Vitamin C liposomal or not

[prioris]

I didn't get into preventive aspects but you made a good point.

Good point about studies. They exclude the people who really need it so they don't include people like us so study is warped. i would expect improvement parameters would be a lot higher in more chronically unhealthy people.

p.s.

just now got back my 24 hour iodine loading test. i excreted 41.4 mg of the 50 mg of iodine so report says I am 83% sufficient so slightly below the 90%. I had 1.66 mg of bromine reading so well below 5 mg.

 

[pamojja]

just now got back my 24 hour iodine loading test.

How much iodine have you been taking the month before the loading test?

 

[prioris]

very little and only for short time.

i took about 5-8 mg of nascent iodine for 7 to 10 days. i was experimenting. i stopped taking any 3 days before the test. i didn't want to fool around with iodine supplementation without something to go on. i think anyone taking high doses should do it under iodine literate physician or at least monitor themselves with online tests. i didn't have any side effect problems but for some people it can be tricky. It's important to take seleniomethionine to avoid pot5ential damage to thyroid. Vitamin C and B2/B3 are suppose to take care of the possible uptake problems.

i'm currently thinking that about 1.3 mg of nascent twice a week could be good. i sense nascent is far better than lugols. i think there are more side effects with lugol for people in general. i think most iodine literate physicians are using nascent or i see that as the trend.

 

[Gondwanaland]

@pamojja
Regarding vitamin C:
1) high doses stimulate bowels, probably because it is a blood thinner, so I suppose it increases water turnover. This and a LCHF diet might prevent possible downsides from supplementing with bile acid antagonists (Lysine, B5, Beta-Alanine)
2) vit C indirectly inhibits zinc absorption by promoting absorption of iron in detriment of zinc.

Additionally, anything that increases HDL will do it by antagonizing zinc - coconut oil, carnosine/carcinine, w3, vit E, again vit C. Since zinc is a building block of sex hormones, it becomes a pro-coagulant, while anti-oxidants have blood thinning effect. My lab results match this info.

 

[pamojja]

2) vit C indirectly inhibits zinc absorption by promoting absorption of iron in detriment of zinc.

Interesting. Though in me only betain-hcl brought iron a bid up. TSAT, TBIC and transferrin still deficient.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Interesting. Though in me only betain-hcl brought iron a bid up. TSAT, TBIC and transferrin still deficient.

I recently read about factors promoting iron absorption but now I forget. If I find it again I will post here. Copper is crucial for iron metabolism. Sulfur, Zinc and vit C are potent copper inhibitors.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Sorry, I haven't read the whole discussion.

High dose vitamin C flushes out metals - both good and bad ones - and is very adstringent = flushes out fat-soluble vitamins. No wonder a very high fat diet works for you @pamojja

I think @prioris approach is more gentle and lipo vit C causes much less turmoil in the body. If one is following the megadose approach, he should be aware of the side effects and make the appropriate many corrections.

Having said that, I tolerate neither one (not even in tiny doses), nor high amounts of sat fats, as I currently find myself depleted of w6 oils. W3 caps and dietary w3 both cause me adverse effects.

 

[pamojja]

If one is following the megadose approach, he should be aware of the side effects and make the appropriate many corrections.

I always maintain that one should go slow, always start with lowest possible doses, add one at at time and increase gradually over months and years. And in that way have the time to make necessary corrections. That's what I did. Once I summarized all my side-effects:

Things that I started on faith and showed noticeable effects (updated):

