What has helped you with sleep/insomnia - post links

[Wishful]

This might be of interest to some people who have trouble sleeping:

https://newatlas.com/technology/temp-controlled-mattress-thermostat-sleep/

It's not a presently available product, but the concept of heating or cooling different body parts differently might be helpful. Mittens, hoods, thermal socks, etc might make a difference in how well you sleep or how quickly you fall asleep.

 

[lenora]

Thanks@Wishful. Yes, I'm constantly looking for a newer, better mattress. I've lost count of the number of ones I've tried over the past year....embarassed, I should say!

I now have a new Avocado mattress and somehow managed to slide off it the other morning....I guess I'll get the topper and see how that works. Having a mechanical mattress makes everything much harder insofar as finding a good mattress goes. It's as if I can never get comfortable....but then I do have FM and can see exactly where the fairy-tale about the Princess & the Pea came from. I'm sure it's a true story.

My grandchildren (two oldest) go the very university mentioned in the article you posted. I wonder if the engineering dept. worked on this. I really dislike looking for mattresses. Thanks for your watchful eye in finding this article. Yours, Lenora

 

[keenly]

For me it's 30mg mirtazapine plus 50mg diphenhydramine.
I'm aware of the dangers of anticholinergics but it's my hope that the 'cholinergics' I take (citicoline, ALCAR) mitigate things in that regard.
This combo works a bit too well so I sleep for 12 hours (fragmented and unrefreshingly, but on balance the lesser of the evils). However if I cut the dosages at all then insomnia reasserts itself.
Also due to very long elimination half lives the daytime grogginess is quite extreme. But I find that 600mg of adrafinil counters that nicely.

Using anticholinergics to sleep has made my POTS much worse.

 

[YippeeKi YOW !!]

Using anticholinergics to sleep has made my POTS much worse.

Ditto. But like @SpiralOut , Ive found that taking things that support choline as well as cholinesterase inhibitors makes a huge diff ....

But we're all different in our responses to things, so what works for A may or may not work for B, and may make C a lost worse.

Which is why we live in a universe where we're all our own Petrie dishes and lab rats. What .... fun .

 

[keenly]

Ditto. But like @SpiralOut , Ive found that taking things that support choline as well as cholinesterase inhibitors makes a huge diff ....

But we're all different in our responses to things, so what works for A may or may not work for B, and may make C a lost worse.

Which is why we live in a universe where we're all our own Petrie dishes and lab rats. What .... fun .

Any type of choline, including sunflower lecithin powder gives me terrible insomnia.

 

[perchance dreamer]

Any type of choline, including sunflower lecithin powder gives me terrible insomnia.

Same here, which is too bad. Choline really helps me with energy, but isn't worth the insomnia.

 

[Crux]

Any type of choline, including sunflower lecithin powder gives me terrible insomnia.

Same here, which is too bad. Choline really helps me with energy, but isn't worth the insomnia.

Choline supplements are over stimulating to me too, even though I keep trying them from time to time.
I 'm back again to foods. I can tolerate eggs( high in choline) even though they are high in phosphorus, which gives me insomnia.
( sunflower lecithin is high in phosphorus)

Beef liver is high in choline. It has an antifatigue factor - anecdotal comments.

Calcium chelate has been the most effective supplement for my insomnia.

 

[FrenchSand]

Melatonine helped me to have proper sleep cycle, with the feeling of having an effective sleep in the morning. It was effective from 2017 to ~ 2021 and now my body is used to , and it doesn't have any more effect. My doctor says I have to wait 2 months before trying to take it again and see if it's back to normal.

I was on moderate ME, and now I'm back to be bedridden all day long because not enough sleep.

On my "normal" sleep, I'm on a severe jet lag... Cannot sleep before morning 6:30 AM exactly) and I can sleep all day, it's like I don't have slept at all. I've tried to sleep 5, 8, 10,12 hours long, the effect is the same, looks like a comatose sleep ... Not deep, not refreshing. Nothing help.

Ps: will try evening primrose oil.
PS2: I've checked. It's "huile d'onagre" in french, and I already take it for my hormonal cycle... Maybe I could try to x3 it to see if it's working. We don't have the same brands back here.
.

 

[perchance dreamer]

The most effective melatonin I've found is REMfresh LITE. I take the .5 MG. It's also available in 2 MG and 5 MG doses. I get mine from Amazon.

 

[Mary]

@FrenchSand - Alpha lipoic acid might help restore your sleep cycle - see this thread - but be aware that ALA can chelate mercury, causing re-toxing (detox problems) so it's best to go low and slow with it.

I've recently started a new sleep protocol, combing several different things:

1. Delta 8 CBD - regular CBD oil does nothing for me. I don't know what the heck Delta 8 is, it has no THC, but it's very relaxing and is helping me with sleep. It's legal in areas where medical marijuana is not. I used to use a THC product when I was in California, but I didn't like the way it made me feel and I don't mind the Delta 8 at all.

