Video Dr. Byron Hyde - Enterovirus theory?

Justin30

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Why hasnt hydes work been thoroughly investigated?

Is it that severe ME patients fit this model more so?

I personally think he is correct but with the encephalopathy but I also believe it is caused by Other viruses and bacteria.

Well they knew how bad polio is why the heck didb they not make a vaccine for the other Coxsacies viruses?????

Further only one drug ever made for enteroviruses.

I know many feel like GUT had a big part to do with it all but the problem at the end of the line is the is the encephalopathy or encephalomylietis..

No funding, no research, cant even get a PET or SPECT if you live in Canada...good luck....probably just as hard in the UK and other parts of the world.

Absolutely resiculous. This disease should be called "Suffering Disease" as it in most cases never stops keeps you alive and no money goes into it.

Its a joke
 

Hip

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Very interesting video, @Theodore.

The transcript of this Byron Hyde video entitled "Introduction" is here:
My name is Byron Hyde, I'm a physician in Canada, but prior to being a physician I was the geophysical engineer looking at mines; then I became a chemist, and worked in transplantation biochemistry; then I moved to the Sick Children's Hospital in Toronto, where I was chief technician of electron microscope unit; and only then did I become a physician, and that pretty well sums up who I am.

By accident I became involved in ME. Curiously I had a very good friend and his wife were physicians she was the intake physician at McMaster University, and he was a general practitioner. They were white rafting down the Ottawa River and they came to stay with me the day after, and they asked me to come to a party at a hospital in Montreal. I didn't go, and in a way it was fortunate from my point of view, because the party was all physicians and their spouses, and few nurses, and three days later, I got a call from him saying that almost all of the 20 physicians at the hospital at this party had fallen ill with food poisoning.

They all had headaches, they had stomach problems, and then I said, "well, you're obviously going to get better, but when did this all start?" He said: "oh, it's just in the last day or two." I said: "if it was food poisoning, you'd fall ill right away, and it's taken you two or three days to get all of these symptoms?" And he said: "no, it's three or four days."

And so about a week after that, he phoned and told me that we now know what we have: we have ME. And I said what in hell is ME? I had never heard the term before. He said myalgic encephalomyelitis, it's an encephalopathy, it's a brain infection. And I said, I'm curious I've never heard about this. And I sort of forgot about it, until a week later, I had a patient who had also a physician who'd gone to do a house call of two new born twins, and a two-year-old. The woman was a heroin addict and had broken the habit, and hadn't been on heroin for least a few years, and he couldn't get an ambulance take these children to the hospital, so he drove them.

Meanwhile the mother and the three children were coughing nonstop. They hospitalized the children and mother was also hospitalized, and the diagnosis was enterovirus, Coxsackie infection. And I really didn't know anything much about Coxsackie or enteroviruses in those days. And three days after, he drove those ill children and their mother to the hospital, all who had pneumonia from this coxsackievirus, he fell ill.

We hospitalized him in the civic hospital, and the first thing we found was that he was diagnosed with a brain tumor, but it wasn't really a brain tumor, it was just the entire left brain — but particularly the posterior frontal lobe and the temporal lobe — were so dark from inflammation that we thought initially that was a brain tumor. It turned out to be a viral infection, and so we knew the incubation period was three days, and we knew that we were dealing with an enterovirus.

ME can be easily defined by two things: it is an enteroviral infection with an incubation period of three to five days, number one. If you cannot either recover an enterovirus at the onset, or by looking at the gastric mucosa in chronic individuals, they don't have an enteroviral infection. And the second diagnostic criteria of ME is to have a diagnosable inflammation of the brain. Now this is a microvascular inflammation, and you can get it either using a brain SPECT with appropriate software, or a brain PET with appropriate software.

SPECT is much, much less expensive, and there isn't radiation of any importance dealing with it. For instance, if you use the CT scan, you get an enormous amount of gamma radiation; with SPECT and PET there's almost no radiation. And what radiation exists in a PET scan is, they use particles which if you walk outside of your house, you will get a million times more radiation just from the Sun than you would from a PET scan. So radiation is not a problem in SPECT or PET.

