Update on Karina.

[Sidereal]

In Europe physicians don't live in constant fear of being sued which has its disadvantages like in this case where the psychiatrist acts like he is god. Totally untouchable and he knows it.

People here are much more accepting of medical malpractice than in the US.

I like that idea, and might even consider it were she my daughter. However, I doubt anyone would grant her asylum.

Maybe Russia. Denmark is not that far from Kaliningrad. I'm sure you could even find someone to give you cyclophosphamide there.

 

[Ren]

I think cultural issues are at play too.

From an outsider perspective (and many things in life are double-edged swords of course - so there's much good as well), Scandinavian societies can feel intensely focused on conformity and unquestioning obedience to state experts. Maybe it's akin to how people can behave within a strict religious framework. It's blasphemous to question the state or its holy experts. (Exaggerated for simplicity.)


As far as moving the patient along in order to empty the bed, this happens in socialized healthcare systems.

First though, a person in need of care may never even be accepted as a patient and deemed worthy of care. You can save a lot of money be redefining what care is needed - by denying that care is needed.

I'm also not sure our societies even know what proper care is. In private care, the patient risks being over-treated as there is financial gain for hospitals/doctors/pharma (?) for this. In public care, the patient risks being under-treated as a society will only tolerate "wasting" so much public money on sick people, who as far as I can tell are largely regarded as subhuman.

The system becomes Animal Farm.


I don't believe Karina has been seen as an individual, as a human deserving of human rights. I believe she has been regarded as a specimen. And with the mantra of conformity and unquestioning obedience to state experts also comes the mantra of "for the greater good." So those in power have felt that they have a right to play god, as they believe they know what is best for everyone - and/or don't care and are greedy or crave status. And if society doesn't hold them accountable, they are above the law.

I'm sure that what has been spent on Karina is nothing compared to disability insurances and biomedical treatments, etc. for the tens-of-thousands to millions of Karina's. She was an investment to them - a tool for a "greater" purpose.

Regarding her diagnosis, I believe they ignored ME and labeled her with PAWS - some kind of extremely rare psych diagnosis for children. I also believe they tried (and maybe did) deny her legal representation, saying that she was never sane enough to choose a lawyer.

Maybe one framework for looking at things is that insurance/pharma are ranchers, politicians/doctors (generally/often) are the varying status levels of ranch hands, and we the proles are their cattle to be farmed for profit. Also, those in power try not to spook the cattle [edit - when it fits their purposes], not bc they care about/respect the cattle, but bc calm cattle are easier to control.



As far as liberating Karina - maybe someone should write to "Krysztof Rutkowski" -
http://www.thelocal.no/20111109/action-hero-rescues-kid-from-foster-care and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krzysztof_Rutkowski

 

[Alea Ishikawa]

I thought perhaps medical staff declared "brain damage" due to a misinterpretation of her brain scan.

Per Dr. Myhill (emphasis mine):

In October 2007 I attended a conference sponsored by the late Dr John Richardson. A Canadian physician Dr Byron Hyde showed us some functional scans of the brains of CFS patients. If I had not known the diagnosis, I would have diagnosed strokes. This is because the blood supply to some area of the brain was so impaired.

Then I read some of this article. Did anything come of Dr. Nigel Speight trying to get in there to give a 2nd opinion and hopefully rescue her?

From last year:

Even though Hansen has been diagnosed with ME on numerous occasions, the research clinic doctors have now changed the diagnosis to pervasive arousal withdrawal syndrome (PAWS) . . . a very rare “child psychiatric disorder” about which little is known or been written about. Symptoms include resisting help and withdrawing socially.

This is so awful. I have difficulty grasping at the reality of it.

 

[taniaaust1]

Then I read some of this article. Did anything come of Dr. Nigel Speight trying to get in there to give a 2nd opinion and hopefully rescue her?

As far as I know about this case, they never allowed any ME specialist to give a second opinion. They've kept her well away from anyone who could dispute her diagnoses (and obviously by keeping her in isolation, they are still doing that. Maybe that is the whole reason why they keep her in isolation, so what they've done cant be disputed??).

 

[taniaaust1]

The analogy might not be directly applicable. But can she be prevented from leaving the country? Could crowdfunding raise the money for a private flight with medical facilities, and accommodation and care in another country?

I honestly think she's probably so sick at this point she couldnt be moved. I know how bad I get when I severely crash, any movement sends me into like seizures as its brain overload. When I was extremely severe, my young children couldnt even hug me due to the all over body pain which was severe (the sheets on my bed hurt me).

If Katrina is like how I was with the ME (I can only assume she is), she probably couldnt even be picked up due to pain or moved for various ME reasons.

And for authorities allowing a private plane with medical facilities to take her away even if she could be moved, I cant imagine it. She would not be able to fly on such a plane without medical approval from doctors etc.

 

[taniaaust1]

For a patient to be hospitalized against their will it is called being placed on a 72 Hour Hold which in my state is called a 5150. They have to meet one of three criteria: danger to self, danger to others, or grave disability.