• Vitamin C - after a PAD diagnosis almost 9 years ago, together with lysine and all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling - pain-free walking distance improved from mere 3-400 meters up to 2 hours. But only once I exceeded the in his view minimal therapeutic dose of 6 g/d each. Side-benefits: a since 2 years persistent skin-rush cleared up, hay-fever symptoms recurring every spring since 15 years got alleviated. HbA1c stayed disproportionally low, compared to higher blood glucose. A cystitis circumscripta of the bladder disappeared. Truly addictive stuff for someone with my health-issues. Only negative side-effect: flatulence.
• Triphala, Trikatu and other Ayurvedic digestion improving ingredients - for reduction of flatulence
• Chondroitin Sulfate - though not taken consistently as recommended here, after some months on about 5 g/d my intermittent symptoms from PAD completely ceased. And a 60% government-certified walking disability due to that has been revoked since!
• CoQ10 - some years before supplementing I always got angina-like chest pain under conditions of persisting stress (mental or physical). Above 150 mg/d CoQ10 (or half that with Ubiqunol) it's gone. However, whenever I drop below that intake the chest-pain is back - now without any stress.
• Magnesium - with a severe deficiency I immediately get muscle-cramps without (now at 2.4 g/d elemental, of about 1,6 g/d for 9 years in average). With the higher dose my blood glucose readings came down and infrequent retinal migraine ceased.
• Vitamin A - from 24.000 IU onward prevented any further psoriasis outbreaks.
• Resistant Starch - since adding unmodified Potato Starch to a moderately low carb diet (~70 g/d), I first noticed a light blood-glucose drop, second a mood lift, and thirdly remember vivid dreams.
• Vitamin B3, Nicotinic acid - strong vasodilation effects with tingling, heat and reddened skin for about 20 minutes with multiples gram doses. Initially not pleasant at all, but by getting used to much milder. Intended for improving lipids, especially more difficult one's, like raising HDL or lowering Lp(a). However, beside taxing the liver again (much less though than sustained-release Niacin), with a already weakened liver (from Malarias and their treatment), I could see with each rise/fall of liver enzymes an responding change in lipids-numbers (deterioration/improving). Worsening of liver-enzymes counteracted with other supplements.
• Arginine, AAKG, Citrulline - above 3 g at night a morning erection (with my 80% blockage at my abdominal aorta a thing of the past otherwise).
• Vitamin D3 - initially noticeable increase of energy.
• Beta Alanine - light vasodilation with slight tingling.
• Potassium Iodide - once made the experiment if I could handle the 130 mg iodide recommended in the case of a nuclear emergency without going hyper. Within 10 days gradually increased from my usual intake of 10 mg/d up to 100 mg, where I run out of it. Energetically felt better every day.
• Melatonin - makes me sleepy and thereby improves circadian rhythm.
• Lycopene, Astaxanthin and other Carotenoids - suspect them to be responsible that I haven't had any sun-burns since supplementing almost 9 years now. And for halting the rapid decline of my eyesight.
• Biotin - suspect it having been responsible for fuller hair, thinner after substantially reducing the dose again.
• Cholines - helped to improve liver-enzymes. However, also get chaw tension above a certain intake, initially above 500 mg/d, then already above 300 mg/d. Now tolerance is increasing again.
• LIV.52 and Cystone (Himalaya company) - Ayurvedic blends which improved liver-enzymes further, as well as kidney function markers. Additionally 2 non-circulated nodules on the right edge of the liver (5 + 8 mm) disappeared.
• Omega3s - together with a low cab diet reduced serum triglycerides.
• Piracetam and Sulbutiamine - though only low dose initially also caused a spaced-out feeling. But much easier socializing, speech-fluency and focus as remaining effects.

Things that I started on faith and showed noticeable (negative) effects:

• Metformin - appetite reduction and weight gain. Discontinued because of severe nausea and vomiting.
• Aspirin - not used much because of bloody stools repeatedly after only one baby aspirin.
• Zink - above 60 mg/d and without balancing with Copper: headache

Things that I started on faith and showed no effects - except maybe, being still alive while my diagnosing MD predicted a 30% chance of dying within 5 years: ...

High dose vitamin C flushes out metals - both good and bad ones - and is very adstringent = flushes out fat-soluble vitamins.

In my long experience most toxic heavy metals have indeed reduced (except copper), most needed ones have improved (except Mg due to high turnover by vitamin D3). I've been deficient in all vitamins and minerals before starting to supplement, not anymore so. And I've been a very low-fat vegan for 30 years before getting really ill. acu-cell.com's observations - you so often state as your source - disappointingly hasn't shown relevant in my experience at all.

No wonder I improved that much. Admittedly, some of my lab-tests are still off, but far from how bad they've been. However, just 2 weeks ago I got rid of the elephant in the room - where all troubles started 11 years ago with infections (schistosomiasis, pericarditis) - my only root-canal treated tooth.

Having said that, I tolerate neither one (not even in tiny doses), nor high amounts of sat fats, as I currently find myself depleted of w6 oils.

You're all the time so helpful, really wish you to find a way out of that trap.

 

[lyran]

I started taking 8g of liposomal vitamin C per day to try to lower my EBV viral load. Yesterday I took 2x 4g with no problems but today when I took the first 4g dose, I had diarrhea. I thought liposomal vitamin C doesn't cause diarrhea with high doses.

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[pamojja]

Has anyone else had this problem?

If you look at the case study I posted on page 1 of this thread, two individuals did get loose stools from the phospholipids in liposomal C itself at 36g.

