video: Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency, Insulin Resistance & Diabetes

[linusbert]

i found it quite interesting.
its explaining thiamine and different pathways related to glucose metabolism especially in context of diabetes.

 

[Jo86]

Guys, please have a look at this video, at least the first 10-15min:

Here's how it goes basically:

you're probably not B1 deficient in a purely diet-oriented sense (you're getting enough from food), and you're probably fine if your standard B1 levels were checked by a doctor. HOWEVER: B1 happens to be the co-factor (the main helper) for an enzyme (a worker of the body) that's needed for energy production from your glucose. Chronic disease, imbalance, exposure to chemicals etc, whatever, can make your enzyme lose its affinity for the co-factor. In other words the worker is no longer friends with B1 as much. Result is the worker can't work properly, to help you make glucose into energy in the mitochondria (the powerhouse of the cell, all over your body).

And megadosing on B1 (standard recommendation is 0.1 mg, but here by mega-dosing, you could take up to 1500 mg, even more) makes those broken enzymes work again, so they can get back to making glucose into energy.

An experiment is brought up here: rats with traumatic brain injury had low ATP (so energy) production and that special mitochondrial enzyme I mentioned was broken. Also brain inflammation. Then, another group of rats, pre-trauma, were given mega-doses of B1, and THEN had the brain injury: and they noticed that special enzyme was fine, no reduction of ATP production in the cells. And no brain inflammation.

 

[JES]

Thiamine has been found helpful with regards to some other diseases, but for ME/CFS in specific there seems to be little evidence. I have seen a few limited case studies and one poll where some people have improved on thiamine, but I haven't seen any recovery stories on ME/CFS forums or social media groups from thiamine usage. For a new treatment to get me excited these days, I usually would like to see at least major improvement where a patient bumps up one or several levels on the ME/CFS illness scale (ref) and from people who have been sick for quite a while.

It could be that there are further upstream/downstream pathways that are dysregulated in ME/CFS that do not depend on thiamine. Then you could perhaps still achieve some level of improvement with thiamine, but if other pathways remain broken, it would be limited. A bit like exchanging your car's fuel for a better quality one, but if your car is running out of oil instead, your engine won't do much better.

 

[Mary]

For a new treatment to get me excited these days, I usually would like to see at least major improvement where a patient bumps up one or several levels on the ME/CFS illness scale (ref) and from people who have been sick for quite a while.

I had been sick for some 17 years before trialing thiamine- and it gave me an almost immediate very noticeable boost in energy - within a day or 2 at the very most. And I would say the bump in energy would equal one level on the CFS illness scale. I wanted to run around my home and jump on my mini-trampoline (I think I did)- I can't remember the last time prior to then that I had had that kind of energy, and then a day or so later was hit by severe fatigue which later research and experimenting revealed to be hypophosphatemia related to B1 and refeeding syndrome.

I'm well aware that refeeding syndrome is only supposed to hit people who are severely malnourished, and my experience with thiamine as well as methylfolate (caused hypokalemia) makes me think we are malnourished, despite decent diet and supplements. I have to keep taking megadoses of certain vitamins and supplements - my deficiencies never get remedied but as long as I keep supplementing, I do better than without.

So I think thiamine is definitely worth a trial for persons with ME/CFS - and it's very cheap! I take plain old B1. There are other forms of thiamine which some do better with. But overall it's cheap, readily available, downside is negligible I think, though one should be aware of potential for hypophosphatemia or perhaps other sequelae of refeeding syndrome. I don't want to go back to how I was pre-thiamine.

 

[linusbert]

I had been sick for some 17 years before trialing thiamine- and it gave me an almost immediate very noticeable boost in energy - within a day or 2 at the very most. And I would say the bump in energy would equal one level on the CFS illness scale. I wanted to run around my home and jump on my mini-trampoline (I think I did)- I can't remember the last time prior to then that I had had that kind of energy, and then a day or so later was hit by severe fatigue which later research and experimenting revealed to be hypophosphatemia related to B1 and refeeding syndrome.

I'm well aware that refeeding syndrome is only supposed to hit people who are severely malnourished, and my experience with thiamine as well as methylfolate (caused hypokalemia) makes me think we are malnourished, despite decent diet and supplements. I have to keep taking megadoses of certain vitamins and supplements - my deficiencies never get remedied but as long as I keep supplementing, I do better than without.

