Vitamin C liposomal or not

prioris

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On the subject of liposomal C
It hypes me
I do much better on the "obsolete" form
i think because hardly any is getting into your system (only 3%). you just urinate it out.

by hype you mean it is a stimulant ... so like guarana or coffee ... you saying it makes you feel more wide awake ... i assume this isn't anxiety your talking about which is a negative stimulant
 
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prioris

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That's highly hypothetical. Practically with 23 g/d of ascorbic acid and 100 mg/d of B2 for the last nine years in average my total testosterone has been 390 ng/dl (300-1000 normal range), free testosterone 7.2 pg/ml (8.7-54.7 normal range) and Estradiol 28 pg/ml (12-34 range). Wished it would.
i'm not sure what my testosterone level is but i did have prostate pain and it went away with 40mg+ elemental zinc (zinc orotate form). zinc also helps regenerate thymus gland also.
 

pamojja

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Been taking 370 mcg K2-mk7 and 12 mg of K2-mk4 daily during that same time period.

Regular vitamin C doesn't absorb well nor into cells well - maybe 3% at most plus can be many side effects.
Not my experience, got many benefits from high dose vitamin C. There is one study which actually measured serum levels from high dose vitamin C, and showed levels only thought possible with IV:

Journal of the New Zealand Medical Association, 23-August-2002, Vol 115 No 1160

Glycohaemoglobin and ascorbic acid

Copplestone et al1 (http://www.nzma.org....al/115-1157/25/) identified misleading glycohaemoglobin (GHb) results due to a haemoglobin variant (Hb D Punjab) and listed a number of other possible causes for such false results (ie, haemolytic anaemia, uraemia, lead poisoning, alcoholism, high-dose salicylates and hereditary persistence of foetal haemoglobin).

We have observed a significant "false" lowering of GHb in animals and humans supplementing ascorbic acid (AA) at multigram levels. Mice receiving ~7.5 mg/d (equivalent to > 10 g/day in a 70 kg human) exhibited no decrease in plasma glucose, but a 23% reduction in GHb.2 In humans, supplementation of AA for several months did not lower fasting plasma glucose.3,4 We studied 139 consecutive consenting non-diabetic patients in an oncology clinic. The patients had been encouraged as part of their treatment to supplement AA. Self-reported daily intake varied from 0 to 20 g/day. The plasma AA levels ranged from 11.4 to 517 µmol/L and correlated well with the reported intake. Regression analysis of their GHb and plasma AA values showed a statistically significant inverse association (eg, each 30 µmol/L increase in plasma AA concentration resulted in a decrease of 0.1 in GHb).

A 1 g oral dose of AA can raise plasma AA to 130 µmol/L within an hour and such doses at intervals of about two hours throughout the day can maintain ~230 µmol AA/L.5 Similar levels could also be achieved by use of sustained-release AA tablets. This AA concentration would induce an approximate 0.7 depression in GHb. The GHb assay used in our study, affinity chromatography, is not affected by the presence of AA.3 Thus, unlike the case with Hb D Punjab, our results were not caused by analytical method artifact. More likely, the decreased GHb associated with AA supplementation appears related to an in vivo inhibition of glycation by the elevated plasma AA levels, and not a decrease in average plasma glucose.3 If this is true, the effect has implications not only for interpretation of GHb but also for human ageing, in which glycation of proteins plays a prominent role in age-related degenerative changes.

A misleading GHb lowering of the magnitude we observed can be clinically significant. Current recommendations for diabetics suggest that GHb be maintained at 7, a level that is associated with acceptable control and decreased risk of complications; when GHb exceeds 8, re-evaluation of treatment is necessary.6 Moreover, relatively small increases in average blood sugar (ie, GHb) can accompany adverse reproductive effects. A difference in mean maternal GHb of 0.8 was found for women giving birth to infants without or with congenital malformations.7 In either of these circumstances, an underestimation of GHb could obscure the need for more aggressive intervention.

Vitamin usage is common in New Zealand and after multivitamins, AA is the most often consumed supplement.8 Moreover, diabetics are encouraged to supplement antioxidants, including AA. Thus, it seems prudent for primary care health providers to inquire regarding the AA intake of patients, especially diabetics, when using GHb for diagnosis or treatment monitoring.
Emphasis added by me.
 

prioris

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Taking up to 20 mg of plain regular vitamin C has too many negative side effects for most people. On average they will absorb 3% of the vitamin C. That is why high dose regular vitamin C could never achieve widespread use. ` this is why low dosages are generally used for plain vitamin C.

if i have sepsis and dying - oral liposomal vitamin C is a no brainer ... couldn't achieve the same thing with regular vitamin C except thru high dose intravenous and even the intravenous is inferior because liposomal absorbs better into the cells and minimal side effects.
 

pamojja

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Taking up to 20 mg of plain regular vitamin C has too many negative side effects for most people. On average they will absorb 3% of the vitamin C.
Any reference for the claim 3% would absorb only? Obviously those in above study didn't experience negative side-effects, nor do I with more than 20 g/d.