Since that happens with plan ascorbic acid at very individual levels (from 1 to 100s of grams; in my case can tolerate up to 50 grams a day without loose stools), it is very probable that phospholipids too have very individual bowel tolerance limits.

 

[pamojja]

The following is the only case study to my knowledge which compared liposomal against ordinary ascorbic acid. Quite strange, in that they compared merely 5 gram of regular oral ascorbic acid to 20g or 36g liposomal. Resulting plasma levels of equal oral doses (5g) showed almost identical!

Pharmacokinetics of oral vitamin C​

​

STEPHEN HICKEY, HILARY J. ROBERTS, & NICHOLAS J. MILLER​

​

"Figure 1 shows the response of the female subject to single 5 g doses of liposomal and​

standard formulation vitamin C; both produced similar response curves. These results are​

comparable in form and magnitude to those expected for oral vitamin C in previously​

depleted subjects. However, peak values exceeded 220 mM L which has been reported as​

the maximum value attainable with repeated oral doses of 3 g six times daily [8]. The​

subjects were experienced users of high-dose vitamin C and neither suffered any​

gastrointestinal effects at this dose level.5 "​

View attachment 25259​

​

Increasing the dose of liposomal vitamin C to 20g gave a broader response, with​

a delayed maximum, as shown in Figure 2. In this graph, the 20g liposomal dose is​

compared with a 5g standard dose (male subject). With a 20g intake, the peak plasma​

level was delayed and the response was broader, indicating a greater absorption of​

vitamin C. The 5g data set shows a marked outlier (peak): this is attributed to the fact​

that one of the (5g) blood samples was difficult to extract, with inflammation at the​

puncture site, providing only a small sample. The subject experienced no bowel​

tolerance effects at either of these intakes.​

View attachment 25261​

​

Figure 3 shows plasma levels following a 36g dose of liposomal vitamin C, for​

both subjects. This resulted in peak plasma levels, in the region of 400 µM/L. A 95%​

interfractile range (34-114), which contains 95% of the distribution with a mean of 74​

corresponds to a calculated standard deviation of 17.4. We note that, under these​

conditions, an outlier measurement of 400 µM/L would correspond to a deviation of​

10.3 σ with a theoretical p value of 1.6x10 -13 (i.e. P<0.0000000000001). With this high​

dose, both subjects exceeded their bowel tolerance, leading to diarrhoea. This​

intolerance presumably arose from the high intake of phospholipid, without food​

buffering, in fasting individuals. However, our observations using hourly doses suggest​

that daily intakes of this magnitude are tolerable without bowel effects, as long as the​

dose is spread throughout the day.​

View attachment 25260​

​

​

36 grams!!! of Liposomal vitamin C didn't even reach the 517 µmol/L serum levels of ordinary 20g of oral ascorbic acid spread out through the day, as in the previous study!


Buyer beware!

Hot new in the press. Dr. Levy (together with Nina Mikirova and Ronald Hunninghake) finally did measure the leukocytes cell's conctration, comparing liposomal to ordinary ascorbic acid (and with hydrocortisone).

https://isom.ca/article/

Summary

• Comparisons of the liposome-encapsulated and non-encapsulated (powder) ascorbate supplementations demonstrated that liposomal ascorbate intake results in longer retention of ascorbate in blood. Plasma concentrations of ascorbate remained at the level of 100% increase during 3 hours for non-encapsulated ascorbate and longer than 4.5 hours for liposomal ascorbate. The maximum percentage of ascorbate increase was the same for both formulations and reached 150%-170%.

• The concentrations of ascorbate in white blood cells were changed after intake of ascorbate in the form of non-encapsulated and encapsulated liposomal ascorbate supplementations. The average maximum increase in the concentrations of ascorbate in cells was the same for both formulations (in range 40%÷50%). The data show that liposomal ascorbate resulted in faster intake by cells. The comparison of the areas under the curve for concentrations that were higher than initial levels showed that AUC was on 50% larger for liposomal formulation in comparison with non-encapsulated ascorbate.

• The data support our hypothesis that hydrocortisone can have effect on the uptake of ascorbate by cells, when it is given as an adjuvant to ascorbate supplementation. The injection of hydrocortisone before intake of supplements resulted in more favorable percentage of intracellular ascorbate intake.

• The weakness of the study is the low number of the participants and the measurements of ascorbate concentrations in plasma and cells by a method based on the condensation reaction of dehydroascorbic with formation of colored product that was detected by fluorescence.

Emphasis added by me. So again, the same plasma concentrations with both 5 gram ordinary and liposomal ascorbic acid, but a little bid longer retention. Area under the curve concentration in cells 50% larger only.