So you need two things to define ME, and it's very simple: either recovery of an enterovirus in an acute onset, which is very hard to do, because nobody suspects it; or chronically, by looking at the stomach mucosa, and recovering the capsid protein, which is actually very easy to do if you've had a stomach biopsy, and a lot of these patients have because they have gastric problems immediately after and often chronically with this disease. And two, looking at the brain SPECTs and showing the areas injured.

Well the original definition of ME is quite surprising, because it occurred during an epidemic of polio, probably the third known epidemic of polio, and it occurred in Sweden in 1895, in the Stockholm area, and at that time, during this polio epidemic, something else occurred. And Ivar Wickman, a twenty-three-year-old physician who described it, said something curious is happening: some of these patients are not dying, they're not being paralyzed, but they have pain all over their body, and he called it a neuralgic encephalopathy — which is very close to myalgic encephalopathy, myalgic encephalomyelitis.

But the real breakthrough, historically, came in the first mass epidemic of paralytic polio: there had never been a major polio epidemic; there had never been a polio epidemic before the ones in Sweden that I just mentioned. But in 1905, 1,300 patients in Stockholm area, and 800 people in the Oslo, Norway area, in the same week, fell ill, dying or being paralyzed, with four or five different kinds of polio.

And this is how Ivar Wickman describe them: he described them as: the spinal, which paralyzed the legs usually, but could paralyze the legs and the arms; bulbar polio, which involved the lower brain stem of the brain, and because it affected the ability to breathe, almost all those patients died, usually within hours or days; then there was Landry's polio (his name was changed later on) where you got ascending paralysis, and a large number of those patients also died; but the fourth type of polio, which he called a superior polio or Medin polio (after his boss), was most interesting, because all of these forms of polio occurred at the same time.

The other two forms of polio that he also described, because he actually went around and examined these patients, was a polio which the people picked up the virus, but didn't fall ill, but then gave that poliovirus to other people. And the second one was those who had the symptoms of the first stage of polio, which was the same as the first stages of ME, and got better within a week or two. And that's when the first major epidemic of ME occurred, at the same time as a polio epidemic.
 
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Dechi

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I am a new patient with Dr Hyde. Still too early to tell, but he suspects I might have been infected with Enterovirus 71. We're trying to get me a SPECT scan but so far we have found no machine, not even in Montreal. The newer ones with the new technology are specifically designed for psychiatric anomalies, not physical ones like ME has.

Dr Hyde says there might be a place in Toronto where I could get one, but it's six hours from me. I'll go if I have to.

I hope Dr Hyde does more videos like this one. He's very interesting to listen to !
 

Hip

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I am a new patient with Dr Hyde. Still too early to tell, but he suspects I might have been infected with Enterovirus 71.
I have never heard of enterovirus 71 being associated with ME/CFS.

The types of enterovirus that ME/CFS is usually associated with are the enterovirus B species, which include coxsackievirus B and echovirus. Whereas enterovirus 71 is grouped with the enterovirus A species, along with coxsackievirus A, which is not normally linked to ME/CFS.

You can see the taxonomy of different enterovirus species, from enterovirus A to enterovirus J here.
 

Dechi

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I have never heard of enterovirus 71 being associated with ME/CFS.

The types of enterovirus that ME/CFS is usually associated with are the enterovirus B species, which include coxsackievirus B and echovirus. Whereas enterovirus 71 is grouped with the enterovirus A species, along with coxsackievirus A, which is not normally linked to ME/CFS.

You can see the taxonomy of different enterovirus species, from enterovirus A to enterovirus J here.
I am just repeating what Dr Hyde said. He was thinking enterovirus 68 or 71, 71 being most probable. I'll look at your link. I haven't found any documented link between ME and enterovirus 72 either, so far.
 