..and even the intravenous is inferior because liposomal absorbs better into the cells and minimal side effects.
Any reference for that hypothesis that liposomal would absorb better than IV?
 

gettinbetter

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think because hardly any is getting into your system (only 3%). you just urinate it out.

by hype you mean it is a stimulant ... so like guarana or coffee ... you saying it makes you feel more wide awake ... i assume this isn't anxiety your talking about which is a negative stimulant
Thanks
If it is just going through my system then why would it hype me?
It has to actually be absorbed and enter the chemical processes of the body to hype right?

When I say hype the same thing that happens with caffeine in this case it lasted about 24 hours

Livon labs was the brand
 

prioris

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hype in the caffeine sense can be positive kind of hype. i could read that to mean your body is getting more healthy so liposomal may actually be better. it's murky area since i'm not you. Liposomals will stay in blood way longer.

I've taken guarana many decades ago which is the most intense type coffee stimulant. i wasn't aware of what it did when i took it. It kept me wide awake and alert for 3 days and felt productive.
 

gettinbetter

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hype in the caffeine sense can be positive kind of hype. i could read that to mean your body is getting more healthy so liposomal may actually be better. it's murky area since i'm not you. Liposomals will stay in blood way longer.
Hype is not natural energy for me it's jittery can't relax energy
If you can't go to sleep 16 hours after taking it that is not good

livon labs Liposomal vit c does not work for me
 

prioris

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I don't remember where I got that 3% figure but I think it was for a person taking 30 grams a day.

For people wanting true high dose vitamin C therapy, liposomals are the only practical way to go.

People taking lower end amounts of C, I wouldn't go over 1000 mg of plain C since after a certain point, the body will just get rid of it. Also being water soluble, it won't last as long in the body. Liposomals lasted well over 6 hours but i am taking that off the ester and pureway C studies.

1000 mg liposomal = roughly 8000g to 15,000 mg plain vitamin C

liposomal C has a long life time in blood .... plain vitamin C being water soluble has short life time so one would need at least i think 3 doses in same time to maintain blood serum levels

So if you need 60,000 mg of C to fight off something, liposomals are a no brainer.

6 units of liposomal or 60 units of plain (plus plain has to be taken more

If someone wants a little vitamin c in their body and that's all, plain will do but i'm talking true therapeutic levels.

As far as side effects ... low doses are one thing but as the dose and duration increases more and more people will get side effects ... you see this on a lot of reviews on vitamin C

for true therapeutic vitamin C, liposomal C obsoletes plain C.
 

prioris

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Hype is not natural energy for me it's jittery can't relax energy
If you can't go to sleep 16 hours after taking it that is not good

livon labs Liposomal vit c does not work for me
jittery ... that is more clarification
that seems to be more a methylation problem
have you tried lithium orotate
 

pamojja

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Liposomals will stay in blood way longer.
The following is the only case study to my knowledge which compared liposomal against ordinary ascorbic acid. Quite strange, in that they compared merely 5 gram of regular oral ascorbic acid to 20g or 36g liposomal. Resulting plasma levels of equal oral doses (5g) showed almost identical!

Pharmacokinetics of oral vitamin C

STEPHEN HICKEY, HILARY J. ROBERTS, & NICHOLAS J. MILLER

"Figure 1 shows the response of the female subject to single 5 g doses of liposomal and
standard formulation vitamin C; both produced similar response curves. These results are
comparable in form and magnitude to those expected for oral vitamin C in previously
depleted subjects. However, peak values exceeded 220 mM L which has been reported as
the maximum value attainable with repeated oral doses of 3 g six times daily [8]. The
subjects were experienced users of high-dose vitamin C and neither suffered any
gastrointestinal effects at this dose level.5 "
liposomal5.png

Increasing the dose of liposomal vitamin C to 20g gave a broader response, with
a delayed maximum, as shown in Figure 2. In this graph, the 20g liposomal dose is
compared with a 5g standard dose (male subject). With a 20g intake, the peak plasma
level was delayed and the response was broader, indicating a greater absorption of
vitamin C. The 5g data set shows a marked outlier (peak): this is attributed to the fact
that one of the (5g) blood samples was difficult to extract, with inflammation at the
puncture site, providing only a small sample. The subject experienced no bowel
tolerance effects at either of these intakes.
liposomal35.png