2. The Pose - I haven't done this regularly for 5 years now but have restarted it for the past 5 or 6 days and sleep is a bit better. If it does end up revving up my thyroid in a few weeks, I think I'll try adjusting my thyroid med, instead of stopping the pose. I'm also wondering if it will end up helping my HPA axis - increasing blood flow to the brain and if it helps my thyroid, who knows what else it could help with?

3. n-acetyl-glucosamine (NAG) - this is one of Hip's anti-anxiety supps, it helps reduce or process glutamate in the brain, so I've started taking it in the middle of the night and it does help with calming my brain.

4. A massager seat like this one helps me with sleep too - I do it 30 - 45 minutes at night - I think it hits some acupressure points.

Doing all of the above has made rather a large difference in how I sleep, as my sleep got very bad in recent months. Also I take my usual stuff, melatonin, l-theanine, taurine, vitamin C, niacin, inositol and a new supplement (for me) called Seditol, which helps a little too. It's crazy - a whole protocol around sleep, but without sleep, well, too horrible to contemplate!

 

[Wishful]

I think for most healthy people, sleep is something to look forward to. I'm kind of dreading sleep: lying there for hours trying to fall asleep, then waking up every 90 minutes and again dreading that this waking won't let me return to sleep. Worrying about whether I won't be able to fall asleep isn't helpful for falling asleep.

 

[Wishful]

PS2: I've checked. It's "huile d'onagre" in french, and I already take it for my hormonal cycle... Maybe I could try to x3 it to see if it's working.

What time you take it matters, but that probably varies with the person, so you'd need to experiment with that. What you eat with/before/after may affect how well it works too. I expect it will only benefit a small fraction of people, but for those of us with sleep problems, I think it's a cheap, safe thing to try.

For me, the fats from ruminant meats were most effective when I first tried them (after not having any for many months). After a couple of weeks, the benefits were barely noticeable. EPO still does work for me, but not as well as at first.

 

[lenora]

Sleep is a huge problem for us....and it seems that more of us are women than men. Is that true?

I don't know the ages of most of the women, but I'm wondering how much hormones could possibly play into this. For those of us pre or post-menopausal it can be a huge problem for many years. I have noticed that much. I'm now 75 yrs. old, started with menopause at 40 and had sleep problems before that pre-menopausal?). Of course who expects this nonsense to go on into one's 70's?

Also, for those younger, I wonder if PMS can play a role.....would younger women pay particular attention to this?

No matter what we're taking or doing, I do think our routines have to be changed from time to time b/c the body becomes used to what we're doing....overloaded in some way or another. I don't have any obvious answers, but have lived with insomnia for so many years that it's not unusual for me in the least.

I don't think there's anything obvious that I haven't tried...whether natural or a med. Nothing works for long, but I have been sleeping better now than I have in years. Approx. 3 day/swk. awake compared to my old pattern. I know I can't take stimulation near bedtime....telephone calls are out after about 4:00 p.m. (voice has gone by then anyway), no food, watch the news and TV for about 2-3 hrs., and then read for as long as I want.

If I can't sleep, I leave the bedroom and putz around in another room....often with my computer. For some odd reason, that doesn't seem to bother me. I can't think of anything I haven't tried, but do wish all of you well. Sleep well. Yours, Lenora

 

[Mary]

I think for most healthy people, sleep is something to look forward to. I'm kind of dreading sleep: lying there for hours trying to fall asleep, then waking up every 90 minutes and again dreading that this waking won't let me return to sleep. Worrying about whether I won't be able to fall asleep isn't helpful for falling asleep.

Several years ago I discovered that taking niacin before bed helped me to fall asleep more quickly. I don't remember how I came to try this, but am glad I did - here's one study on mice: Nicotinic acid promotes sleep through prostaglandin synthesis in mice | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

If I take niacin in the morning or during the day, it makes me tired - I'm guessing because it slows down methylation but I have no problems taking it before bed (400 mg) and 300 mg more middle of the night. It does make me flush which I'm used to. I got my sister taking it and she noticed a difference in her sleep right away. My former doctor (unfortunately now deceased) told me that the safe upper limit for niacin is around 1000 mg. If you try it, don't get the time release kind as that has been associated with liver damage - non-stop bathing the liver in niacin causes the problem.

Maybe a good CBD oil might help too? Years ago CBD oil did nothing for me, but I think they make better products nowadays. And I've discovered a CBD product (no THC) called Delta 8 which is helping me with sleep also.

 

[Wayne]

a whole protocol around sleep

Hi @Mary -- I too have problems with sleep, but seemingly not to the extent that you and others do. I recently discovered from my chiropractor a device that helps me relax deeply. I can't say for sure it helps with my sleep (I think it does), but if I do wake up, and feel fairly agitated (which happens quite often), I put on the headphones and app described below (which I posted on a tinnitus forum) , and I feel soooooo much better within 5-10 minutes, even better after 20 minutes.

