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Video Dr. Byron Hyde - Enterovirus theory?

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
There is a drug called Nitazoxanide that appears to trigger interferon production in infected cells at the standard dose. (250mg four times a day).

That's interesting.

Coincidently I tried nitazoxanide at 500 mg twice daily as part of an anti-Blastocystis hominis parasite protocol for a few weeks, just in case it might have helped my IBS-D. I did not notice much.
 
Messages
29
That's interesting.

Coincidently I tried nitazoxanide at 500 mg twice daily as part of an anti-Blastocystis hominis parasite protocol for a few weeks, just in case it might have helped my IBS-D. I did not notice much.

I found Nitazoxanide very helpful, however the effects wore off after a few weeks. 500mg twice day.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
for anyone thinking of ordering the interferon suppositories, this company advised they would not take orders until the postage times are back to normal. so they look to be reliable.

wmmedicalsupply.com
 
Messages
29
for anyone thinking of ordering the interferon suppositories, this company advised they would not take orders until the postage times are back to normal. so they look to be reliable.

wmmedicalsupply.com

Yes. Times to Australia from Russia are 90 to 150 days. And express usually gets returned to sender. Thank you covid19😞
 
Messages
56
That's interesting.

Coincidently I tried nitazoxanide at 500 mg twice daily as part of an anti-Blastocystis hominis parasite protocol for a few weeks, just in case it might have helped my IBS-D. I did not notice much.

Hello Hip. Is your IBS accompanied with anxiety? May having IBS be an indication that my cfs is enterovirus related?
By the way did you try the interferon therapy again?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Hello Hip. Is your IBS accompanied with anxiety? May having IBS be an indication that my cfs is enterovirus related?
By the way did you try the interferon therapy again?

My IBS predates my ME/CFS by about 8 years. When I first developed severe IBS-D, it resulted in significant anxiety symptoms. My ME/CFS started much later, as a result of a coxsackievirus B4 infection.

I am not aware of any link between ME/CFS patients having IBS, and having enterovirus-associated ME/CFS, but that might be the subject of an interesting PR poll. I will look into starting such a poll.

In theory there could be a link, since enterovirus tends to live in the gut, whereas EBV only very rarely causes gut issues. So if you have EBV-associated ME/CFS, you would not expect to find the virus in the stomach.



I did do some more short term tests on low-dose oral interferon, but not interferon suppositories. Dr Chia found that interferon does not work for his CVB4 ME/CFS patients, so I am the wrong sort of patient to test interferon suppositories.

But for those with ME/CFS linked to other coxsackievirus B serotypes, interferon suppositories may be a very interesting experiment.

A course of injected interferon can put enterovirus patients into near remission, but unfortunately the virus and the ME/CFS tend to return, typically 4 to 12 months after the end of the course of interferon. So it seems like interferon therapy greatly reduces viral loads, but does not fully eliminate the virus. So I am guessing the virus eventually grows back.

Thus if you did a course of injected interferon to put yourself into remission, and then afterwards took interferon suppositories each day as a maintenance treatment to prevent the virus from growing back, you may be able to keep yourself in remission.

This is just an idea I had, I don't think anyone has tried it, but potentially it might be a ticket back to health for some enterovirus ME/CFS patients.
 
Messages
56
My IBS predates my ME/CFS by about 8 years. When I first developed severe IBS-D, it resulted in significant anxiety symptoms. My ME/CFS started much later, as a result of a coxsackievirus B4 infection.

I am not aware of any link between ME/CFS patients having IBS, and having enterovirus-associated ME/CFS, but that might be the subject of an interesting PR poll. I will look into starting such a poll.

In theory there could be a link, since enterovirus tends to live in the gut, whereas EBV only very rarely causes gut issues. So if you have EBV-associated ME/CFS, you would not expect to find the virus in the stomach.



I did do some more short term tests on low-dose oral interferon, but not interferon suppositories. Dr Chia found that interferon does not work for his CVB4 ME/CFS patients, so I am the wrong sort of patient to test interferon suppositories.

But for those with ME/CFS linked to other coxsackievirus B serotypes, interferon suppositories may be a very interesting experiment.

A course of injected interferon can put enterovirus patients into near remission, but unfortunately the virus and the ME/CFS tend to return, typically 4 to 12 months after the end of the course of interferon. So it seems like interferon therapy greatly reduces viral loads, but does not fully eliminate the virus. So I am guessing the virus eventually grows back.