Figure 3 shows plasma levels following a 36g dose of liposomal vitamin C, for
both subjects. This resulted in peak plasma levels, in the region of 400 µM/L. A 95%
interfractile range (34-114), which contains 95% of the distribution with a mean of 74
corresponds to a calculated standard deviation of 17.4. We note that, under these
conditions, an outlier measurement of 400 µM/L would correspond to a deviation of
10.3 σ with a theoretical p value of 1.6x10 -13 (i.e. P<0.0000000000001). With this high
dose, both subjects exceeded their bowel tolerance, leading to diarrhoea. This
intolerance presumably arose from the high intake of phospholipid, without food
buffering, in fasting individuals. However, our observations using hourly doses suggest
that daily intakes of this magnitude are tolerable without bowel effects, as long as the
dose is spread throughout the day.
liposomal20.png

36 grams!!! of Liposomal vitamin C didn't even reach the 517 µmol/L serum levels of ordinary 20g of oral ascorbic acid spread out through the day, as in the previous study!


Buyer beware!
 

prioris

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That's a really strange study using so much liposomal.It's kind of misleading too. I think his intent was trying to get over the 500 barrier.

I believe what Hickman found was that liposomals can go over 400 but not 500. Little over 500 can only be gotten to with repeated short term doses of ascorbic acid. Taking such voluminous amounts of plain C for therapeutic purposes has too many drawbacks. One could take the liposomals to get to over 400 then top it off with some plain C to get to 500 but that is just an idea.

i look at the pureway c and ester c studies which (not liposomals) i believe use metabolites that allows liver to process them as proof of superiority over plain C. Once it gets to the serum, how well does it absorb into the cells is important too. Plain C doesn't fair well in this respect.

for me, the anecdotal ways heavily too.
I would refer people someone like Dr. Thomas E. Levy and others who see it in their practices.

I wish an independent person would do a quick study of the different brands of liposomals (also non liposomals) and how much absorbed and how long they stay in blood serum just to compare products.
 
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pamojja

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I wouldn't go over 1000 mg of plain C
Taking such voluminous amounts of plain C for therapeutic purposes has too many drawbacks.
How do you know if you never took more than 1 gram?

As I wrote already elsewhere about the benefits I experienced from oral high dose ascorbic acid:

Vitamin C - after a PAD diagnosis almost 9 years ago, together with lysine and all other nutrients recommended by Linus Pauling - pain-free walking distance improved from mere 3-400 meters up to 2 hours. But only once I exceeded the in his view minimal therapeutic dose of 6 g/d each. Side-benefits: a since 2 years persistent skin-rush cleared up, hay-fever symptoms recurring every spring since 15 years got alleviated. HbA1c stayed disproportionally low, compared to higher blood glucose. A cystitis circumscripta of the bladder disappeared.
Only negative side-effect in my case is flatulence well above my daily intake of 23 g/d approaching bowel tolerance at 50g (https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm). So basically no drawbacks at all.
 

prioris

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How do you know if you never took more than 1 gram?

As I wrote already elsewhere about the benefits I experienced from oral high dose ascorbic acid:
Only negative side-effect in my case is flatulence well above my daily intake of 23 g/d approaching bowel tolerance at 50g (https://vitamincfoundation.org/www.orthomed.com/titrate.htm). So basically no drawbacks at all.
I've taken 10-20 grams but with negative side effects. That's why I wouldn't touch vitamin C except in low doses. Same happens to many other people. I can take 20 grams of ester C or Pureway C with no problem. With liposomals, all I need is 2 grams to get same dosage.

Paulus Lining 6 gram dosage is for plaque removal. The Linus Pauling website or someone associated with it recommends Pureway C. Another liposomal product I have only requires 5/8 tsp for equivalent 6 grams. Some people tolerate plain vitamin C better than others. That bowel tolerance test is essentially saying keep upping the amount until you experience side effects.

For decades, I've seen countless posts of people on the internet who will say I take e.g. 15 grams plain C and it works for me and you should do it too. They never informed people about all the other forms of vitamin C nor acknowledged the side effects. The side effects of plain vitamin C were swept under the rug. It didn't truly inform people. One needs to give a larger perspective on vitamin C otherwise it will cause vitamin C therapy to fail in people or more likely give up using it.