It apparently was designed as a treatment for the vestibular system and the auditory cortex. I think both of these are stressed in most of us to a high degree just by the world we live in on a daily basis, with all the EMFs, radiation, and stuff like that. Anyway, the description below gives you an outline of what it's all about. It has made a very big difference in my daily quality of life, primarily because I can spend much more time in deep relaxation, which sort of substitutes for sleep at times.
.......................................................................

Tone Pacer Pro for Android​

​

"The Tone Pacer Pro application is the professional version of the popular Tone Pacer APP...

...The Pro Version due to its flexibility also lends itself for notch-like treatment protocols that have been shown to attenuate tinnitus and Stochastic Vestibular Stimulation.

The Pro version was design to meet the needs of professionals seeking an application for the generation of acoustical auditory stimulus."
........................​

I regularly visit a chiropractor who uses a wide variety of "alternative" modalities. He muscle tests for everything he does, including his normal chiropractic adjustments. He does the same for various other modalities he employs. One day he checked to see if I might benefit from a relatively new app he'd just gotten called the Tone Pacer PRO ($60), which is used in conjunction with AfterShokz Headphones (around $100 U.S.).​

​

After testing for which frequencies I needed, and for how long, I laid down for 20 minutes and let it do its thing. Within a few minutes, I was pretty gob-smacked by how relaxing it was. As somebody who's done many, many things over the years to help calm down my body, brain, and neurological system (including using benzodiazepines), I could hardly believe how something so seemingly simple could be so relaxing.​

​

I recently purchased this app so I could use it regularly at home, and have found it very helpful to be able to do this on a daily basis. One thing I've done in the past that seems somewhat similar to this Tone Pacer PRO is a microcurrent device called Alpha-Stim. I paid about $600 for that unit, and found it to be very helpful. But this Tone Pacer PRO experience feels much deeper than my Alpha-Stim experience. At least part of the reason could be that it has both a gentle vibratory and auditory stimulus.​

 

[Mary]

Hi @Wayne - thanks for all the info! Your chiropractor sounds very similar to one I was seeing for several years in California. I recently moved to Texas (!) and don't have a replacement yet.

Your Tone Pacer Pro sounds like a combination (perhaps?) of binaural beats and something called an Apollo Neuro. I used a binaural beats app for awhile, it helped a little in calming my brain and then I got on to something else and forgot about it

The Apollo Neuro uses vibration for relaxation - See this post - I bought one - it had a slight calming effect on me but not enough to justify the $350 cost, so I returned it.

My new/old protocol is working, for now at least! I think the pose I linked above is especially powerful but the Delta 8 is good too, and the NAG - all of the above - Everything including the kitchen sink! I could write a book on this I think!

Anyways, I'm not going to spend more money right now but I'll keep this in mind - you never know. Also, the link for the android app doesn't work and I went to google play and it does not have the Tone Pacer Pro app, which is unfortunate.

I remember reading about Alpha Stim several years ago and I considered getting one of those but never did - it was quite pricey.

Thanks again @Wayne

 

[lenora]

Hello @Mary.....As much as I'm dreading having hot flashes (again), may I ask what you consider a beginner's dose of niacin? I don't have any....would have to order it.

I'm now on so many different things including meds for my heart, seizures and on and on it goes. This may interfere with the addition of niacin, but who knows without trying?

I'm willing to give it a go and appreciate your advice, you also, Wayne. Yours, Lenora

 

[Mary]

Hello @Mary.....As much as I'm dreading having hot flashes (again), may I ask what you consider a beginner's dose of niacin? I don't have any....would have to order it.

Hi @lenora - I think 50 mg is about the lowest dose you can buy with niacin. Because you have so much going on, I would start with this dose or even cut a pill in half, to see how you react. And if you have little or no reaction, then I'd increase it gradually.

I take 400 mg before bed, but that's a high dose for many people. And then I take 300 mg more in the middle of the night.

In my experience (and this is not scientific!) the kind of niacin that does make you flush is best. You can buy non-flush niacin and I don't think it works as well.

I usually don't flush much any more though every once in awhile I do - I don't know what makes the difference!

 

[Wayne]

niacin

Hi @Mary -- Was wondering if you're aware of some of the books written on niacin which outline how it's good for so many things, including mental health disorders such as schizophrenia.

Also, one thing I use regularly to help me relax and sleep is simple old fashioned hot water bottles. I sometimes put it under a rib area that is often tight, and other times at the back of my neck, and elsewhere. It's a pretty good, simple, easy trick for me.

BTW, the Tone Pacer PRO link that I posted works for me. Not sure why it doesn't work for you.

 

[Judee]

Lately, tart cherry and calcium hydroxyapatite are working for me. I only take a pinch of each to go to sleep and whenever I wake through the night, which is often.

They both work on their own but together they make a pretty nice team and my Garmin says my deep stages of sleep where the brain is supposed to be doing repairs is increased. The only negative is that the calcium makes me more achy so I will sometimes also include a junior acetaminophen.

I tried calcium citrate one night as an alternative and that was worse plus it increased my bladder pain.