Vitamin C liposomal or not

pamojja

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It's a jittery heart pounding that happened with the smallest amount of lipo vit c maybe 1/100 of a packet not kidding
I would guess this reaction is form something else in it, not from the sodium ascorbate itself.

Ingredients: Deionized Water, Sodium Ascorbate, Lecithin Phospholipids, Alcohol (ethanol 12% w/w), Xanthum Gum, Citric Acid (for PH adjustment).
What are the benefits of lithium orotate?
https://selfhacked.com/blog/the-benefits-of-lithium/
Always double-check the sources. :) For example this author also mentions effects in animal studies not confirmed in humans.

extra shrimp on the Barbi
?? Could you explain me the meaning of that expression?
 

gettinbetter

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I will consider lithium orotate Thanks for the link
I would guess this reaction is form something else in it, not from the sodium ascorbate itself.
A lot of supplements hype me

?? Could you explain me the meaning of that expression?
Im the movie dumb and dumber Jim Carey ask a girl where she is from ,she say Austria
He says (Trying to impress her) Well then put and extra shrimp on the barbi (barbeque)
Which is an Australian expression
It's funny
 

prioris

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As said, I don't suffer from sepsis. If I would I would right away get the vitamin C, hydrocortisone and thiamine infusion.



I provided 2 studies which taken together show that 20 g of regular oral vitamin c throughout the day can give higher serum levels than one bolus of 36 g liposomal vitamin c (without the stomach upset the phospholipids alone caused at that dose). You just repeat unfounded claims without even 1 study or source in support. Nor can you mention even one health-benefit you personally experienced from liposomal, as I can from regular vitamin C.

Ok, so lets just agree to disagree.
there's differences of opinion out there. i would listen to what clinicians who use it in their practice are saying about what works for their patients. there needs to be more definitive studies of it that go beyond serum levels.

most people will end up using C for therapeutic purposes will use liposomals because it has advantages over the plain in terms of convenience and side effects.
 
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pamojja

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there's differences of opinion out there. i would listen to what clinicians who use it in their practice are saying about what works for their patients.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but with 'clinicians' you probably mean Dr. Levy, whom is known to say that liposomal vitamin C has 10 times the effectiveness by weight of ordinary Vitamin C in Viral infections in his clinical experience. What you may not be aware of is that Dr. Levy clarified on the vitaminC-forum, that this experience particularly pertained to the anti-viral effect of vitamin C, but not any of the others - like for example the anticancer effect. And we should also mention that Dr. Levy recommends not only liposomal, but along with it high amounts of sodium ascorbate and ascorbyl palmitate all taken together just for maintaining good health. Not just patients.

edit: typos and clarifications
 
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prioris

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Levy wrote

My clinical opinion is that one gram of properly-produced and orally-ingested liposome-encapsulated vitamin C is as or more effective than 5 to 10 grams of vitamin C given intravenously, for an acute viral syndrome. When someone is ill, my advice is still to use as many forms of vitamin C as available, and dosed as highly as is feasible. I discussed this "Multi-C Protocol" in another article.

https://www.peakenergy.com/articles/nh20140411/Exposing-the-truth-about-liposomal-nutrients

this goes back to what i was saying ... there needs to be more definitive research ... he is just trying to cover his basis

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May 22, 2017 | Vitamin C and sepsis: The genie is now out of the bottle
 

pamojja

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Bill Sardi does bring up good points in his blog, but he also sells overpriced supplements and isn't a MD:

Thanks for confirming you meant Dr. Levy when you talked about 'Clinicians'. Here more detail about his multi-C protocol:

The four main arms of the 'multi-C' protocol are:

1. Liposome-encapsulated vitamin C, 1 to 5 grams orally daily (not homemade formulations)

2. Sodium ascorbate daily up to or reaching bowel tolerance (C-flush)

3. Ascorbyl palmitate, 1 to 3 grams orally daily

4. Intravenous vitamin C (sodium ascorbate or buffered ascorbic acid), 25 to 150 grams, depending on body size. Sometimes daily initially, and often several times weekly to monthly depending upon clinical circumstances

The multi-C protocol is especially effective because:

1. The liposomes put vitamin C inside (intracellular) the diseased cells and the circulating immune cells without the consumption of energy.