The newer vitamin C forms have made vitamin C more accessible. Since hospitals won't administer intravenous vitamin C for people with sepsis for many reasons including legal, it allows a person to take responsibility for their health without doctor permission, The survival of people with sepsis in hospital is i think 14% or less. With intravenous plain C, it is 87% or around there. One can replace intravenous with oral liposomal C and probably more effective.
 

pamojja

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I've taken 10-20 grams but with negative side effects.
What have been your negative side-effects?

I can take 20 grams of ester C or Pureway C with no problem.
Please be aware that some acorbates come with high amounts of minerals. For example 20 g calcium ascorbate would give you 2g of calcium. Which I would avoid. See here for bio-availability and drawbacks from different forms; http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/vitamins/vitamin-C/supplemental-forms

They never informed people about all the other forms of vitamin C nor acknowledged the side effects. The side effects of plain vitamin C were swept under the rug.
Strange accusation. I thought it common knowledge that different people can only tolerate different amount before intestinal discomfort and then liquid stuhl starts. But nothing which wouldn't cease by reducing the next vitamin C dose again. That for some can be as low as 0.5 and as high as 100 grams. It is very individual and can change over time. But maybe it's only me who fact-checks before embarking on any supplement? And then carefully with the lowest possible dose in the beginning to avoid always possible individual adverse reactions.

The survival of people with sepsis in hospital is i think 14% or less. With intravenous plain C, it is 87% or around there.
I don't have sepsis and I don't see a good reason why I should pay 50 times more per gram for liposomal, if it doesn't even reach the serum levels possible with regular.

for me, the anecdotal ways heavily too.
Would you like to elaborate your health benefits with liposomal, as I did with regular high dose ascorbic acid?
 
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prioris

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As far as side effects, it's been a long while so don't remember all of them. Created at least stomach problems as I remember.

I agree about the calcium ascorbate. That's the drawback of Ester C so wouldn't take it except for short time. Pureway C doesn't have calcium.

That oregon info page is mixed in terms of providing reliable info. very skimpy info but i like how it tries to cover all forms. many info sources don;t do that

Lot articles and people posting comments pushing the ... take huge doses of plain vitamin C for this or take some vitamin C ... very rarely if ever talked about the side effects ... this is just the reality of so many articles and posts on internet hence they didn't educate people in vitamin C ... nothing to do with accusation ... it's just my impression of so much vitamin C info ... you may know, i may know, people in this forum may know but that doesn't mean most everyone else knows

as far as sepsis, i'd research that if i were you. were talking life or death. if you or a loved one comes down with sepsis, oral plain vitamin C ain't working. it's either intravenous or oral liposomal.

https://naturallyhealthynews.com/newsletter/2017/week-21-2017-sepsis

The number one reason why people take other forms of vit C is due to side effects of plain C. The next reason is that one can achieve much higher blood levels with one tenth the amount ...

https://www.naturalnews.com/034591_vitamin_C_mega-dose_healing.html

Here are my notes on strength from studies I came across as far as serum levels
VITC = Regular Vitamin C 1000mg
Ester C = 4 X VITC = 4000 mg VITC
PureWay= 4.5 X VITC
Lyco Spheric = 10-15 X VITC

>A small study in healthy adults found that serum levels of vitamin C did not differ when a single oral dose (1 gram) of either PureWay-C® or ascorbic acid was administered

it is not providing people the full story

but how long did the adults retain their serum levels for ... lie by omission
... how effective did each absorb into the cells
... why didn't it try higher doses and compare them
these are other important factors

this ain't a debate. people can do their own research and decide.



it would be nice to have more definitive and larger scale studies comparing the different forms

if whatever form and dose your taking works for you, that's fine. i'm just letting people know that they have other option if one form of vitamin C doesn't work for them. if they have serious sepsis, they better think twice before reaching for just plain vit C.
 
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pamojja

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As said, I don't suffer from sepsis. If I would I would right away get the vitamin C, hydrocortisone and thiamine infusion.

Here are my notes on strength from studies I came across as far as serum levels
VITC = Regular Vitamin C 1000mg
Ester C = 4 X VITC = 4000 mg VITC
PureWay= 4.5 X VITC
Lyco Spheric = 10-15 X VITC
I provided 2 studies which taken together show that 20 g of regular oral vitamin c throughout the day can give higher serum levels than one bolus of 36 g liposomal vitamin c (without the stomach upset the phospholipids alone caused at that dose). You just repeat unfounded claims without even 1 study or source in support. Nor can you mention even one health-benefit you personally experienced from liposomal, as I can from regular vitamin C.

Ok, so lets just agree to disagree.