Update on Karina.

[CantThink]

They probably get money on the amount of patients they handle. So it's a clinical decision who to treat. The government is not involved in this. The clinic just have a budget and spend it how they see fit.

They can't just stop treating a patient because they do want to pay anymore. As long as the patient is ill, they have to treat them.

This is how it works in England as well. It is also why it is hard to access treatment/care if the doctors don't agree you need it (as in it's all in your mind so you don't need tests or help) - you can't just go try another place easily... It's all very controlled.

 

[chipmunk1]

I read an interview with Fink. He doesn't believe in psychosomatic medicine as in the mind creating physical problems. He is aware that there are real physical problems that can be seen on brain scans, it's just that in his opinion CBT/GET is the most likely to help for so called "functional disorders". He says they actually don't use medication very often at his clinis, as he finds them ineffective for these disorders. I am not defending his methods, but I think it's important to get the criticism right. He actually dismisses a lot of criticism on these grounds.

i would not believe anything he says. Didn't per Fink say something like worsening of physical symptoms from his therapy was the patient's way of communicating inner conflicts and distress?

They talk neurobabble in public to sell their idea and for PR reasons and when no one is watching them they use Psychoanalysis.

 

[CantThink]

This is from the Facebook page - https://m.facebook.com/JusticeForKarinaHansen

The procedure was the same as it was in the Neurocenter; A member of the staff goes alone in to see Karina, asking if she wants visitors, and returns saying she does not. We asked permission to hear Karina herself say she refuses a visit from us, but the staff strongly denied us this.

From reading the page and comments, it seems as if no one from 'her side' has actually seen her... Since when I don't know... That is incredibly disturbing.

 

[mango]

here are more details about the legality of the forced hospitalization of karina:
https://listserv.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1409a&L=co-cure&F=&S=&P=9112
(has been discussed in other threads here on the forum before)

 

[CantThink]

Also from this site (which presents the whole case chronologically - easy to understand): http://www.diagnosticrights.org/1491-2/karina-hansens-painful-fight-for-justice/

Karina’s sister, a nurse who’s cared for her in the past, was permitted a visit in April 2013, when she agreed to overtly support the current treatment approach, but she found herself unable to keep from breaking down in tears when she saw how severely Karina had declined. She reports that Karina is too severely ill to communicate, and did not seem to recognize her sister.

Only people who support the clinic's approach to treatment were allowed to visit. I am unsure if this has since changed.

 

[MeSci]

If this was someone threatened with the law for an alleged crime, they might seek refuge in an embassy and from there seek asylum, as Julian Assange has.

I take it that Karina isn't under armed guard? What would happen if someone tried to get past her 'warders' and 'spring' her?

 

[adreno]

I take it that Karina isn't under armed guard? What would happen if someone tried to get past her 'warders' and 'spring' her?

I like that idea, and might even consider it were she my daughter. However, I doubt anyone would grant her asylum.

 

[CantThink]

If this was someone threatened with the law for an alleged crime, they might seek refuge in an embassy and from there seek asylum, as Julian Assange has.

I take it that Karina isn't under armed guard? What would happen if someone tried to get past her 'warders' and 'spring' her?

I think getting in and out would be difficult. Karina was moved there on a gurney, and when she was taken outside for her 'fresh air and sunlight' time (as part of her treatment) she was wheeled out in her bed. I read she used the covers to pull over her head due to her photosensitivity. So even if you could get into the facility, getting her out would be complicated.

 

[MeSci]

I think getting in and out would be difficult. Karina was moved there on a gurney, and when she was taken outside for her 'fresh air and sunlight' time (as part of her treatment) she was wheeled out in her bed. I read she used the covers to pull over her head due to her photosensitivity. So even if you could get into the facility, getting her out would be complicated.

I don't think such problems would be insurmountable. I fear that her life may be at risk if she is not rescued.

 

[MeSci]

I like that idea, and might even consider it were she my daughter. However, I doubt anyone would grant her asylum.