2. The oral sodium ascorbate continues to saturate the extracellular areas with vitamin C while neutralizing the toxic products of poor digestion, shared by everyone to a greater or lesser degree.

3. The ascorbyl palmitate gets the normally water-soluble vitamin C into fat-soluble areas.

4. The intravenous vitamin C gets temporarily astronomical blood concentrations of vitamin C throughout the body.


Taking up to 20 mg of plain regular vitamin C has too many negative side effects for most people.
Some claims are easy to verify, since they have been studied already long ago.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v05je20.htm

Doses up to 6000 mg of ascorbic acid were given to 29 infants,
93 children of preschool and school age, and 20 adults for more than
1400 days. With the higher doses, toxic manifestations were observed
in five adults and four infants. The signs and symptoms in adults were
nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, flushing of the face, headache, fatigue
and disturbed sleep. The main toxic reactions in the infants were skin
rashes (Widenbauer, 1936).
So all together 142 persons, about 85% of them even still infants and children, which were given 6 g/d of ascorbic acid for about 4 years. Only 9 persons in this long term experiment experienced negative side-effects. These 6.3% who did experience side-effects (which always immediately cease be reducing the dose) hardly qualify for 'most people'. Please don't exaggerate that much. There are enough myths about vitamin C being spread through the internet.

Vitamin C-lipid metabolites: uptake and retention and effect on plasma C-reactive protein and oxidized LDL levels in healthy volunteers.

RESULTS PureWay-C supplementation leads to the highest absolute serum vitamin C levels when compared to AA, CaA and Ester-C. PureWay-C provides a statistically significant greater serum level than calcium ascorbate at 1, 2, 4, and 6 hours post oral supplementation whereas Ester-C shows a less but slightly statistically significant increase at only 1 and 4 hours. Oral supplementation with PureWay-C also led to a greater reduction in plasma C-reactive protein and oxidized LDL levels compared to the other vitamin C formulations.
'Significant greater serum levels' doesn't support your Conclusion:
PureWay= 4.5 X VITC
And LPI in the already posted link comments:

PureWay-C® is composed of vitamin C and lipid metabolites. Two cell culture studies using PureWay-C® have been published by the same investigators (18, 19), but in vivo data are currently lacking. A small study in healthy adults found that serum levels of vitamin C did not differ when a single oral dose (1 gram) of either PureWay-C® or ascorbic acid was administered (20).
Petri-dish studies due to the complexity of the human organism and chemistry are mostly completely misleading.
 

prioris

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How do you measure C Reactive protein and LDL stuff without a human subject but I will see what else I can dig up and do best I can.

As far as side effects a very long time ago, I remember regular vitamin C had negative effect on my restless leg syndrome. It also seemed to give to give me cramps so seemed to deplete my body of minerals.
 

pamojja

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A small study in healthy adults found that serum levels of vitamin C did not differ when a single oral dose (1 gram) of either PureWay-C® or ascorbic acid was administered (20).
Looked at this only study in humans, 10 persons in each arm with 1 gram AA (ascorbic acid), CaA (calcium ascorbate), EC (Ester-C) and PWC (Pureway-C).

serum.png

table.png


Comparing the serum peaks of AA at 2hrs of 1.64 mg/dl and PwC at 2.17 mg/dl, gives indeed 32,3% higher serum levels for about 1 hr.
CRP: after 24 hrs 10.95% difference
OxLDL: after 24 hrs 4.37% difference


Therefore this only and very small study in humans with 32.3% higher serum levels, 10.95% lower CRP and 4.37 lower OxLDL on 1 gram PwC compared to AA doesn't support the 4 times higher bioavailabilty claim.


Comparing PwC at iherb with what I pay for pure AA powder (without any additives), it would cost 10 times! as much for only about 30% higher serum levels for 1 hr.

Of course, if one is getting already stomach upset at such low doses of AA, PwC or liposomal are very viable options. But for indeed higher serum levels, as in the NewSealand study with 20 g/d of AA for those not sensitive - which are most people (93.7% in above toxicity study), it would be an utter waste of money.