Thus if you did a course of injected interferon to put yourself into remission, and then afterwards took interferon suppositories each day as a maintenance treatment to prevent the virus from growing back, you may be able to keep yourself in remission.

This is just an idea I had, I don't think anyone has tried it, but potentially it might be a ticket back to health for some enterovirus ME/CFS patients.

Yeah my ibs with anxiety/depression preceded cfs by 3 years actually.. how do you know your cfs is caused by CVB4? you found out from ab neutralization test? if yes, is cvb4 the only one that shows positive? no other enteroviruses present?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Yeah my ibs with anxiety/depression preceded cfs by 3 years actually.. how do you know your cfs is caused by CVB4? you found out from ab neutralization test? if yes, is cvb4 the only one that shows positive? no other enteroviruses present?

I had suspicions I caught CVB because of the initial acute symptoms I experienced (like herpangina-like sore throat, which is mainly due to coxsackievirus A or B), the short incubation period (CVB incubation period is 3 to 5 days), the symptoms my virus caused in others who caught it from me.

And there are only a few viruses linked to ME/CFS, mainly CVB, echovirus, EBV, HHV-6 and cytomegalovirus, parvovirus B19, so it was likely going to be one of those.

I only managed to find CVB antibody test via the neutralization method 13 years after I caught my virus, and this showed very high antibody titers to CVB4. These are my results:

CVB1 — negative
CVB2 — 1:128
CVB3 — negative
CVB4 — 1:1024
CVB5 — 1:8
CVB6 — negative
 

sometexan84

Senior Member
Messages
1,241
Dr Chia found that interferon does not work for his CVB4 ME/CFS patients, so I am the wrong sort of patient to test interferon suppositories.
I think it's important to note which interferon you're referring to these days... as opposed to saying "interferon" (in general) does or does not work.

Remember, Chia mostly used Type 1 interferon. And you know how we've talked about enterovirus in the gut, mainly the intestinal barrier? Well there's a section in the barrier called the lamina propria.

If there are immune cells infected by persistent enterovirus in the GI tract, it will be in the lamina propria, where there are Natural Killer T Cells (NKT), which CVB4 has tropism for.

These NKT cells in the lamina propria have largely Type II and Type III receptors (gamma and lambda). So the Type I interferon used by Chia would be a lot more ineffective against CVB4 infection here.

So I don't think it's fair to say interferon doesn't work against CVB4, even though it is actually something Dr Chia said. There wasn't as much info out there on the different types of Interferons when he did these studies and made those comments.

I am not aware of any link between ME/CFS patients having IBS, and having enterovirus-associated ME/CFS, but that might be the subject of an interesting PR poll. I will look into starting such a poll.
Speaking of intestinal NKT cells... there are multiple articles that actually go over the mucosal immune response in the gut, dysregulated microbiota, and its relationship to inflammatory bowel disease (IBD).

https://www.nature.com/articles/mi200999
"Aberrant interactions between the mucosal immune cells and the microbiota have been implicated in the pathogenesis of inflammatory disorders, such as inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)"

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/febs.15238
"dysregulated immune system–microbiota crosstalk can favour the development of chronic inflammatory diseases, as it is the case for inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)"

There's also many many articles out there that go over the relationship between IBD and ME/CFS/LC in general. I sort of thought this was already generally accepted.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
So I don't think it's fair to say interferon doesn't work against CVB4, even though it is actually something Dr Chia said. There wasn't as much info out there on the different types of Interferons when he did these studies and made those comments.

Dr Chia has used several types of interferon on his ME/CFS patients: interferon alpha, beta and delta (as you know, these are type I interferons), as well as interferon gamma (type II interferon), typically in combination. See about half way down on this article.

Though as far as I am aware, he only started using interferon beta more recently, and that's the interferon he tends to use now, when he does treat ME/CFS patients with interferon. So you may be right, that Dr Chia's comments might only apply to his older experiments on alpha, gamma and delta, and maybe not to beta.


I just now remembered that member RYO was diagnosed with CVB4 by Dr Chia (ref: here), and he tried interferon beta (Betaseron), and said:
my personal 6 month trials with Betaseron resulted in modest improvements. However, the improvements lasted 6-8 months. I

So that does not sound like the often spectacular improvements (eg bedbound to back to work) that interferon can often result in. But we would need to test beta interferon on several patients with CVB4 in order to see any trend.