@MeSci

A severe ME person (as far as those with psych beliefs of this illness go) could be classified as a danger to themselves if they are too sick to get themselves food and water etc. If they believe its mental health issue ie "CFS in England" preventing someone being able to look after themeselves eg get water, they could easily be locked up.

This example of seeing severe ME patients as a danger to themselves could happen anywhere in the world. Its just fortunate you dont see this in America as I think the knowledge around ME/CFS is slightly better then how its seen in England and hence you dont see things like this going on.

 

[taniaaust1]

Has anyone tried to educate him?

People like these psychs... do not want to be educated esp after doing things like that as they would have to accept just how terribly abusive they have been.

I had a psych not long ago going off who spent half an hour trying to convince my doctor I didnt have any physical health problems, just cause he didnt believe in ME/CFS. No doubt he didnt listen at all to my doctor.

If people like Wessely could of been educated, they would of been educated a very long time ago.

The only way I think they would get an education is if they had their ME patients dying on them. Brain damage, they'll just blame that on something else ie bad affect of a drug or whatever. They will get away with leaving ME patients severely brain damaged and paralysed (as they will just blame psych issue on the paralyses and say even that is in the persons mind).

One thing we've seen in the past in various countries where this is happened, they often do let the ME patients out of hospital when they are so sick that they are close to dying, they then go home and die soon after (by letting them out at that point, the hospital dont look as if its to blame!). I can think of two cases in which that happened.

 

[MeSci]

You are an optimist, I'll give you that.

Yes, I'm sure she would be prevented from leaving the country. She would be arrested, along with her rescuers, and brought back.

I was simply asking questions. I believe in exploring all possibilities, especially in a dire situation such as this.

 

[Valentijn]

This example of seeing severe ME patients as a danger to themselves could happen anywhere in the world. Its just fortunate you dont see this in America as I think the knowledge around ME/CFS is slightly better then how its seen in England and hence you dont see things like this going on.

Actually there's more general ignorance of ME/CFS in the US than there in Europe, and maybe even more than in Australia.

Adult ME patients don't get locked up in the US because of 1) fear of lawsuits, and 2) there's a lot less societal concern about people starving to death on the streets, especially if a mental illness is perceived to be involved. This also means that it can be a lot harder to get assistance of any sort.

 

[CantThink]

I was thinking about this and wondering...

What is being done legally to get Karina out? Why hasn't this case been taken to the European Court of Human Rights? (E.g. If the Danish government and judicial system are unwilling to resolve it, or their has been a ruling in favour of her continued sectioning).

There are organisations such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, plus human rights lawyers/barristers that the M.E. community could approach in the hope of garnering help... However, in order to do so we'd need to know if doing this was appropriate (I.e. has not already been tried and that behind the scenes is stalemate legally in Denmark etc).

 

[taniaaust1]

I was thinking about this and wondering...

What is being done legally to get Karina out? Why hasn't this case been taken to the European Court of Human Rights? (E.g. If the Danish government and judicial system are unwilling to resolve it, or their has been a ruling in favour of her continued sectioning).

There are organisations such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, plus human rights lawyers/barristers that the M.E. community could approach in the hope of garnering help... However, in order to do so we'd need to know if doing this was appropriate (I.e. has not already been tried and that behind the scenes is stalemate legally in Denmark etc).

Maybe their needs to be a ME campaign set up directed at, begging Amnesty to do something about these cases. If they heard about Katrina's case from many and that this is going on all around the world and kills us at times, maybe they then would step in.

 

[Gingergrrl]

I was thinking about this and wondering...

What is being done legally to get Karina out? Why hasn't this case been taken to the European Court of Human Rights? (E.g. If the Danish government and judicial system are unwilling to resolve it, or their has been a ruling in favour of her continued sectioning).

There are organisations such as Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, plus human rights lawyers/barristers that the M.E. community could approach in the hope of garnering help... However, in order to do so we'd need to know if doing this was appropriate (I.e. has not already been tried and that behind the scenes is stalemate legally in Denmark etc).

I was wondering the same thing b/c Karina is an adult and she has family willing and able to provide proper care at home (or at a facility of their own choice.) In the U.S., her parents would file for legal conservatorship and they would make medical and financial decisions for her if she is not able. Why doesn't Karina have that right? Once it was established that she is not a danger to herself or others and has another option for care, they cannot legally hold her there. Could Amnesty International or a human rights agency help her? Has this been tried?

 

[CantThink]

@taniaaust1 @Gingergrrl

I would be up for trying to organise an approach to Amnesty and other human rights organisations etc, however I feel we can only do this if we know a bit more about what's already been legally done and her parents' wishes.

I am not sure who the contact for Karina is or how to find this info about what's already been done/tried out. I read the Co Cure list thread slowly and that was enlightening, but it still didn't answer these aspects.

Edited to add: I might try contacting the Facebook pager via PM and ask them.