The analogy might not be directly applicable. But can she be prevented from leaving the country? Could crowdfunding raise the money for a private flight with medical facilities, and accommodation and care in another country?

 

[adreno]

The analogy might not be directly applicable. But can she be prevented from leaving the country? Could crowdfunding raise the money for a private flight with medical facilities, and accommodation and care in another country?

You are an optimist, I'll give you that.

Yes, I'm sure she would be prevented from leaving the country. She would be arrested, along with her rescuers, and brought back.

 

[Gingergrrl]

Health care in Denmark is state run and state owned and state paid for and state everything. It's a totally different system to what exists in the U.S.

Denmark, and Scandinavian countries in general, are extremely big on biopsychosocial stuff and somataform disorders of every shape and kind. Getting 'treatment' for somataform disorders is really easy as there is a clinic on every street corner.

GP's are big on this whole somataform thing as well. If you have ME, perhaps it would be wise not to consider relocating to Denmark.

As for Karina, words fail me. It's just too terrible. Stay strong Karina, you haven't been forgotten.

@green_monster Thank you for explaining the Danish system to me and it is so drastically different than the system I worked in in the US that it is hard to grasp.

We do not have "somatoform clinics" or anything even remotely like that. For a patient to be hospitalized against their will it is called being placed on a 72 Hour Hold which in my state is called a 5150. They have to meet one of three criteria: danger to self, danger to others, or grave disability.

The third would not apply if the person had caregivers providing their basic needs but could apply if the person lived alone or was being abused by caregivers. But in any scenario it is short lived. There are very few psych beds here and people should be treated equally regardless of their insurance but sadly that is not the case.

There are times when a patients insurance denies the hospitalization, even when the person is on a hold, and a doctor then breaks the hold allowing the person to go home. This would not happen with a wealthy private pay patient. (I guess in Europe the word is sanctioned versus being on a hold?)

I never heard of a case (with an adult over 18 yrs old) who did not meet criteria for a hold and did not have a parity diagnosis who was kept in a locked psych hospital longer than 72 hours b/c there is no law that would cover this and the doctors know it. If they met all criteria, then the hold could be extended but still only on a temporary basis.

There are long term care facilities but these are unlocked and the person would have visitors and full patient rights (and also few beds available with long waiting lists.).

I guess I am comparing apples and oranges and in a system like Denmark that is not for profit (and the hospital is paid by the government regardless how they use the money vs. each patients insurance paying them) then they have different priorities. And believe me the for profit system is often not in the best interest of the patient either.

I guess this should be on another thread and I will stop now so we can talk about poor Karina. I am trying to make her case fit into the system that I know and it can't be done b/c what happened to her is a crime against humanity but the world doesn't see it (kind of like CFS/ME itself.)

 

[chipmunk1]

We do not have "somatoform clinics" or anything even remotely like that. For a patient to be hospitalized against their will it is called being placed on a 72 Hour Hold which in my state is called a 5150. They have to meet one of three criteria: danger to self, danger to others, or grave disability.

The situation in denmark is not so much different believe. That is not the problem. you have to be insane and a danger to yourself to be hospitalized against your will.

the problem is that in this case is what they did was clearly illegal but they chose to ignore it and got away with it.

Karina saw 3 psychiatrists and no one diagnosed her with a mental illness or anything close to insanity. 2 felt she was perfectly sane and one doctor from the hammel neurocenter felt she was developing somatoform disorder. Somatoform disorder of course is not defined or classified as insanity in medicine.

The question of when forced hospitalization of sick people can legally
happen is exhaustively regulated by the Mental Health Act, where Act
§5 can be described as a special emergency rule related to mentally
ill people. These can only be committed if they are insane or in a
very similar condition, and if it further is essential for their
health (on yellow paper, see above), or if the person is a danger to
themselves or others (red papers, see above)

Sick people can therefore only be legally committed to the hospital,
if the provisions of the Mental Health Act, especially when emergency
legal provision §5 are met. There is no place for the general
emergency rule in the Penal Code §14, in the case of coercion against
sick people.