Interferon lambda is the new kid on the block, but until this hits the market, we are not going to be able to test it, unless someone performs a clinical trial for ME/CFS (but by your orphan drug politics thread, that is not likely to happen).
 

Nuno

Senior Member
Messages
112
Which ways do we have to naturally increase Interferon production?

I've heard about the bacteria in the GI part from an interesting post made by @sometexan84 , so which approaches do we know so far that would work in this way?

I've also read about inducing a fever and hot/cold therapy, some study which I cant recall right now had put the subjects under high temperatures and evaluated the interferon production over time. It concluded that at 39 celsius the production was noticeable higher. Does anyone know anything more about this approach?

Lastly, assuming theres some EV on a non cytolytic state, would the Interferons be able to recognize this as a treat? This is just me wondering
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Lastly, assuming theres some EV on a non cytolytic state, would the Interferons be able to recognize this as a treat? This is just me wondering

There is a theory that non-cytolytic enterovirus has become resistant to interferon, due to the tiny deletions that have taken place in the RNA viral genome of non-cytolytic enterovirus (when enterovirus converts from its normal acute form into the chronic persistent non-cytolytic form, it does this by shedding off a tiny part of its RNA genome):
Another theory suggested by Lévêque et al[45] is that the deletions found in the non-cytolytic enterovirus genome might facilitate immune evasion: alphaviruses are known to utilize such deletions within their genome to evade the type 1 interferon-induced immune response, and non-cytolytic enterovirus has deletions in exactly the same area of the genome as alphavirus.

The deletions in the alphavirus genome prevent interferon-induced Ifit1 immune proteins from binding to and disabling alphavirus RNA.[46] If the genomic mutations of non-cytolytic enterovirus also confer the same immune resistance, that may help explain how this non-cytolytic virus evades immune clearance.

Basically, type I interferons destroy viral RNA inside a cell by sticking some Ifit1 proteins to this RNA. So interferon causes the production of Ifit1, and then Ifit1 then zaps the viral RNA in the cell.

Unfortunately the part that it sheds may be the very area that Ifit1 binds to.

In other words, Ifit1 is like a heat-seeking missile, and the target it homes in on is a specific part of the enterovirus genome. But that part of the genome has been removed, so the missile becomes useless.

So that may make non-cytolytic enterovirus RNA more invulnerable to the type I interferon immune response.

Interferon has other mechanisms of action, but this inactivation of viral RNA is an important one.

Whether type III interferon might have better luck in tackling non-cytolytic infection, I am not sure. This paper indicates that both type I and type III interferons are strong inducers of Ifit proteins:
The strongest IFIT inducers are type I IFNs (IFN-α/β) and type III IFNs (IFN-λs), whereas type II IFN (IFN-γ) is much weaker



Other another mechanisms of action of interferon include inducing RNase L, an enzyme which destroys all RNA with the cell, both viral and host (human) RNA.

In ME/CFS, famously this RNase L was shown to have lower molecular weight than normal (small sized molecule), and initially it was thought this could impede its function, making it harder for RNase L to fight viral infections in the cell.

But if I remember correctly, I believe it was later shown that low molecular weight RNase L is actually more effective at destroying RNA.



I've also read about inducing a fever and hot/cold therapy, some study which I cant recall right now had put the subjects under high temperatures and evaluated the interferon production over time. It concluded that at 39 celsius the production was noticeable higher. Does anyone know anything more about this approach?

Then there is an enzyme called DICER which specifically targets viral dsRNA (viral double stranded RNA) in a cell. This viral dsRNA in the cell is generally more resistant to immune attack, so this makes DICER an interesting and useful antiviral enzyme.

It has been found that type II interferon (interferon gamma) boosts DICER expression, but for some reason, type I interferons (like interferon alpha) suppress DICER expression.

Other factors which increase DICER are mild hyperthermia, and intriguingly, aerobic exercise. This may explain that while exercise can be very bad for ME/CFS (making patients crash, and making their ME/CFS worse), it's also possible that it does have these antiviral benefits. Refs: here and here.

DICER is inhibited by reactive oxygen species. Ref: here
 
Messages
56
There is a theory that non-cytolytic enterovirus has become resistant to interferon, due to the tiny deletions that have taken place in the RNA viral genome of non-cytolytic enterovirus (when enterovirus converts from its normal acute form into the chronic persistent non-cytolytic form, it does this by shedding off a tiny part of its RNA genome):


Basically, type I interferons destroy viral RNA inside a cell by sticking some Ifit1 proteins to this RNA. So interferon causes the production of Ifit1, and then Ifit1 then zaps the viral RNA in the cell.