So I think thiamine is definitely worth a trial for persons with ME/CFS - and it's very cheap! I take plain old B1. There are other forms of thiamine which some do better with. But overall it's cheap, readily available, downside is negligible I think, though one should be aware of potential for hypophosphatemia or perhaps other sequelae of refeeding syndrome. I don't want to go back to how I was pre-thiamine.

very glad to read such a story!
thiamine always kicks my butt, increased cramping - my main symptom.
the only screw i didnt screw yet was the phosphat, despite having had real hypophosphataemie in the past, now its borderline in the green. maybe i should get some Reducto and supplement phosphat?

how did you fix phosphat?

 

[Mary]

@linusbert - I first discovered the problem was low phosphate by drinking several glasses of kefir. My energy started to come back within a couple of hours of drinking the kefir. I had landed on hypophosphatemia as a possible culprit because potassium did nothing for post-thiamine fatigue.

Swansons used to carry a monosodium phosphate supplement but they stopped it a few years ago, and finally I found a replacement, at hargraves online - I can't put a link here because I'm using my phone. It's a box of little packets, each of which has sodium, potassium and phosphorus, and the phosphorus content is about 25% of the RDA. I take the phosphorus as needed, I don't usually need it everyday though some days I need three or four packets. I use muscle testing to determine how much I need and it's worked well for me.

When I get proper internet service back, hopefully today, I can post a link

 

[Mary]

A couple of symptoms I get when my phosphorus is low are difficulty swallowing pills, they start to get stuck in my throat and blurry or double vision, especially at night. I read that low phosphorus affects the small muscles first, like in the throat or the eye, and the severe fatigue probably would not hit until my levels got lower

 

[Andryr]

I take plain old B1

How much now? And how much did you take when you just started B1?

 

[linusbert]

A couple of symptoms I get when my phosphorus is low are difficulty swallowing pills, they start to get stuck in my throat and blurry or double vision, especially at night. I read that low phosphorus affects the small muscles first, like in the throat or the eye, and the severe fatigue probably would not hit until my levels got lower

the small muscles , thats interesting, my ear muscles and ear trumpet and neck go bonkers since a few days. i also had a 100k vitamin D 2 weeks ago.. i fear that made this worse.
also i had episodes of blurry vision at night a few weeks before, it really was annoying.
i actually hoped D would bring back up Calcium AND phosphat.. but probably not enough?

in germany we got Reducto, its got potassium(kalium)hydrogenphosphat, natriumonohydrogenphosphat.

 

[Consul]

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/12/13/1646

Just saw this, thiamine has antimicrobial and anti inflammatory properties.

 

[Mary]

How much now? And how much did you take when you just started B1?

I started with 100 mg. And I found some old notes of mine which said that taking more got me too jittery or something similar. But I gradually worked my way up and now I take 400 mg a day, 200 mg with breakfast and 200 mg with lunch.

I have read about people taking much higher doses though I'm not recommending that. It is very powerful, and 100 mg might be too much for someone to start with.

 

[Mary]

@linusbert - 100,000 vitamin D2 sounds like a lot! Is that IU?

In any event, I don't know how vitamin D2 affects phosphorus levels.

you might want to try what I did, take some thiamine. If the cramping (or other symptoms) starts, drink a lot of kefir (or other dairy product) which is high in phosphorus and see if that helps and then decide where to go from there - whether you think you need reducto or something else for phosphorus.

 

[linusbert]

@linusbert - 100,000 vitamin D2 sounds like a lot! Is that IU?

In any event, I don't know how vitamin D2 affects phosphorus levels.

you might want to try what I did, take some thiamine. If the cramping (or other symptoms) starts, drink a lot of kefir (or other dairy product) which is high in phosphorus and see if that helps and then decide where to go from there - whether you think you need reducto or something else for phosphorus.

IU, but only for a week, usually like 40k per week. thats actually not thaaat much... but maybe for me it was.

vitamin D increases calcium AND pohsphorus absorption. it regulates both calcium and phosphat levels in blood.

i actually eat 100g cheese a day, i hoped that would be enough phosphorus.

 

[Jo86]

I started with 100 mg. And I found some old notes of mine which said that taking more got me too jittery or something similar. But I gradually worked my way up and now I take 400 mg a day, 200 mg with breakfast and 200 mg with lunch.

I have read about people taking much higher doses though I'm not recommending that. It is very powerful, and 100 mg might be too much for someone to start with.

Elliot Overton (the young englishman in the video up there) says there's no toxicity with B1 anyways, as it gets peed out when in excess. Or at very least, no toxicity for the megadosing he's bringing up of 1000-2000 mg.

He also mentions in another video that some ppl have a hard time starting the B1 protocol, and therefor need to start slow and build up gradually with higher quantities every week. Others have no issue and can go straight to the full 1000 mg quantities right off the bat and feel benefits rather quickly (probably because now with B1 megadosing, glucose is better processed into energy, thanks to the B1-dependant enzymes for energy production).