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Hip

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He was thinking enterovirus 68 or 71, 71 being most probable.
Enterovirus 68 is an enterovirus D species, again not linked to ME/CFS as far as I am aware (I have never seen studies or heard of individual patients with ME/CFS associated with enterovirus A or enterovirus D). Though I guess that might be because nobody has really looked.

Enterovirus D is an interesting species, though, as the viruses in this grouping have characteristics of both enteroviruses and rhinoviruses (the common cold virus).
 

Hip

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It is interesting that Dr Byron Hyde's own definition of ME excludes viruses other than enterovirus, and excludes patients who do not have inflammation of the brain showing up in their SPECT or PET scans.

I wonder if anyone has examined CCC-defined patients, especially those whose ME/CFS is classed as severe (on the scale of mild, moderate and severe), and checked whether they have brain inflammation showing in their SPECT or PET scans.

I am just wondering how Hyde's definition of ME maps onto the CCC definition.
 

Justin30

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I am just wondering how Hyde's definition of ME maps onto the CCC definition.
I think he feels its to wide of a definition I think I read this from the hummingbird foundation.

I feel that Hyde is correct in that an direct hit to the brain and CNS occurs.

That said I think that other viruses do this as well.

Its like a mild vascular injury to the brain and brain stem which alters homeostasis.

Irregardless a vaccine should have been created for all these common viruses such as Entero to herpes.

Dont forget to that an encephalopathy directly impedes mito function. As does a mito disease.

I have this feeling that the insult disturbs the BBB and allows proinflamaory cytokines to continuosly get into the brain and spinal cord. If the inflmation is lowered or stopped then symptoms disappear.

@Hip you mentioned so much about Microglial inhibitors and I feel these in whatever for are the key to success in a significant proportion of those with many neuro symptoms.

I wish a more large scale study would look at encephalopathy and neuroinflamation and then work backwards to find treatments.

I also think that the people in power know that common viruses lead to ME and as a result would not like to let this out as it would lead to mass histeria and a huge demand by healthy people to have a plan of action. Well this costs money and time.

People with ME are great for the economy as we try so many therapies and supplements.

Just my thoughts.
 

Chrisb

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It is somewhat surprising to see that the doctors involved in the case he describes seem to have diagnosed themselves with ME within a fortnight of infection. I wonder why at that stage they would not have considered themselves to be suffering from a particular enterovirus rather than ME. No mention is made of the subsequent course of the illness and whether it went on to become chronic in all of them, or whether they in fact recovered.

In general I am an admirer of Dr Hyde, and I recognise the limitations imposed by the time available to him, but this video just leaves one wanting to ask questions.
 

Dolphin

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Why hasnt hydes work been thoroughly investigated?
I think Dr Hyde's work would have had more influence if he had published more.
He has published virtually no research papers in the last 20 years.

As I understand it, you pay the Nightingale Research Foundation to see him:
http://www.nightingale.ca/index.php?target=researchpatients

In such a scenario I think there is an onus on them and him to publish more. Making statements in videos and at meetings isn't the best way to influence a research field.
 

Dechi

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I think Dr Hyde's work would have had more influence if he had published more.
He has published virtually no research papers in the last 20 years.

As I understand it, you pay the Nightingale Research Foundation to see him:
http://www.nightingale.ca/index.php?target=researchpatients

In such a scenario I think there is an onus on them and him to publish more. Making statements in videos and at meetings isn't the best way to influence a research field.
There is no fee to see Dr Hyde at his office. It's covered by medicare if you are canadian. The fees described on his website are for a skype meeting if for whatever reason you can't wait to see him or he is too far away, or you are abroad. Dr Hyde is a very generous and caring man. More so than any doctor I have ever seen in my entire life, and I am almost half a century old ! ;-)

Also, we are very lucky that he is still practicing. He looks like a 60 year old but he is not. He is in great physical condition and his mind is very sharp. I don't know of many men his age still working so hard and with such passion, in fact I know of none. This might explain the lack of publishing. He is probably devoting his time to directly helping sick and very sick people.
 

