have a lot of brain fog.

I think such high doses are maybe necessary to achieve remission or the necessary effects, but if it really can be that dangerous maybe i'll wait to run it by my doctor

 

[Mary]

Hi @debored13 - I think the study you cited is worded a little unclearly, but from my reading, it says that doses of 600 - 1800 mg were needed to get results and one patient did well on 600 mg. They started at 600 mg and increased if need be every 3 days by 300 mg. They didn't start at the highest dose.

I totally agree with you that some people may need very high doses of B1. I had read about people having good results with high dose B1 which is why originally I started taking it. My concern was you starting out at a very high dose all at once instead of working up to it. Looking at what I wrote to you, I wasn't clear about this - you may need a very high dose of B1 - but you may not also, and the big problem I saw was starting with that very high doses. It did not sound like you had worked up to it.

I also totally agree that people with ME/CFS very often need high doses of certain nutrients - but - we also tend to be extremely sensitive to various nutrients. I'm sure you've seen on the board people reacting quite strongly to very small doses of B12 or folate. I need two 5,000 mcg. doses of B12 a day. Other people can barely tolerate it a fraction of that. But I do badly with extra B2 (beyond what's in my B complex), while others love it.

I reacted so strongly to 100 mg of B1 with such severe fatigue after the initial boost in energy, I really can't imagine what my body would have done with 2 grams of it all at once. And it took me a little while to figure out what was going on.

About refeeding syndrome and B vitamins - I'm sure you've seen all the posts about potassium tanking with the methylation protocol. Well, that's an instance of B vitamins causing refeeding syndrome. It's potentially dangerous if potassium drops too far too quickly and the person doesn't know what's going on.

Here's a thread on potassium and methylation: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291422

About thiamine and phosphorous and refeeding syndrome - all I can tell you is my experience. The refeeding syndrome article does say that hypophosphatemia is the hallmark of refeeding syndrome. So it makes perfect sense to me that if there is a nutritional deficiency (whether B vitamin or otherwise), it could trigger some aspect of refeeding syndrome, including hypophosphatemia.

Here's a definition of refeeding syndrome from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refeeding_syndrome)

Refeeding syndrome is a syndrome consisting of metabolic disturbances that occur as a result of reinstitution of nutrition to patients who are starved, severely malnourished or metabolically stressed due to severe illness.

I think we'd all agree that persons with ME/CFS are metabolically stressed.