PS: The most benign and affordable vitamin C for those sensitive is sodium ascorbate, easily and cheaply made by mixing pure ascorbic acid with half it's weight sodium bicarbonate in a glass of water. Both very cheap to get pure powders.
 
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prioris

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Most people are generally healthy so most can likely take regular vitamin C because they are dealing with less serious and chronic things.

I am not talking about those healthier people but ones that use it for longer term therapeutic purposes and at higher dosages. They will likely have more sensitivities and side effects to many things. This has been my general impression over many decades.

Hickey says that one can take a 500 mg capsule 5 times a day and get high levels. That's a very taxing protocol. Taking something 2 times a day long term is practical. Taking something 3 times is doable but very taxing. More than that and pretty overwhelming. I don't know how many healthy people could stick with this regimen. I don't post to improve health of healthy people but ones with more serious problems.

As far as the percentage difference in CRP etc but a 10% increase in CRP in 24 hours is significant but still very lacking. It would be better if they did it for at least 2-3 months. So many other problems with so many studies but that is all we have. We have to read behind the lines and use our intuition. It's about finding possible things for people to experiment with and not whether there is absolute proof something will work. There are people that will use very strict criteria to evaluate criteria so they end up just saying nothing has been proven to work so don't try it. If I did that, I would not have found a solution to many things. This is not about finding iron clad proof but reading between the lines. I said way way back that to get something definitive, there would have to be larger and more comprehensive studies.

If I am in a life and death situation with sepsis, I'd go for the most expensive vitamin C supplements in the multiprotocol. I wouldn't be effing about trying to save a little money. I'd also throw in p73 wild oregano for good measure since I already have it on hand but most people don't. Each chronically ill person has their situation and options in vitamin C so they can create a possible solution with the various options.
 

pamojja

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As far as the percentage difference in CRP etc but a 10% increase in CRP in 24 hours is significant but still very lacking. It would be better if they did it for at least 2-3 months. So many other problems with so many studies but that is all we have. We have to read behind the lines and use our intuition.
Mind it, both of us wouldn't even have been included in this study, because they excluded most with any health issues. Actually me too (with many chronic diseases) have 2 data-points with oxidized LDL (oxLDL). One test in 2012 after 1 year with a very severe chronic bronchitis and with my highest CRP of 7.2 mg/l: 66 ug/l. The second oxLDL in 2014 in much better health - just having reversed my 60% walking-disability from PAD - at 114 ug/l (range 20-170; optimal <60). Go figure :bang-head:

The only change in my high dose antioxidant regime between these 2 oxLDL tests have been a reduction of Astaxanthin from 9 down to 6 mg/d. Will probably never know for sure, too many co-variables.

Most people are generally healthy so most can likely take regular vitamin C because they are dealing with less serious and chronic things.
Actually the opposite is the case in Robert F. Cathcart experience with thousands of patients on high dose Vitamin C:

https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm

Over the past ten-year period I have treated over 9,000 patients with large doses of vitamin C (Cathcart 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). The effects of this substance when used in adequate amounts markedly alters the course of many diseases. Stressful conditions of any kind greatly increase utilization of vitamin C. Ascorbate excreted in the urine drops markedly with stresses of any magnitude unless vitamin C is provided in large amounts. However, a more convenient and clinically useful measure of ascorbate need and presumably utilization is the BOWEL TOLERANCE. The amount of ascorbic acid which can be taken orally without causing diarrhea when a person is ill sometimes is over ten times the amount he would tolerate if well. This increased bowel tolerance phenomenon serves not only to indicate the amount which should be taken but indicates the unsuspected and astonishing magnitude of the potential use that the body has for ascorbate under stressful conditions.
Emphasis added by me. You really should take the effort and read this educating article in toto.

If I am in a life and death situation with sepsis, I'd go for the most expensive vitamin C supplements in the multiprotocol. I wouldn't be effing about trying to save a little money.
Again, as already said, with deathly sepsis I wouldn't be in experimental mode. I would follow the exact protocol studied by Dr. Paul Marik, with IV Hydrocortisone, Vitamin C, and Thiamine. See http://journal.chestnet.org/article/S0012-3692(16)62564-3/fulltext