Gamboa

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I have been a patient of Dr.Hyde's for the last few years and was thoroughly investigated by him. And I do mean thoroughly!

This was was really only possible, however, since I live in Ottawa, where he lives part of the time, and I am an Ontario resident, so the tests he ordered were available free ( for the most part) under OHIP. This has very likely changed since the Ontario government has been continually clamping down on medical expenses and Dr.Hyde was running up against a brick wall. (This was nothing new to him, by the way. He has been up against walls and knocking them down and scrambling around finding alternative routes for things his entire career. I think he loves a challenge :) )

He knows and corresponds with Dr.Chia in California who does the most research, as far as I know, concerning the link between enterovirus and ME. And I say ME here because Dr. Hyde does believe ME is a distinct disease and CFS is a group of other illnesses, very often a misdiagnosis.

As for the misdiagnosis angle, when I first went to see Dr. Hyde, he sent me for a multitude of tests-extensive blood work, cardiac work up, SPECT scan ( in Toronto), full body MRI, 2 day CPET studies ( I did 2 of them!! One in Ithaca and another a year later at the Ottawa Heart Institute- both via Dr.Hyde). He referred me to a neurologist, pulmonologist, cardiologist, another cardiologist who specializes in autonomic dysfunction-in Hamilton, hematologist and more I can't remember.

Back to the enterovirus--Dr.Hyde was sending all samples of gastric biopsies that patients had had done previously or via him to Dr Chia for testing. Prior to seeing Dr Hyde I had seen a gastroenterologist for Celiac Disease and had had a gastric biopsy done. My sample was obtained from the lab and sent to California but was rejected for some reason to do with how it was processed. Unfortunately I was not able to get a result unless I have another gastric biopsy done, not a simple or cheap procedure. As far as I know Dr. Hyde was getting results back from other patients.

At the IACFS/ME Conference this October in Fort Lauderdale Dr Chia is giving a workshop all about his research and findings on Enterovirus and ME/CFS. I am attending the conference this year and attended the last 2. Dr. Hyde will most likely be there as well and I would expect will be at this particular workshop.
 

halcyon

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I think Dr Hyde's work would have had more influence if he had published more.
He has published virtually no research papers in the last 20 years.
I don't think he has had much to add. His theories are not his alone (on enterovirus + SPECT etc.). He has worked with James Mowbray in the past, and John Chia more recently, both of whom have strong evidence published in the literature. It's just sitting there waiting for someone else to acknowledge it and do something with it. Sad to know that the upcoming NIH post infectious study and OMF big data study will have no enterovirus serology performed and no tissue testing. Again and again this viable hypothesis is left behind in favor of herpes viruses, which many experts say likely have nothing to do with ME but are then included in the research anyways.

His contribution of publishing the proceedings of the Cambridge ME symposium in 1992 is still valuable to this day and I think every patient should read that book.
 

Justin30

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I think Dr Hyde's work would have had more influence if he had published more.
He has published virtually no research papers in the last 20 years.

As I understand it, you pay the Nightingale Research Foundation to see him:
http://www.nightingale.ca/index.php?target=researchpatients

In such a scenario I think there is an onus on them and him to publish more. Making statements in videos and at meetings isn't the best way to influence a research field.
I totally agree they need to publish their findings.
 

Theodore

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Very interesting video, @Theodore.

The transcript of this Byron Hyde video is here:
I am sorry, maybe it's due to my english level but I don't understand this part of the transcript : "So you need two things to define ME, and it's very simple: either recovery of an enterovirus in an acute onset, which is very hard to do, because nobody suspects it; or chronically, by looking at the stomach mucosa, and recovering the capsid protein, which is actually very easy to do if you've had a stomach biopsy, and a lot of these patients have because they have gastric problems immediately after and often chronically with this disease."

"You need two things to define ME, either recovery of an enterovirus"? How can a recovery can help a diagnostic?