Unfortunately the part that it sheds may be the very area that Ifit1 binds to.

In other words, Ifit1 is like a heat-seeking missile, and the target it homes in on is a specific part of the enterovirus genome. But that part of the genome has been removed, so the missile becomes useless.

So that may make non-cytolytic enterovirus RNA more invulnerable to the type I interferon immune response.

Interferon has other mechanisms of action, but this inactivation of viral RNA is an important one.

Whether type III interferon might have better luck in tackling non-cytolytic infection, I am not sure. This paper indicates that both type I and type III interferons are strong inducers of Ifit proteins:




Other another mechanisms of action of interferon include inducing RNase L, an enzyme which destroys all RNA with the cell, both viral and host (human) RNA.

In ME/CFS, famously this RNase L was shown to have lower molecular weight than normal (small sized molecule), and initially it was thought this could impede its function, making it harder for RNase L to fight viral infections in the cell.

But if I remember correctly, I believe it was later shown that low molecular weight RNase L is actually more effective at destroying RNA.





Then there is an enzyme called DICER which specifically targets viral dsRNA (viral double stranded RNA) in a cell. This viral dsRNA in the cell is generally more resistant to immune attack, so this makes DICER an interesting and useful antiviral enzyme.

It has been found that type II interferon (interferon gamma) boosts DICER expression, but for some reason, type I interferons (like interferon alpha) suppress DICER expression.

Other factors which increase DICER are mild hyperthermia, and intriguingly, aerobic exercise. This may explain that while exercise can be very bad for ME/CFS (making patients crash, and making their ME/CFS worse), it's also possible that it does have these antiviral benefits. Refs: here and here.

DICER is inhibited by reactive oxygen species. Ref: here

Man looks like these enteroviruses are resistent to everything. Could Draco/Vtose theoretically work against enteroviruses?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Man looks like these enteroviruses are resistent to everything. Could Draco/Vtose theoretically work against enteroviruses?

Yes, it could. The action of DRACO/Vtose is keyed on the presence of dsRNA in cells. It is only viral infections which produce dsRNA in cells, so dsRNA is a marker for a virally infected cell.

DRACO/Vtose homes in on that marker, and then destroys the cell.

The only concern would be that in chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infections, there might be too many cells with a low-level infection of dsRNA, so then you might get too many of your cells killed, causing tissue damage.
 
Messages
56
Yes, it could. The action of DRACO/Vtose is keyed on the presence of dsRNA in cells. It is only viral infections which produce dsRNA in cells, so dsRNA is a marker for a virally infected cell.

DRACO/Vtose homes in on that marker, and then destroys the cell.

The only concern would be that in chronic non-cytolytic enterovirus infections, there might be too many cells with a low-level infection of dsRNA, so then you might get too many of your cells killed, causing tissue damage.

Do you know if the lab mentioned by that guy in the Longecity forum really can prepare Draco and ship it?
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Do you know if the lab mentioned by that guy in the Longecity forum really can prepare Draco and ship it?

I don't have a much knowledge of custom peptide or protein synthesis, so can't really offer an opinion.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
18,079
Beta is actually a Type 1 IFN as well.

Yes, but I am saying that when Dr Chia made the comment that he finds interferon does not work for CVB4, that was back in 2009, and I am not sure if he'd tried interferon beta at that time, so not sure if his comments about CVB4 apply to beta.
 

sometexan84

Senior Member
Messages
1,241
Yes, but I am saying that when Dr Chia made the comment that he finds interferon does not work for CVB4, that was back in 2009, and I am not sure if he'd tried interferon beta at that time, so not sure if his comments about CVB4 apply to beta.
Oh, right. Maybe so, no way to know.

God I wish we could book him for a Q&A.

I still think the most likely cause of whatever Dr Chia was seeing w/ his IFN treatment, regarding apparent ineffectiveness on CVB4 has to do w/ tropism to immune cells.

If I were him, in 2005 or 2009, treating the most severe CFS patients w/ enterovirus being found all throughout the body (all positive PBMC), I too probably wouldn't have thought much about minority cell sub-sets, and I prob would have tried treating them w/ the Type I interferons just like he did, as they are ubiquitously expressed throughout the body.
 
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