As mentioned above, it is twice previously found that the Mental
Health Act rules for forced hospitalization could not be applied to
Karina's case, simply because she was not insane nor in a very similar
condition.

This seems to be further supported by the above-cited records from
Psychiatrist Ole Nielsen and NBC.

This is also supported by the fact that NBC, shortly after the forced
hospitalization, shall explicitly have stated that Karina was not
psychotic (insane).

you can learn more about this here:

https://listserv.nodak.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind1409a&L=co-cure&F=&S=&P=9112

 

[Gingergrrl]

the problem is that in this case is what they did was clearly illegal but they chose to ignore it and got away with it.

@chipmunk1 I assumed it was illegal and that our systems can't be that different but how are they getting away with this crime? That is the part I do not understand? I asked about insurance b/c here the insurance would have stopped paying when it was clear the patient did not meet criteria and then the hospital would pressure the doctor to get the patient out to free up the bed (which also sounds harsh but is true here.)

 

[chipmunk1]

@chipmunk1 I assumed it was illegal and that our systems can't be that different but how are they getting away with this crime? That is the part I do not understand? )

i don't either. i think they could be relying on one single expert stating that she is insane even when there is no evidence that this is the case and several other experts disagree with that view. I think in psychiatry objective evidence is worth less than expert opinion.

it's clear that Karina could not have suffered from overt insanity because the other 3 psychiatrist would not have missed this. basically what it comes down to is that they are right because they are psychiatrists and therefore their actions are justified even when viewed objectively they are not. perhaps they have even invented a new definiton of insanity that no one except them is qualified enough to understand.

 

[CantThink]

I agree with chipmunk1, that is how it seems to me...

I was really disturbed to read on the Co Cure list that at the time that Karina was sectioned, the then health minister approved it - as in she was made well aware if it and had the power to do something but in fact did not... There is now a new health minister, who has been contacted by IiME, but from whom there is no response.

 

[beaker]

You are an optimist, I'll give you that.

Yes, I'm sure she would be prevented from leaving the country. She would be arrested, along with her rescuers, and brought back.

Maybe it would get some international press ? Shine a big light on it.
Such wishful thinking.

Where is James Bond when you need him. sigh.

 

[Valentijn]

I like that idea, and might even consider it were she my daughter. However, I doubt anyone would grant her asylum.

The US might, especially if appealing to certain anti-government anti-socialist factions. They were the ones who really got on board regarding Justina Pelletier. Their blind hatred and blaming of "liberals" gets a bit tiresome, but they generally have good intentions and can be very useful in these sorts of cases.

 

[Valentijn]

@chipmunk1 I assumed it was illegal and that our systems can't be that different but how are they getting away with this crime? That is the part I do not understand? I asked about insurance b/c here the insurance would have stopped paying when it was clear the patient did not meet criteria and then the hospital would pressure the doctor to get the patient out to free up the bed (which also sounds harsh but is true here.)

The problem isn't insurance. The problem is that in the US such a clinic would get sued out of existence. People are not as willing to file lawsuits in Europe, and they really need to get over that mentality. The clinics and even government agencies need to fear the consequences if they allow their employees to do the wrong thing. Bad media hurts a bit, but lawsuits can destroy. They need to fear that destruction.

 

[Gingergrrl]

The problem isn't insurance. The problem is that in the US such a clinic would get sued out of existence. People are not as willing to file lawsuits in Europe, and they really need to get over that mentality. The clinics and even government agencies need to fear the consequences if they allow their employees to do the wrong thing. Bad media hurts a bit, but lawsuits can destroy. They need to fear that destruction.

@Valentijn I was asking about insurance b/c I was trying to figure out who was paying for a two year hospitalization and did not realize it was more of a clinic than a locked inpatient psych hospital.

I can't imagine a clinic in the US getting away with this for the very reason you said, they would quickly get sued out of existence.