 

[Gingergrrl]

@CantThink I am not as up to date on this case as others and do not know what has legally been tried or what her parents wishes would be (re: an amnesty group involved). I am not quite sure how we find this out? Is there anyone on PR who is from Denmark and might know more inside details?

 

[Art Vandelay]

There's an update today on Karina on the Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForKarinaHansen/posts/845502842177841

 

[Esther12]

Can only hope that this improves soon.

 

[Sidereal]

I was wondering the same thing b/c Karina is an adult and she has family willing and able to provide proper care at home (or at a facility of their own choice.) In the U.S., her parents would file for legal conservatorship and they would make medical and financial decisions for her if she is not able. Why doesn't Karina have that right?

Because her family are deemed to be causing/perpetuating her "psychosomatic" illness.

EDIT: From the Facebook update post:

However, Christensen and Fink refused to believe that ME patients can be as severely ill as Karina is. They did not believe that exercise and other forms of stimulation could make her worse. They doubted she had ME. They chose to misinterpret her symptoms as signs of physical and psychological neglect from her parents.

Two reports that have recently come to light show that the Danish Board of Health became convinced that if Karina was removed from her parents, Christensen and Fink could cure her. It was claimed that it was highly likely that Karina’s parents were holding her at home against her will and that the treatments they were giving her were damaging her. No evidence of these outrageous allegations has ever come to light and no charges have ever been filed against her family, as they surely would have been if Karina’s parents had neglected or abused her. Karina’s parents were treating her severe ME after the advice of ME experts. The ME experts’ approach to severe ME is recommended by the NICE guidelines which the Danish Board of Health has repeatedly said it supports.

 

[Valentijn]

Because her family are deemed to be causing/perpetuating her "psychosomatic" illness.

The difference is that in the US, consenting adults would be allowed to theoretically cause eachothers' symptoms. Especially if the "victim" wants to live in that situation and has no obvious psychiatric dysfunction or intellectual disability.

 

[Gingergrrl]

The difference is that in the US, consenting adults would be allowed to theoretically cause eachothers' symptoms. Especially if the "victim" wants to live in that situation and has no obvious psychiatric dysfunction or intellectual disability.

Exactly! This is what I was trying to express. If you are over 18 and not a danger to yourself or others or gravely disabled without caregivers, etc, then you have the legal right and free will to do what you want which includes making bad choices. The state cannot intervene and wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on. I don't mean that Karina or her parents were making a bad choice but even if they were, it would be their own choice to make.

 

[Sidereal]

Well, it seems they've re-diagnosed her with some psych condition and decided she does not have capacity to make decisions. That strips her of the right to have free will and make bad choices, in Europe at least. If "bad" decisions like "choosing" to stay in bed all day, not engage in self care/grooming/feeding etc. are deemed to be the result of mental incapacity, then the mental health legislation over here gives them the right to make her what in Ireland we call a ward of court. Seems Denmark is much the same in that the state has appointed her a "guardian".

From the attending psychiatrist's perspective she is a danger to herself because there's no obvious organic pathology that would make her as incapacitated as she and her family say she is. The family are seen as a danger because they're seen as enabling her or making her sick in the first place with their thoughts and behaviours. It sounds insane when you spell it out like this but this is what psychosomatic medicine thinks of us.

There is no accepted test or scan that proves she is ill. We're all familiar with this problem. We know she is ill, and the small bubble of ME/CFS physicians who treat us know we're ill, but remember, the rest of the world thinks we're crazy and all they see is normal routine blood test results. Short of proving to the guardian/court that ME is an organic disease and that she has it, which they will most likely be unable to do given the current state of the research evidence, I don't know what the family can do. Arguing that ME has a neurological ICD-10 designation is of no practical use whatsoever since there is currently no compelling evidence to support the decision that was made decades ago to classify it as such. In the UK, the government has stated that they follow the official G93.3 classification yet that has not stopped people with ME being sectioned in psychiatric wards.

I think it would be better to try to make a case that regardless of one's beliefs about the aetiology of her symptoms, the treatment has objectively made her worse and is clearly not working so it would be in her best interests to be discharged from the institution she is currently in. It may also be possible to side-step the whole ME controversy and just focus on certain symptoms, perhaps try to prove objective abnormalities. She is too ill to undergo a 2-day CPET but perhaps a tilt table test would be useful to show dysautonomia. I'd be surprised if she didn't have low blood volume, neurally mediated hypotension, postural tachycardia syndrome, or something of this nature, although there was a thread on PR about a man in the UK who was still sectioned in a psych hospital despite having a diagnosis of POTS. I suppose the psychiatrists would claim that autonomic problems arose from prolonged inactivity.

My heart goes out to the family. This is the stuff of nightmares. I must say when I was severely ill, I stopped interacting with the medical profession completely and did not go to my GP ever, not even for an unrelated problem, because I know how the system works and was afraid of falling into the state's clutches like this. I think it's preferable to stay under the radar and risk dying of a preventable cause in one's own bed/home instead of being tortured by nurses and physiotherapists in some hospital ward.